icn Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, DY444 said: Am I the only one who is concerned about the safety of hydrogen in a derailment or collision? Germany already has Hydrogen trains and they are no more concerned about it than diesel or other liquid-fuel trains. Bear in mind that a hydrogen train is likely much less explosive than say a tank wagon full of diesel (never mind a train of such wagons). In fact some experts seem to say hydrogen vehicles are safer than petrol/diesel... Nay, I think the safety aspect is a distraction. Hydrogen supply/production and experience with the technology seem like the real concerns. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 25 minutes ago, DY444 said: Do I detect in this announcement the first signs that the "engineering is too difficult" contagion which is plaguing England and Wales is now spreading to Scotland? This whole thing smacks of wanting to avoid at any costs coming up with a plan to tackle the gargantuan elephant in the room which spans the Firth of Forth. I speak as someone who has a feeling that BEMUs are going to prove to be a very expensive mistake (assuming any actually get delivered). More like there’s not very much cash going spare, about 100 trains are life expired and a lot of this can be delivered on the never never using money from Edinburgh banks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
icn Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, 6892 Oakhill Grange said: 156s are the only units equipped to work the West Highland Line, so an upgrade has to be done. Is fitting the kit actually hard. I lost track years ago of which units are currently route cleared for the WHL. I believe there's portable hardware, and I'm not sure RETB even has to integrate with the other safety systems on board - my understanding is that there's TPWS at the entry to all sections anyhow. But it also seems to be a prime candidate for ETCS regardless. Edited June 5, 2022 by icn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, icn said: Germany already has Hydrogen trains and they are no more concerned about it than diesel or other liquid-fuel trains. Bear in mind that a hydrogen train is likely much less explosive than say a tank wagon full of diesel (never mind a train of such wagons). In fact some experts seem to say hydrogen vehicles are safer than petrol/diesel... Nay, I think the safety aspect is a distraction. Hydrogen supply/production and experience with the technology seem like the real concerns. I know Germany has hydrogen trains and isn't bothered about it. Germany also doesn't have an especially stellar rail safety record either. Imo a hydrogen fire on a train is inevitable; its just a matter of when. Anyway let's start by not picking and mixing situations. I'm talking about hydrogen powered passenger trains as nobody, so far as I am aware, believes hydrogen has any relevance to the propulsion of freight trains. That means tank wagons and petrol are irrelevant. I did do chemistry at school but that was half a century ago and I've forgotten almost all of it but I believe if faced with a choice of leaking high pressure hydrogen or leaking diesel fuel, most people would opt for the latter. Are these "experts" talking about road vehicles per chance? If so they probably haven't considered the huge amount of energy in many rail mishaps. Would you really bet the farm on hydrogen vessels and their associated pipework surviving wholly intact from some of the types of incidents we've seen in recent years? I don't think I would and if it doesn't then you're looking at an almost guaranteed inferno. Edited June 5, 2022 by DY444 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted June 5, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, DY444 said: (assuming any actually get delivered) Depends if Fergusons are going to bid* on the contract. 😬 * When I say 'Bid' what I meant was 'gifted with an open cheque' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Look at The Hindenburg. The hydrogen in the gas bags burnt and went up, the diesel fuel for the engines formed a pool of burning fuel on the ground and killed people 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 5 hours ago, DY444 said: Am I the only one who is concerned about the safety of hydrogen in a derailment or collision? It won't explode like you're thinking it will... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, frobisher said: It won't explode like you're thinking it will... I was thinking more of it burning than exploding. Either way it's potentially a moot point because rumour has it that there isn't much industry interest in it here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 12 minutes ago, johnofwessex said: The hydrogen in the gas bags burnt and went up, the diesel fuel for the engines formed a pool of burning fuel on the ground and killed people Also it should be noted it was the outside skin of the blimp that caught fire which then leaked, the whole thing didn't explode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncan Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 If anyone is worried about a hydrogen fire, I suggest they look at the u-tube clips of battery fires, particularly the (latest?) one of a bus. I would not like to be in or near such a vehicle if it went up. Very hot chemical fire with a flame like a blow torch which would set light to anything near. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexagon789 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 The plan is for discontinuous electrification, BEMUs and potentially Hydrogen trains or similar to remove all diesel trains in Scotland by 2035. The idea with discontinuous electrification is to string up wires either side of a feeder station allowing rapid charging of a BEMU as transitions the section, this permits a quicker transition to electric trains by reducing the amount of wiring to be done initially with the unwired sections then being filled in gradually afterwards to allow transition to an EMU service. The East Kilbride and Barrhead electrification is underway; contracts for electrification to Maryhill/Anniesland, the Borders Line, Fife, Kilmarnock and Perth were all contracted out during last year and planning permission for adjustments to structures, to permit erection of OLE, on the Perth-Dundee and Dundee-Aberdeen routes was granted last month. Things behind the scenes are, I think, more advanced than people may realise. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted June 5, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 5, 2022 Have read that the hydrogen fuel in European MUs is carried in tanks on the rood and as such would vent harmlessly to the air if the tanks are punctured in an accident. However due to our more restricted loading gauge that would not be possible in the UK and the fuel would be carried in tanks within the body of the unit, which could be less safe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted June 5, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, icn said: Germany already has Hydrogen trains and they are no more concerned about it than diesel or other liquid-fuel trains. Bear in mind that a hydrogen train is likely much less explosive than say a tank wagon full of diesel (never mind a train of such wagons). In fact some experts seem to say hydrogen vehicles are safer than petrol/diesel... Nay, I think the safety aspect is a distraction. Hydrogen supply/production and experience with the technology seem like the real concerns. They said that 85 years ago, then the Hindenburg burned in New Jersey. Germany seems to have an on going fascination with Hydrogen… V2 rocket comes to mind as well. it explodes on buses very well too .. In the Netherlands.. https://energynews.biz/hydrogen-bus-catches-fire-in-the-netherlands/ (This one was just delivered) in Sweden.. https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/03/13/bus-explosion-on-camera-roth-newsource-orig.cnn In Italy.. Hydrogen has always been a volatile explosive fuel. Edited June 5, 2022 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 I think that I am less concerned about Hydrogen being a fire risk and more concerned with the problem of its low energy density. Put simply, you have to have a very large volume of Hydrogen tanks to contain enough Hydrogen to give a train (or bus) a decent range. Equally, there is the concern of having suitable Hydrogen refuelling locations, especially as the Hydrogen needs to be stored at very high pressures to keep the volume acceptably low. It seems that current battery technology is much more of a fire risk than Hydrogen. Lithium battery fires are relatively common and seem to be almost impossible to extinguish, leading to catastrophic damage to whatever they are contained in (cars, buses, houses...). Yours, Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted June 6, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2022 An electric double decker went up in Potters Bar Garage the other day, taking half a dozen others with it, all of the type were immediately pulled off the road by TfL. Electric/Battery is the future but there are still a LOT of hurdles to overcome. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
icn Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, DY444 said: I know Germany has hydrogen trains and isn't bothered about it. Germany also doesn't have an especially stellar rail safety record either. Imo a hydrogen fire on a train is inevitable; its just a matter of when. Anyway let's start by not picking and mixing situations. I'm talking about hydrogen powered passenger trains as nobody, so far as I am aware, believes hydrogen has any relevance to the propulsion of freight trains. That means tank wagons and petrol are irrelevant. I did do chemistry at school but that was half a century ago and I've forgotten almost all of it but I believe if faced with a choice of leaking high pressure hydrogen or leaking diesel fuel, most people would opt for the latter. Are these "experts" talking about road vehicles per chance? If so they probably haven't considered the huge amount of energy in many rail mishaps. Would you really bet the farm on hydrogen vessels and their associated pipework surviving wholly intact from some of the types of incidents we've seen in recent years? I don't think I would and if it doesn't then you're looking at an almost guaranteed inferno. Does Germany's safety record have anything to do with the trains, or is it rather the signalling systems? If the latter, then that's a strawman argument. Bear in mind that UK trains go on fire all the time. Fortunately the people who are working on Hydrogen trains these days have more than just a very outdated schoolperson knowledge of Engineering, Chemistry and Physics - so I think it's fair to place a bit more trust in their claims. Yes, they are talking about trains. Yes, there are British experts who say the same thing. Yes the RSSB is actively working on the topic. 15 hours ago, adb968008 said: They said that 85 years ago, then the Hindenburg burned in New Jersey. Germany seems to have an on going fascination with Hydrogen… V2 rocket comes to mind as well. it explodes on buses very well too .. In the Netherlands.. https://energynews.biz/hydrogen-bus-catches-fire-in-the-netherlands/ (This one was just delivered) in Sweden.. https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/03/13/bus-explosion-on-camera-roth-newsource-orig.cnn In Italy.. Hydrogen has always been a volatile explosive fuel. Of your 3 stories, only one involves hydrogen. It's not hard to find equivalent stories with diesel: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-60720079 Edited June 6, 2022 by icn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, icn said: Does Germany's safety record have anything to do with the trains, or is it rather the signalling systems? If the latter, then that's a strawman argument. Bear in mind that UK trains go on fire all the time. Yes it's definitely a straw man argument because signalling systems/signallers have never ever caused collisions between trains or caused derailments have they? What difference does it make what the cause is? If two trains collide at a given speed the effect is the same no matter what was responsible for that collision. Edited June 6, 2022 by DY444 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted June 6, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2022 The risks from hydrogen seem to be less than with conventional liquid fuels, and we seem to be quite happy with living with those. As has been mentioned it escapes rapidly into the air rather than pooling and burning; it's probably safer than a tank of petrol. At any rate I'd happily take hydrogen powered trains if the alternative was festooning the place with OHLE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted June 6, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 6, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, icn said: Of your 3 stories, only one involves hydrogen. It's not hard to find equivalent stories with diesel: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-60720079 Its not me you need to convince, its 69 million people reading newspapers who will happilly attach hysteria to a cause.. first to sell the story, second to sell a story about the panic caused, and third to sell a story about the costs of dealing with the panic caused by the story. and this one definitely has a headline grabbing cause looking for hysteria…. Add to that its political, which attracts journalists like moths to a flame, especially if taxpayer waste can be attributed. already two of us made Hindenburg comparisons.. it wont take long for one or two “events” for journalists to run to the story…. Imo its definitely got legs… fear sells… remember Londons exploding bendy buses ? Edited June 6, 2022 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 what ever they pick lets hope its better than the ferry venture.... the trains might come with windows! I will show myself the door interestingly the borders route should not be too hard to put wires on as it was considered when rebuilding the route so in theory it should fit in with minimal effort 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now