White painted rims on the wheels of PO wagons - how prevelant?

[billbedford]

I'm tempted to say that the ballast wagon is painted either green or blue for just the way orthochromatic films worked. 

[Caley Jim]

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

I'm tempted to say that the ballast wagon is painted either green or blue for just the way orthochromatic films worked. 

What leads you to that idea?  I have never seen any suggestion that CR wagons were other than red oxide (apart from gunpowder vans, which were bright red).  It may well have faded to a more pinkish hue, or have a patina of grey ballast dust.  The CR made extensive use of slag ballast which was readily available as a by-product of the iron and steel industry.

 

Jim

[billbedford]

1/ Mike Williams gives the date of the first official note of Caly goods wagon livery as 1899, which seems very late to me. 

2/ It was not uncommon for railway companies to paint their engineers' wagons a different colour than their revenue wagons. 

3/ Late nineteenth-century photographic emulsions were orthochromatic meaning they over-exposed the red end of the spectrum and under-exposed the blue. ie reds, yellows and browns were darker than expected and blues, especially, paler. Hence photos of Caly locos tend to show up paler than locos of other companies. As an example of wagon colours here is a photo of Carr Wagon Works in Doncaster. The GN revenue wagon livery was red oxide, similar to the Caly's, and the engineers were painted oxford blue. The ballast wagon in the photo was probably ex-works, but the contrast between the lettering and the body colour is much the same as in the photo above

 

 

[Compound2632]

I've had a quick browse through Ian Pope's PO Wagons of Gloucestershire, which abounds in Gloucester RC&W Co. products. The majority of Gloucester officials show white-rimmed wheels but with one exception, evidently a posed photo showing newly-delivered wagons, photos of wagons in traffic are invariable without white-rimmed wheels - in several instances either the same wagon as in the official photo or one from the same batch.

 

From that I conclude that there was no operational reason for maintaining the wheel-rims white.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I've had a quick browse through Ian Pope's PO Wagons of Gloucestershire, which abounds in Gloucester RC&W Co. products. The majority of Gloucester officials show white-rimmed wheels but with one exception, evidently a posed photo showing newly-delivered wagons, photos of wagons in traffic are invariable without white-rimmed wheels - in several instances either the same wagon as in the official photo or one from the same batch.

 

From that I conclude that there was no operational reason for maintaining the wheel-rims white.

 

Stephen - thank you, that's just the info I need. Much appreciated.

 

Nick.

[Penlan]

..... and when did the end of the brake levers need to be painted white?
In the Glouc., wagon book, most but NOT all the white tyred wagons had white brake lever ends.
A quick glance showed those with unpainted wheel rims

didn't seem to have white brake lever ends.  All E.& O.E. 🥴

Edited May 24, 2022 by Penlan

[33C]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

..... and when did the end of the brake levers need to be painted white?
In the Glouc., wagon book, most but NOT all the white tyred wagons had white brake lever ends.
A quick glance showed those with unpainted wheel rims

didn't seem to have white brake lever ends.  All E.& O.E. 🥴

Wartime? Black out? 🤔

[Compound2632]

33 minutes ago, 33C said:

Wartime? Black out? 🤔

 

Most of the wagons in the Gloucester book referred to, with white brake handle ends in the Gloucester official photos, were built in the 1890s and 1900s, so clearly not.

 

This seems to have been another practice that was not maintained on wagons in traffic. 

[magmouse]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Most of the wagons in the Gloucester book referred to, with white brake handle ends in the Gloucester official photos, were built in the 1890s and 1900s, so clearly not.

 

This seems to have been another practice that was not maintained on wagons in traffic. 

 

I suspect the white brake handles on the wagons done up for the official photographer was all part of the 'bling' - along with picking out in white the cast lettering on axle box covers, horse hooks, and anything else the painter could think of...

 

Later, it became a practical feature to aid visibility - definitely after 1908 for the GWR as I checked photos around that date to see if I should be doing white handles or not. I don't have a definitive date, though, and I don't know if it was adopted by all railway companies at the same time.

