What locomotives and rolling stock should be produced first?

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I was surprised they chose a class 31. .

 

As previously mentioned, I think that some of the reasoning behind the choice of the 31 is to pull at the heartstrings of those that had Triang TT stock in the past. Me included.

I think I had up to 12-13 of them at one point.

 

So hopefully, following the same logic, a BR 7MT [*] will be the next announcement, along with a 104. 😉

 

The 104 isn't such a daft idea, as Heljan are already committed to producing one in 00

 

 

 

 

 

[*] As much as I do current day modelling, BR Standards rule..................

[rue_d_etropal]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

I've gone ahead and ordered one of the 16 tonners to get my fingers wet with something British... estimate says I should have it in the beginning of next month some time.

 

I looked through the rest of the stuff you've got listed and have to ask: would you consider scaling the Class 120 to 1:120 at some point, or drawing up a Class 121 or 122 someday?

Thanks for ordering. Plan is to resize other designs, but some designs are old and need more care to modify.

The nostalgia approach might work for those who actually remember it, but even I am  too young to remember when TT was riding the waves and I officially enter retirement phase of my life in a few weeks time. 

[Jeff Smith]

I'm following all the TT:120 threads with interest although unlikely to dabble as I recently moved from 4mm to 7mm NG.

 

Firstly I'm glad the thread didn't degenerate into a RTR versus kit/scratch built argument.

 

Secondly I wonder if any of the established TT manufacturers would be tempted to produce something aimed at the British market but also useable on some continental layouts....I'm thinking ROD, say a GWR Mogul which would have a useful chassis......

[whart57]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Firstly I'm glad the thread didn't degenerate into a RTR versus kit/scratch built argument.

 

No-one wants that. However there will be a period when anyone contemplating 1:120 scale will have to ask themselves the question "How much can I do for myself?"

 

By the end of the year PECO should be selling two varieties of turnout, a crossing and flexible track. As PECO code 55 will be pretty incompatible with Tillig's and others code 80 it will be a choice of one or the other, but PECO will do enough to meet the 80:20 rule*

 

Scenery might also require minimal effort. Downloadable card building plans from someone like Scalescenes can be resized for printing to 1:120 scale by anyone who can do the basics on a PC. Which is nearly everyone these days. Then it is just a case of basic cutting and glueing. However "How much can I do for myself?" is the question to be answered

 

"How much can I do for myself?" is going to be the tough question when it comes to locomotives and rolling stock. There will be no British outline RTR in TT:120 until at least late 2023. Nor are there any obvious "close enough" candidates in the offerings from Piko, Arnold and others in continental outline TT.

 

One solution might be the approach taken by Geoff Helliwell and Lenny Seeney with what they call "near Ready to Run". This is a combination of working chassis and 3D printed body but sold unpainted. This was a cottage industry approach for the limited market of the 3mm Society and you can read about it in the June Railway Modeller. N-RTR won't suit those who want their stuff straight out of the box and onto the layout, but many will be prepared to get out the paints and apply transfers. It's still a long way from kitbuilding and scratchbuilding. What's needed is someone entrepreneurial enough to put the bits together.

 

A bit more adventurous would be taking stuff off Shapeways or from independent sellers and treating them as basic kits. @rue-d-etropal of this parish has already stated he is resizing his offerings to TT:120. The answer to "How much can I do for myself?" will be more extensive but still short of real metal and plastic bashing.

 

I have got into the habit over the years of building what I want if the RTR business doesn't fulfil my desires. I know others are more prepared to have their desires guided by what is offered. I just remind people that what is offered is going to be pretty thin fare for a good few years and the scale will die if there aren't the pioneers prepared to hack their way through.

 

 

*) 80:20 rule, 80% results require 20% of effort.

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

Nor are there any obvious "close enough" candidates in the offerings from Piko, Arnold and others in continental outline TT

I believe Arnold produce a small German shunter, a member of which class (or a very similar one) made its way to the UK. Sure it's not much, but it's potentially something...

Quote

I just remind people that what is offered is going to be pretty thin fare for a good few years and the scale will die if there aren't the pioneers prepared to hack their way through.

From O and OO9, most modellers are perfectly happy to tailor their layouts to the limited RTR stock available.

[Ravenser]

15 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

I was surprised they chose a class 31. S class 47 might have been better, as at least some of those were used on construction trains in France, do increasing potential market. A class 20 would also have a French market. An Austerity tank would be useful, and those were also used on the continent. Two them were used on the Peugeot internal railway, with what also looked like British wagons. 

