Did "Imperiale" coaches have disc or spoked wheels, please? And livery?

[BillB]

The Jouef "Imperiale" 4-wheeler coach models have disc wheels, and photos of a preserved double decker also show disc wheels, but I am wondering if that is about modern safety standards, and whether back in the 1850s - 1910s they might also have had spoked wheels. I'd be grateful for any info.

 

Also, the Jouef models are all lettered for the ETAT, but they use both Green and Maroon for the 2nd class bodies. Does anyone know what the correct class liveries were? And were the colours era-specific??

 

Grateful for any advice,

Thanks very much,

Bill.

[Andy Hayter]

https://www.railsdautrefois.fr/les-hors-series/

 

No 2 covers Voitures a Imperiale.

 

From the drawing and the pictures shown you can clearly see spoked wheels but this style of coach was made and used by several companies over  long period of time.  I would not therefore definitively rule out solid wheels.  

 

I am afraid I know little beyond the superficial about the Etat so cannot comment on the liveries except to say I don't recollect seeing a Jouef coach in maroon.  

 

Incidentally I can recommend the rails d'autrefois publications and even for those who find French challenging, these are full f drawings and pictures.  

[BillB]

Thanks very much. If you want to see the Jouef maroon 4-wheeler, google "Jouef 4501". They are nice little coaches, and I have found a supplier of 11.5 mm dia wheels on 24.5 mm pinpoint axles intended as scale replacements for Lima wheels, and have ordered some samples to see if they fit. It is "petersspares.com". I will provide an update when they arrive and I have tried them.

[BillB]

I can confirm that the "Peters Spares PS34 plain disc Lima Replacement 11.5mm Wagon & Coach Wheels" are an exact fit to replace the original wheels in the old Jouef Imperiale coaches. I replaced one axle in the coach shown above and the coach was horizontal on the track, i.e. the same height at both ends with a mix of axles, and when I had replaced both axles the buffer and coupler height matched an un-converted coach of the same type, and the coach ran like silk on PECO code 70 track.

 

Whilst I used the plain disc wheels there are also PS115 3-hole disc wheels and PS116 8-spoke wheels of the same diameter and axle length. I didn't order the spoked wheels as they look a bit "waggony", but I will try them for appearance under my green birdcage brake / luggage vans (Jouef 5648).

 

I found a drawing of a double-decker coach which shows the same style of disc wheels as the photo of the preserved example, with the distinctive four small semi-circular cut-outs near the rim (see pics below), and as no-one makes anything like that I think I will use plain discs for my double-deckers. Not least, the two decks must have made them heavier than the single deck coaches or the vans, making discs more necessary for strength and safety reasons.

 

Next tasks, order the Rails d'Autrefois books "Hors-série n° 2 : Les voitures à impériale" and I also saw "Hors-série n° 6 - Les locomotives 030 Bourbonnais du PLM"; and I need to find some smoother-operating couplers than the Jouef originals, which rarely couple without help from the "big hand from the sky". I hope that by upgrading my coaches the more effort I put in the more likely it is that REE will issue some scale coaches to match their forthcoming Bourbonnais!!!!!

 

Not much point in upgrading my Rivarossi Bourbonnais now REE are stepping in! (though it is cosmetically excellent and a reliable runner).

 

Thanks for your help,

Bill.

[Andy Hayter]

On 24/05/2022 at 11:52, BillB said:

Thanks very much. If you want to see the Jouef maroon 4-wheeler, google "Jouef 4501". They are nice little coaches, and I have found a supplier of 11.5 mm dia wheels on 24.5 mm pinpoint axles intended as scale replacements for Lima wheels, and have ordered some samples to see if they fit. It is "petersspares.com". I will provide an update when they arrive and I have tried them.

 

 

Having just followed a link from @northroader in his Beyond Dover thread, I wonder whether this livery is meant to represent teak as used in some suburban stock

 

http://roland.arzul.pagesperso-orange.fr/materiel/voitures/voitures_ouest_banlieue_teck.htm

 

Certainly the B&W pictures look darker than what we perhaps see as a more golden shade. 

[SimonHMT]

On 25/05/2022 at 13:29, BillB said:

I can confirm that the "Peters Spares PS34 plain disc Lima Replacement 11.5mm Wagon & Coach Wheels" are an exact fit to replace the original wheels in the old Jouef Imperiale coaches. I replaced one axle in the coach shown above and the coach was horizontal on the track, i.e. the same height at both ends with a mix of axles, and when I had replaced both axles the buffer and coupler height matched an un-converted coach of the same type, and the coach ran like silk on PECO code 70 track.

 

Whilst I used the plain disc wheels there are also PS115 3-hole disc wheels and PS116 8-spoke wheels of the same diameter and axle length. I didn't order the spoked wheels as they look a bit "waggony", but I will try them for appearance under my green birdcage brake / luggage vans (Jouef 5648).