 

Nick.

[Caley Jim]

On 23/05/2022 at 10:23, billbedford said:

I'm tempted to say that the ballast wagon is painted either green or blue for just the way orthochromatic films worked. 

I replied:

 

On 23/05/2022 at 21:52, Caley Jim said:

What leads you to that idea?  I have never seen any suggestion that CR wagons were other than red oxide (apart from gunpowder vans, which were bright red).  It may well have faded to a more pinkish hue, or have a patina of grey ballast dust. 

I posted the question of the colour of CR ballast wagons on the CRA forum and Mike Willams (author of the definitive book on CR wagons) has replied:

"I haven't come across any alternative suggestion to red oxide for service vehicles. There is an earlier reference than the 1903 painting specification to white tyres. I quoted in the wagon book that an article in the Locomotive Magazine in 1897 stated that the tyres of wagons were white. This is the earliest reference, as far as I know."

 

Jim

[Caley Jim]

On 21/05/2022 at 23:40, chrissy said:

Wow how old are those photos. I'm looking at creating buildings from the old Stroud and Stonehouse stations and they're from the 1940s. What year were these photos taken?

Sorry, Chrissy, forgot to respond to this.  these photos come from a set that were taken for the caledonian Railway's 1900 Register of Plant.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

I was reminded of this topic while browsing the excellent Caledonian Railway Association forum - unlike other similar line society forums I've seen, this one has achieve a critical mass of participants to keep it going and some fascinating topics are discussed.

 

Looking back through the photos posted, I'm very far from convinced that any of them show white-painted tyres - bare metal at the limit - not least the Bradwell Wood wagon being tipped. So I was intrigued on looking again at a photo of a northbound goods and empty mineral train at Wellingborough, probably the 3rd or maybe 5th of September 1898:

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Compound2632

[Huw Griffiths]

On 22/05/2022 at 01:11, Dave John said:

So I'm going to go out on a limb here.  It has been suggested that white tires made it easier for wheeltappers. Perhaps. But many years ago I remember using a 2 part crack detection system, white sprayed on first then another spray that showed up as black lines if there was a crack.  I'm sure some folk in here will know much more about it , but I do wonder if the painting of white tires was something to do with that ?

 

Interesting point about a paint-based crack detection system - if only because I sometimes use a variant of this idea when I mark white plastikard for cutting, drilling etc.

 

In my case, I'm cutting up white plastic. I scratch / score / scribe cutting lines etc into the surface - use a chisel tip marker along these lines - and, a few minutes later, I use a pencil eraser or a tissue soaked in solvent to remove any ink that hasn't settled into these lines. What I'm left with are clear, scored lines in the surface of the plastikard - these are the lines I cut (and file) down to.

 

Actually, it would also be possible to replace the marker pen (or second can of paint) with a rag soaked in something like paint, grease etc - the basic principle is the same.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Huw Griffiths

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I was reminded of this topic while browsing the excellent Caledonian Railway Association forum - unlike other similar line society forums I've seen, this one has achieve a critical mass of participants to keep it going and some fascinating topics are discussed.

 

Looking back through the photos posted, I'm very far from convinced that any of them show white-painted tyres - bare metal at the limit - not least the Bradwell Wood wagon being tipped. So I was intrigued on looking again at a photo of a northbound goods and empty mineral train at Wellingborough, probably the 3rd or maybe 5th of September 1898:

 

 

It's interesting to see this in relation to the Bradwell Wood wagon up thread, as you say. In this case, the left-hand wheel rim is a similar tonality to the front of the axle box, but the rim is in shadow, and the axle box is catching the sunlight that is skimming along the side of the wagon (check the shadow of the wagon where it falls on the next wagon to the left to get a sense of the light direction).

