Scottish government to replace 156s, 318s and 320s, electrify Fife lines.

[nightstar.train]

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/green-light-for-55m-scottish-government-investment-in-decarbonisation/

 

Green light for the first phase of what should become a rolling program of electrification across Scotland. Hopefully to extend eventually to Dundee and Aberdeen. This initial phase will electrify from Haymarket to Dalmeny (south end of the Forth Bridge). Slightly disappointed that they’re talking of partial electrification of the Fife lines and the Borders route. But I guess if BEMUs are now good enough it could allow much cheaper electrification of lines if you don’t need to raise bridges. 

 

BEMUs to replace the class 156s for the Fife circle, East Kilbride and Borders route. Could these be class 755 derivatives, with a battery pack instead of a diesel pack? Or maybe something else. Also new EMUs to replace the 318s and 320s. An obvious choice here would be more 380s from Siemens or 385s from Hitachi, as they’re what already run around Strathclyde. 

[black and decker boy]

I’d imagine this will be a common fleet type, some with batteries, maybe some without. Must be plenty of lines around Glasgow that can cope with BEMUs 

[Legend]

I've kind of lost track of this , but aren't they electrifying  East Kilbride and Barrhead routes anyway , so the 156s currently on these routes would move over to emu ?   A further build of 380s or 385s  would seem in order , also to replace the 318s/320s . I really feel old now because I remember all these units being introduced !

 

I think modern technology has now moved on , so partial electrification probably makes sense where the infrastructure would make it very expensive to install catenary , not to mention the visual intrusion it could have on something like the Forth Bridge .   I've see trams run through the central square of Nice on batteries, having changed over seemlessly from overhead electric , so the tech must exist . Do Stadler already have a battery emu? In which case a derivative of the 755 might be appropriate . Probably need to adjust platform ends , or lengthen them in some stations if running in multiple though .

 

Good to see progress .

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Hi

 

This is what I expected to happen, I.e a large order to replace most of the 1980s units.  Speculation can begin now:

 

What happens to the services that extend beyond Barrhead to Kilmarnock, Carlisle and south of Ayr.  

What happens on the West Highland Lines.

What happens to the 158s which are only a handful of years younger than the 156s.

 

Adrian of Muscat / Sometimes Edinburgh and rarely Aberdeen.

[Legend]

13 minutes ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

Hi

 

This is what I expected to happen, I.e a large order to replace most of the 1980s units.  Speculation can begin now:

 

What happens to the services that extend beyond Barrhead to Kilmarnock, Carlisle and south of Ayr.  

What happens on the West Highland Lines.

What happens to the 158s which are only a handful of years younger than the 156s.

 

Adrian of Muscat / Sometimes Edinburgh and rarely Aberdeen.

 

Aren't they looking at Hydrogen for stuff thats well beyond the wires ?   I think as well there's an argument for electrification to Kilmarnock and maybe even Girvan , although I fear for the line south to Stranraer.   There's an old 314 , I think currently at Bo'ness, thats being used as a Hydrogen test bed 

[Mike_Walker]

12 minutes ago, 313201 said:

I was just thinking, given that old ex London Underground D stock units have been given a new lease of life by the addition of generator sets to power the motors, would it not be possible to convert the 156s to fully electric by fitting battery packs where the engines are currently located.

 

Surely an idea like this would drastically reduce diesel emissions to zero

Given that both the D stock rebuilding and the 769 debacle have failed to deliver as expected, I think the penny has finally dropped at the DfT that such projects do not present value for money and new-builds will be more reliable and longer lived.

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, 313201 said:

I was just thinking, given that old ex London Underground D stock units have been given a new lease of life by the addition of generator sets to power the motors, would it not be possible to convert the 156s to fully electric by fitting battery packs where the engines are currently located.

 

In addition to what Mike Walker posted, at some point one has to accept that trains don't last forever.  Spending money to switch something like the 156's to a different form of power when they would be around 35 years old when the time comes doesn't make sense given all the other issues that will start to happen (if they haven't already).

[nightstar.train]

4 hours ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said:

Hi

 

This is what I expected to happen, I.e a large order to replace most of the 1980s units.  Speculation can begin now:

 

What happens to the services that extend beyond Barrhead to Kilmarnock, Carlisle and south of Ayr.  