 

I found a drawing of a double-decker coach which shows the same style of disc wheels as the photo of the preserved example, with the distinctive four small semi-circular cut-outs near the rim (see pics below), and as no-one makes anything like that I think I will use plain discs for my double-deckers. Not least, the two decks must have made them heavier than the single deck coaches or the vans, making discs more necessary for strength and safety reasons.

 

Next tasks, order the Rails d'Autrefois books "Hors-série n° 2 : Les voitures à impériale" and I also saw "Hors-série n° 6 - Les locomotives 030 Bourbonnais du PLM"; and I need to find some smoother-operating couplers than the Jouef originals, which rarely couple without help from the "big hand from the sky". I hope that by upgrading my coaches the more effort I put in the more likely it is that REE will issue some scale coaches to match their forthcoming Bourbonnais!!!!!

 

Not much point in upgrading my Rivarossi Bourbonnais now REE are stepping in! (though it is cosmetically excellent and a reliable runner).

 

Thanks for your help,

Bill.

Many thanks for this thread, Bill...I've recently acquired a number of older Jouef items, including an "Imperiale" coach, and was wondering how to replace the wheelsets...now I know!

Kind regards, 

Simon. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by SimonHMT

[Pacific231G]

On 23/05/2022 at 16:33, BillB said:

The Jouef "Imperiale" 4-wheeler coach models have disc wheels, and photos of a preserved double decker also show disc wheels, but I am wondering if that is about modern safety standards, and whether back in the 1850s - 1910s they might also have had spoked wheels. I'd be grateful for any info.

 

Also, the Jouef models are all lettered for the ETAT, but they use both Green and Maroon for the 2nd class bodies. Does anyone know what the correct class liveries were? And were the colours era-specific??

 

Grateful for any advice,

Thanks very much,

Bill.

Looking at all the contemporary photos I can find of "Impériales" all the wheels are disks. The original drawings for the l'Ouest's 1865 series of impériales (they were first introduced in 1853) do show spoked wheels but a diagram for the 1869 series show solid wheels. This suggests that they went over to disks by the time photography was well established.

These deathtraps were surprisingly long lived and were still in service into the 1930s and , in the case of the short Enghien-Montmorency  line near Paris, into the 1940s . This was despite the fact that the far safer "Vidard" double deckers, with an enclosed upper deck (and "swan neck" iron longerons (solebar) to lower the lower deck to allow for that first appeared in about 1865. These were known by the Parisians as "Bidels" as the rather claustrophobic upper deck was thought to resemble the cages used by the famous Bidel Menageries. Again, the early diagrams of these show spoked wheels but photographs invariably show disks. Many photos show trains with both types of "impériale" 

Many of these coaches had second class on the lower deck and third in the upper open seating but some third class accomodation was offered on lower decks or single deck coaches. I think for the l'Ouest green was the colour for second class and brown for third but I don't know about first. On the PLM its was maroon for first and yellow for second.

[SimonHMT]

I was in a local-ish model shop yesterday and spotted, high up on a shelf, two single and one double deck "Impéreales", so I will need to order some more wheelsets!

For my French project, I'm thinking about replacing the standard couplings with Sprat and Winkles or similar as I've had good results with them.

Simon. 

[BillB]

On couplers, my Jouef "Impéreales" have come with three types of coupler. What I take to be the earliest have something not unlike the old metal Hornby Dublo / PECO Simplex secured with a screw. This has the advantage of allowing a coach or wagon to be lifted out of a rake without hassle.

 

What I take to be the "middle" version have a Roco style hinged loop coupler on a stamped metal frame, again secured by a screw identical in diameter and location to that in the early type, so those two coupler types are interchangeable. These Roco style are for me the ones that tend to bounce off each other rather than couple.

 

The real stamped metal Peco Simplex is a slightly different shape to the Jouef version, but the hole at the back is in the right place and the right diameter to also fit with the Jouef screw, making it a direct replacement on "early" and "middle" chassis, and my first thought was to fit these to all of the stock, as I have a load of them.

 

But then I got some of what I take to be the "latest" version, which have NEM coupler pockets fitted with Roco style couplers. These coupler assemblies clip onto a plastic peg which protrudes from a modified floor moulding, i.e. no socket for a screw. This design allows easy fitting of NEM Kadee couplers, which also make it easy to pick up a coach from the middle of a rake. These Jouef NEM pockets have no centering springing, so don't always align.

 

The only coupler type that will simply fit to early and late chassis types is the Roco coupler. The only way to fit Kadees to the early chassis would be by using body-mounted coupler boxes, but these would at least provide centering springing and be reliable, and should be no problem on such a short chassis. The Rivarossi Bourbonnaise is designed to couple to stock with Roco coupler hoops, my Metrop "Bicyclette" tank has screw-link couplers, and the new REE model will have NEM pockets and thus take Roco or Kadee couplers. So I am undecided!