 

The contrast between light and shade is pretty high in the picture, so the tone of the wheel rim must be much lighter than that of the axle box or indeed the sunlit end of the wagon. For me, I'd be pretty sure that's a white rim we are looking at. The white lettering is lighter again, suggesting the rim is dirty white, and the lettering a pretty clean white.

 

By the same logic, I think we can say no white rims on the adjacent wagon...

 

Thanks for picking this thread up again - I've just finished another PO wagon (Slater's 'United') with no white rims!

 

Nick.

[wagonman]

On 06/02/2023 at 19:22, magmouse said:

 

It's interesting to see this in relation to the Bradwell Wood wagon up thread, as you say. In this case, the left-hand wheel rim is a similar tonality to the front of the axle box, but the rim is in shadow, and the axle box is catching the sunlight that is skimming along the side of the wagon (check the shadow of the wagon where it falls on the next wagon to the left to get a sense of the light direction).

 

The contrast between light and shade is pretty high in the picture, so the tone of the wheel rim must be much lighter than that of the axle box or indeed the sunlit end of the wagon. For me, I'd be pretty sure that's a white rim we are looking at. The white lettering is lighter again, suggesting the rim is dirty white, and the lettering a pretty clean white.

 

By the same logic, I think we can say no white rims on the adjacent wagon...

 

Thanks for picking this thread up again - I've just finished another PO wagon (Slater's 'United') with no white rims!

 

Nick.

 

As the rest of the Bradwell Wood wagon is also in pristine condition could it have had a recent repaint – including the wheel rims for show? Otherwise I'm firmly in the "no white rims in service" camp.

 

Richard

[wagonman]

On 24/05/2022 at 12:22, billbedford said:

3/ Late nineteenth-century photographic emulsions were orthochromatic meaning they over-exposed the red end of the spectrum and under-exposed the blue. ie reds, yellows and browns were darker than expected and blues, especially, paler. Hence photos of Caly locos tend to show up paler than locos of other companies. As an example of wagon colours here is a photo of Carr Wagon Works in Doncaster. The GN revenue wagon livery was red oxide, similar to the Caly's, and the engineers were painted oxford blue. The ballast wagon in the photo was probably ex-works, but the contrast between the lettering and the body colour is much the same as in the photo above

 

 

 

 

Belatedly found this thread. Orthochromatic emulsions were insensitive to the red end of the spectrum and so UNDER exposed anything that colour. That is why anything red was rendered as a dark tone while things like the blue sky were OVER exposed and thus rendered very pale. The earliest film emulsion was only really sensitive to blue – orthochromatic film extended the sensitivity into the green part of the spectrum but it was not until the advent of panchromatic film in the early C20 that red sensitivity was introduced.

 

I knew the three years I spent studying photography would come in handy one day!

 

 

Richard

Edited February 14, 2023 by wagonman
Additional info

[magmouse]

Thanks, Richard. It's great when one's past studies come in useful unexpectedly!

 

There has been some discussion of this in various threads, most recently I think in the comments section to one of my blog posts, starting here:

 

 

Mike @MikeOxon in particular provided some useful detail on the colour sensitivity of various photographic chemistries, and dates they were introduced.

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, wagonman said:

As the rest of the Bradwell Wood wagon is also in pristine condition could it have had a recent repaint – including the wheel rims for show? Otherwise I'm firmly in the "no white rims in service" camp.

 

Absolutely agree. No other wagon in that set of train photos shows anything like. However, in response to the reinvigoration of this topic Adrian Marks sent me a set of photos of similarly pristine white-tyred wagons in service, with commentary:

 

 

 

Two photos of Benjamin Tite's 10T wagon no. 224, which has just been repaired and painted by one of the wagon works in the GE yard at
Peterborough (possibly at Cootes') on 15th October 1911.  Thanks to Simon Turner I know that No.224 was built by S. J. Claye & Sons and
registered by the Midland in 1896. The majority of Tite's depots were
on GE turf in the London suburban district, conversely two thirds of
their wagons were registered by the MR, and initially worked out of
Pope's Road, Brixton, and Amelia Street, Walworth. By the end of the
century, they had depots on the MR at Kilburn and Holloway too. No.224
was originally lettered J. H. Tite (after the founder's son, John, who
took charge of operations around South London), and its home depot was
Brixton. Later, all the wagons bearing John's initials were repainted
into the parent company.