What happens on the West Highland Lines.

What happens to the 158s which are only a handful of years younger than the 156s.

 

Adrian of Muscat / Sometimes Edinburgh and rarely Aberdeen.

 

Theyre certainly looking for something that can go beyond the wires for the Far North, Kyle line, West Highland and Stranraer. Batteries just don’t have the power required for such long routes, and electrifying them will never be cost effective. Hydrogen is certainly a possibility. I was reading in Modern Railways this month that work is also going on on ammonia and methane as possible fuels. Both can be produced using clean energy from wind or solar. 

[KingEdwardII]

"removal of all diesel on passenger services by 2035" (quote from the press release)

 

Now, I am a HUGE supporter of electrification, but I find it very hard to believe that this is an achievable goal. I doubt that they are going to run wires on places like the West Highland line and if they think that either batteries or Hydrogen are feasible and economical, then they are living in fairy land.

 

Yours, Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

4 minutes ago, nightstar.train said:

ammonia and methane as possible fuels

Yes, in many ways these make a lot more sense technically than Hydrogen. However, producing Methane by "green" means, using electricity, is still an unproven technology with equally unproven costs.

 

Yours, Mike.

[frobisher]

2 hours ago, 313201 said:

I was just thinking, given that old ex London Underground D stock units have been given a new lease of life by the addition of generator sets to power the motors, would it not be possible to convert the 156s to fully electric by fitting battery packs where the engines are currently located.

 

Not really, because you'd have to replace the hydraulic drive system as well...

[corneliuslundie]

I assume that they will also wantany rebuilt/replacement stock to be fitted with ERTMS, or at least able to have it added easily retrospectively. That would make recycled 35 year old units unlikely. I don't know about the modern units currently in use in Scotland, but would a 196 derivative be more likely for new stock? The TfW 197s are having ERTMS - or some of them. But as Big Jim has shown on here the view out for the driver is awful. Is that suitable for much wilder terrain than Birmingham?

Jonathan

[Kris]

17 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

then they are living in fairy land.

 

The same as all other politicians then.

[frobisher]

18 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I doubt that they are going to run wires on places like the West Highland line and if they think that either batteries or Hydrogen are feasible and economical, then they are living in fairy land.

 

Hydrogen is perfectly feasible and economical in areas where there is an excess of electrical production relative to demand/ability to export to the grid which pretty much describes the Highlands and Islands and where there is plenty of ongoing research on the matter.

[johnofwessex]

I would assume that the annual carbon emissions from lines like the Far North, Central Wales etc are pretty minimal and that there would be more 'cost effective' ways of reducing Carbon Emissions than 'repowering' these routes - my simplest suggestion as ever would be reducing road - and rail speeds

[woodenhead]

21 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

In addition to what Mike Walker posted, at some point one has to accept that trains don't last forever.  Spending money to switch something like the 156's to a different form of power when they would be around 35 years old when the time comes doesn't make sense given all the other issues that will start to happen (if they haven't already).

It would be like taking an A4 in 1960, sticking a diesel generator in the tender and using it to generate electricity to turn water into steam.

 

Feasible, but why would you.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 03/06/2022 at 10:17, Legend said:

I've kind of lost track of this , but aren't they electrifying  East Kilbride and Barrhead routes anyway , so the 156s currently on these routes would move over to emu ?   A further build of 380s or 385s  would seem in order , also to replace the 318s/320s . I really feel old now because I remember all these units being introduced !

 

I think modern technology has now moved on , so partial electrification probably makes sense where the infrastructure would make it very expensive to install catenary , not to mention the visual intrusion it could have on something like the Forth Bridge .   I've see trams run through the central square of Nice on batteries, having changed over seemlessly from overhead electric , so the tech must exist . Do Stadler already have a battery emu? In which case a derivative of the 755 might be appropriate . Probably need to adjust platform ends , or lengthen them in some stations if running in multiple though .

 

Good to see progress .

 

Visual intrusion? I am sure I am in a minority with my opinion on this, but I think a railway looks better with OLE than without it.