 

Best Regards,

Bill.

 

 

[Pacific231G]

14 hours ago, BillB said:

On couplers, my Jouef "Impéreales" have come with three types of coupler. What I take to be the earliest have something not unlike the old metal Hornby Dublo / PECO Simplex secured with a screw. This has the advantage of allowing a coach or wagon to be lifted out of a rake without hassle.

 

What I take to be the "middle" version have a Roco style hinged loop coupler on a stamped metal frame, again secured by a screw identical in diameter and location to that in the early type, so those two coupler types are interchangeable. These Roco style are for me the ones that tend to bounce off each other rather than couple.

 

The real stamped metal Peco Simplex is a slightly different shape to the Jouef version, but the hole at the back is in the right place and the right diameter to also fit with the Jouef screw, making it a direct replacement on "early" and "middle" chassis, and my first thought was to fit these to all of the stock, as I have a load of them.

 

But then I got some of what I take to be the "latest" version, which have NEM coupler pockets fitted with Roco style couplers. These coupler assemblies clip onto a plastic peg which protrudes from a modified floor moulding, i.e. no socket for a screw. This design allows easy fitting of NEM Kadee couplers, which also make it easy to pick up a coach from the middle of a rake. These Jouef NEM pockets have no centering springing, so don't always align.

 

The only coupler type that will simply fit to early and late chassis types is the Roco coupler. The only way to fit Kadees to the early chassis would be by using body-mounted coupler boxes, but these would at least provide centering springing and be reliable, and should be no problem on such a short chassis. The Rivarossi Bourbonnaise is designed to couple to stock with Roco coupler hoops, my Metrop "Bicyclette" tank has screw-link couplers, and the new REE model will have NEM pockets and thus take Roco or Kadee couplers. So I am undecided!

 

Best Regards,

Bill.

 

 

Hi Bill

I've come across earlier Jouef and Playcraft "models" fitted with Simplex, tension lock and hinged loop couplers. I think the type they fitted was more about the market than when they were produced with an attempt- under Jouef's Playcraft brand- to enter the UK market.

 

What you describe as the Roco style hinged loop is the NEM standard coupler for H0 and still the default that most European rolling stock comes with - fortunately nowadays with an NEM coupler box so they can easily be replaced. I loathe them and reckon they were designed (originally by Märklin I think) to make tension locks look good! 

 

If you're not specifically modelling the Ouest/Etat it's worth noting that, though the Jouef Impériale is based on the Etat coach preserved at Mulhouse, near identical coaches were used on Paris suburban services by the Est, Nord and Ceinture. 

 

In its earliest years the  Est's Ligne de Vincennes out of Bastille, did use locos with tenders but they soon went for tank locos on these suburban services so I'm not sure about a Bourbonnaise (I also don't think that the PLM used impériales on its suburban services). The Ouest Bicyclette is entirely suitable for the Ouest/Etat  as is the Jouef "Boer"  030T (0-6-0T) if you can find one. For the Est, the Hornby-Acho 030TB (0-6-0T) was specifically designed for the Vincennes line in the early 1920s and was used with the open impériales alongside the slightly later (and much safer) Vidard enclosed imperiale type for some years. 

 

For comparison, here is a photo of my example of the Jouef Ouest/Etat  2nd/3rd impériale and the only actual drawing I've been able to find-  though note that the drawing is for an all third Cf type with a brakeman's perch or guérite (C for third class f for screw brake) Note that the  drawing was published in 1869 and shows solid unspoked wheels. 

 

 

 

To be pedantic, the Jouef single-deck four wheel coach, though attractive,  is really the chassis and body of the impériale (which IS dimensionally accurate) with the upper deck replaced with a new roof. For the actual impériale  the lower deck was lower than for a normal coach so for a model of a single deck coach the compartments are really too low. You can see the difference in compartment height in this postcard of St. Germain from about 1900. I think the closest  impériale is the type preserved at Mulhouse while the next two  have a brakeman's position at the near ends as in the drawing though, with four lower deck compartments, these are 2nd/3rds

 

If you want a real challenge, these are drawings from about 1858 of the enclosed Systéme Vidard double-deckers adopted by the Est and Ceinture and later by the Nord and Ouest. 

 

Note the ingenious system of "swan neck" longerons (solebars) that the engineer Vidard came up with to lower the lower deck sufficiently to enable the upper deck to be an enclosed saloon- albeit a rather cramped one.

While researching an article on impériales  I looked through a number of contemporary newspaper accounts of accidents to passengers using the open impériales which typically involved serious injuries from falls from the roof in stations or fatalities from standing up while the train was in motion and being hit by bridges, tunnels or other structures.   

Commuting by train in nineteenth and early twentieth century Paris looks to have been as dangerous as doing so in Mumbai nowadays.

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Pacific231G