 

 

How likely is it to see consecutively-numbered wagons in service? In
the Lower Yard at Ipswich during September 1911, a pair of white-tyred
Thos. Williams & Sons wagons, nos. 834 & 835 (possibly Pickering
builds of 1904?) from his colliery at Morlais, near Llangennech.

 

 

If you thought wagon lettering couldn't get more enigmatic than Edward
Adlington's simple livery, the letter G, then here's an even more
cryptic one. Sans identifying markings, but with nice white tyres,
seen at March in a train of empties heading for Peterborough in
October 1911 It's bookended by a J. C. Abbott of Birmingham wagon
(no.879 built by Met RC&W Co. in 1908), and a rather grubby example of
a Bateman & Co. wagon - I know little about this latter company,
except that  they kept offices at no.39, London Coal Exchange, Lower
Thames Street.  A Midland Dia.299 sneaking in at the back there :)

Edited February 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

How likely is it to see consecutively-numbered wagons in service?

More likely if they have just come from repairs and repaint together, and have been rostered to do the same work since then. If they are of 1904 construction, then the 1911 date of the photo would be when their 7 year repair and repaint was due. All a bit circumstantial, but feasible.

 

It’s a small sample, but all the white-wheeled pictures here are in pristine or quite clean condition, so we probably see other white-wheeled wagons in other photos without knowing, because the rims - along with the wagon as a whole - it too dirty.

 

Perhaps we need to be looking out for pristine wagons in service without white rims?

 

Thanks for your continuing contribution to this topic, and Simon’s.

 

Nick.

[Chas Levin]

Just found this thread, very interesting. I must admit to an enormous fondness for white tyres, as indeed for white-wall tyres on cars; I do tend to use Rule 1 and a significant proportion of the stock I've built rolls along over white rims.

 

However, I too have wondered about the historical origins and accuracy of the practice: hopefully someone may turn up some incontrovertible contemporary written information in due course.

 

On the subject of white brake lever handles, the LNER did so for visibility rather than bling and I believe this was started quite late - I've seen reference to it being a 1930s introduction but I've also read of it not having been started until the era of WWII blackouts. I'd actually never thought of it being a bling thing too, but now I think about it, I guess it could look that way... 🤔

[Compound2632]

I've just been reminded of this topic, and that I'd found something relevant in a printed specification (invitation to tender) document for 8-ton open wagons for the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, issued by S.W. Johnson in his capacity as the Joint's Locomotive Superintendent and dated November 1898  [Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-1974-58/2]:

 

PAINTING.

All knots to be well protected with patent Knotting before being primed. The outside of the Body, Under Frame, Iron Work. &c., to receive three coats Lead Colour, each coat to be allowed to dry before the next one is laid on. The last coat to be mixed chiefly with boiled oil, so as to come out with a good gloss. The whole of the Ironwork, Springs, &c., to be picked out with one coat of black. Outside Rim of Tyres to be painted White. Initials and Numbers of Wagons to Pattern or Instruction.

 

(My emphasis.)

 

This chimes with official photographs of S&DJR wagons around this time:

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26349985.

 

On the other hand, a specification for the same type of wagon dated October 1882 [MRSC item 13683], which is otherwise very similar, makes no mention of white tyres:

 

PAINTING.

All knots to be well protected with Patent Knotting before being primed. The outside of the Body, Under Frame, Iron Work, &c. to receive three coats of Lead Colour, each coat to be allowed to dry before the next one is laid on. The last coat to be mixed chiefly with boiled oil, so as to come out with a good gloss.

The whole of the Iron Work, Springs, &c., to be picked out with one coat of Black, Initials, Numbers of Wagons, and Joint Ownership Plate to pattern or instruction.