 

I was brought up within line of sight of a railway with OLE, so to me it looks normal & anywhere without seems incomplete.

[black and decker boy]

Short term, I’m sure HVO will make an appearance on passenger lines before long with it’s claimed 90% reduction in CO2 compared to gas oil

 

i have my doubts about HVO as a sustainable mass market fuel but that’s for another time

[Luke Piewalker]

This is where my plan of a crack roving team of electrifiers, in a permanent state of electrifying, comes in.

Electrifying the GSWR all the way makes a lot of sense, introducing an avoiding/relief route for the WCML.

Then do from Carlisle to Leeds. And Carlisle to Newcastle. Manchester to Leeds.

 

And just keep going...

[icn]

10 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that they will also wantany rebuilt/replacement stock to be fitted with ERTMS, or at least able to have it added easily retrospectively. That would make recycled 35 year old units unlikely. I don't know about the modern units currently in use in Scotland, but would a 196 derivative be more likely for new stock? The TfW 197s are having ERTMS - or some of them. But as Big Jim has shown on here the view out for the driver is awful. Is that suitable for much wilder terrain than Birmingham?

Jonathan

Pretty much any European manufacturer offers ETCS, in fact in some countries all new stock must either have ETCS only (foreign systems allowed for cross-border travel) or at least support it. So there's no need to limit yourself to CAF. The Stadler UK Flirts are merely ETCS ready but they will be based on the same software as the contintental units that are delivered with ETCS - and as of recently Stadler even produces their own ETCS system (previously they'd buy it in). Siemens have long been producing ETCS hardware and they are delivering plenty of trains with it. Bombardier is fortunately gone - they had a disastrous history with some trains failing to reach certification - but I'm not sure how much of an influence the Alstom takeover will have had on Aventra production in any case, so it might be worth staying away.

 

 

[DY444]

On 04/06/2022 at 10:12, frobisher said:

 

Hydrogen is perfectly feasible and economical in areas where there is an excess of electrical production relative to demand/ability to export to the grid which pretty much describes the Highlands and Islands and where there is plenty of ongoing research on the matter.

 

Am I the only one who is concerned about the safety of hydrogen in a derailment or collision? 

[iands]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

Am I the only one who is concerned about the safety of hydrogen in a derailment or collision? 

No. Back in around 2008 during the 'detailed design' phase of the East London Line for a couple of months there were a spate of enquiries being made to the project on why we weren't considering 'hydrogen' based traction instead of continuing with the 'antiquated' 3rd rail electrification system. A few non-engineering people seemed quite keen on the idea, until we (the engineering team) raised a couple of scenarios involving train derailment/fire in the Thames Tunnel. All things considered, the 3rd rail was deemed the safer option.

Not saying alternative traction power shouldn't be investigated/developed, but it needs to be done properly and take every scenario into account, something that some people don't seem to be bothered with and just want to press ahead with it because 'it's green and therefore must be good'. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by iands
smelling pistake

[John M Upton]

Of course there is the standard caveat with all promises made by politicians, they can promise what they like, by the time said promises reach their announced deadline, those who announced will be long gone so the actual delivery is not their problem. 

[DY444]

Do I detect in this announcement the first signs that the "engineering is too difficult" contagion which is plaguing England and Wales is now spreading to Scotland?  This whole thing smacks of wanting to avoid at any costs coming up with a plan to tackle the gargantuan elephant in the room which spans the Firth of Forth.  I speak as someone who has a feeling that BEMUs are going to prove to be a very expensive mistake (assuming any actually get delivered).  

Edited June 5, 2022 by DY444

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Hi

 

My point was more about how will the 156s be replaced.  On the Maryhill and Barrhead / EK lines the new BMU / BEMU will replace the 156s directly.  In the East, the battery units will replace 170s and 158s, so 170s and 158s will have to move west if the press release is correct and the 156s are to be replaced.

 

I assume that services onwards to Kilmarnock and then Ayr etc will remain diesel as the electric parts of the journey are too short to allow full charging but we shall see how the technology develops.

 

156s are the only units equipped to work the West Highland Line, so an upgrade has to be done.  Is fitting the kit actually hard.  I lost track years ago of which units are currently route cleared for the WHL.

 

Adrian