 

The painting white of tyres was certainly not Midland practice and the road vans built at Derby in 1896 were turned out with plain black wheels - and Midland style painting generally, omitting the usual S&DJR black ironwork.

 

 

 

 

[kitpw]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The last coat to be mixed chiefly with boiled oil, so as to come out with a good gloss

That's interesting...I suppose the gloss reduces over time but, on a model, gloss never quite looks right to my eye.  I guess the same spec emerged from all companies and manufacturers?

[magmouse]

31 minutes ago, kitpw said:

That's interesting...I suppose the gloss reduces over time but, on a model, gloss never quite looks right to my eye.  I guess the same spec emerged from all companies and manufacturers?

 

'Scale' gloss is tricky, I think, especially in the smaller scales. The specular highlights that are a main visual cue that enables the eye/brain to recognise a gloss surface are less visible at a distance. Also, because details on our models are not as 'sharp' as the prototype (the radii of corners and edges are greater than scale) the specular highlights are bigger than scale. I think that is a key reason that matt finished models look more realistic than ones with glossier finishes - the highlights on details and edges are too large and visually prominent, and the brain uses this information to judge scale and distance.

 

I assume the specification of a gloss finish for wagons is a practical matter, not one of aesthetics. I would guess a gloss finish helps rainwater run off, taking atmospheric pollutants with it, so increasing the lifetime of the paintwork as a protective coating for the wood- and metal-work.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

This photograph is relevant to both the discussions here:

 

 

Copy Pit, undated, but from the big L&Y van after 190x (need to check Coates' Lancashire & Yorkshire Wagons) [Disused Stations]. 

 

It appears that there are three freshly-painted Towneley Colliery wagons here, with a high gloss finish that makes them look very dark. The L&Y van started life a mid grey and has perhaps darkened with age. The simplest assumption has to be that Towneley Colliery No. 38 is painted the same colour as its neighbours but has lost its glossy shine, so looks less dark. (The easiest assumption is that the livery is black with white letters shaded red - note the positioning of the lettering on each plank and, I think, a hint of the red shading - but it could be red with black shading, the black paint reflecting light differently to the red.)

 

All the Towneley wagons, including No. 38, have white-painted tyres. 

 

The wagons either side of No. 38 have self-contained buffers, which leads me to suspect that they are newly back from being converted from dumb buffers; the colliery has bought some new 1907 RCH specification 10 or 12-tonners at the same time. Has No. 38 got self-contained buffers too?

 

My main point here is that an understanding of the initial gloss finish of wagon paintwork is important for interpreting wagon livery in photographs, rather than for modelling per se. This has a bearing on the notorious Great Western wagon red/grey debate, as in this pair of photos at Cinderford, early 1890s, originally posted by @MikeOxon

 

 

 

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

I guess the same spec emerged from all companies and manufacturers?

 

This is the only one known to me. One has to make the assumption that as a random sample of one, it is typical.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Compound2632
orthography

[33C]

On 06/02/2023 at 16:31, Compound2632 said:

I was reminded of this topic while browsing the excellent Caledonian Railway Association forum - unlike other similar line society forums I've seen, this one has achieve a critical mass of participants to keep it going and some fascinating topics are discussed.

 

Looking back through the photos posted, I'm very far from convinced that any of them show white-painted tyres - bare metal at the limit - not least the Bradwell Wood wagon being tipped. So I was intrigued on looking again at a photo of a northbound goods and empty mineral train at Wellingborough, probably the 3rd or maybe 5th of September 1898:

 

The Bradwell Wood wagon is fitted with "Greedy boards". When weighing, I assume these were for less dense loads, otherwise the weight would exceed the designated load limit? Also, the slots cut in the sides of 16 ton minerals were, I again assume, to prevent overloading? (Wet Ash?) The Hornby 21 ton, black, "N.C.B.", wagon had them painted/tampo printed in white?