3d printing is way forward. I am adding the scale to all my new designs and also workng through my existing collection.

Just completed resized designs for standard 16 ton coal trucks, 3 different types, as well as a 9ft  and 10ft chassis. In this small size only offering finer grade plastic. Details on my website.

 

There is no market for TT in France. Any market for TT in the Netherlands is very small

 

Therefore "it ran in France" is irrelevant - it makes no difference to the potential RTR market unless it also ran in Germany, Czechoslavakia, Hungary or Poland

 

But making your range available in 1:120 will be a valuable and substantial boost to the scale

 

A 31 is better than a 47 because it's smaller. 31s did quite a bit of local trip goods work, and small residual freight on;ly operations on the ER in the 1960s and 1970s were likely to be worked by a solitary 31 . Those are popular subjects. Add a DMU and you can do an ER branch.

 

Come to that, the W&M railbuses were adaptations of vehicles widely used in Germany. Now there is a subject wirth genuine crossover potential. I'm not sure how great the differences were, but even a DB railbus in BR green might be within the limits of acceptable compromise. At that point E Anglia in the 60s becomes a real option. They got about a bit, so they would be fairly easy to justify on other Regions (At least as easy as the Airfix Park Royal units..)

 

 

[whart57]

30 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

There is no market for TT in France. Any market for TT in the Netherlands is very small

 

 

But in the Netherlands there is a scale society - TT Nederland

[britishcolumbian]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

By the end of the year PECO should be selling two varieties of turnout, a crossing and flexible track. As PECO code 55 will be pretty incompatible with Tillig's and others code 80 it will be a choice of one or the other, but PECO will do enough to meet the 80:20 rule*

 

The Peco N scale rail does fit into the joiners of Tillig's bedding track. As far as I know Peco TT track will use the same rail, so one will be able to use both Tillig and Peco track together (which will be a nice way to give the impression of heavier mainline rail and lighter branch/siding rail). And anyways in other scales too all the way up to 1:1 people have mixed rail sizes without issue, of course it does take a modicum of effort to get it right, but... it's not a problem.

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

There is no market for TT in France.

 

And yet there have been French models produced in TT since the BTTB days. SNCF modellers may be a teensy market but they do exist.

 

Quote

Any market for TT in the Netherlands is very small

 

As whart57 mentioned, there is a TT scale society in the Netherlands, and there is a manufacturer as well, PSK Modelbouw.

[britishcolumbian]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Come to that, the W&M railbuses were adaptations of vehicles widely used in Germany. Now there is a subject wirth genuine crossover potential. I'm not sure how great the differences were, but even a DB railbus in BR green might be within the limits of acceptable compromise.

 

So, BR:

 

DB VT98:

 

The most glaring difference of course is the door placement, but the face is similar on both.

 

Kres produce the VT98 in TT, and there's a single-car version in Prignitzer Eisenbahn livery (the DB versions are driving car + trailer sets) that's generally available for around 200 euro.

 

Is it close enough? I'd say no, the doors are just too blatant a difference - but it wouldn't be too big a project it would involve a fair bit of work, but wouldn't be impossible to kitbash an acceptable British version.

 

However, Kres also have reworked the VT98 tooling to do a DB work railcar based on the type, with fewer windows... so if the initial releases from Heljan are a success, Kres might be talked into (probably as a special run for a British distributor) doing the BR variant...

Edited June 19, 2022 by britishcolumbian

[rodshaw]

On 16/06/2022 at 22:53, britishcolumbian said:

 

The SW1200s from MTB are discontinued, yeah, so there are no RTR locomotives at the moment, but one is in the works. And there is a decent array of rolling stock... RTR there are some boxcars, open hoppers, and modern-ish tank cars - plus six varieties of PS-1 boxcar are coming in the autumn sometime, and a further thereafter. And there are the super short-run things, but a lot of that is pricey: I paid 100 euro each for a CP Rail insulated boxcar and two Pacific Fruit Express refrigerated cars. And a decent array of kits, too. I've been doing TT for the better part of 20 years now, and the NorAm scene is light years ahead of where it was when I started.

Yes, I was probably a bit unfair about the freight offerings. The tank cars particularly are very nice. But my view is coloured because I prefer post-roofwalk era boxcars.

But back to the locos...come on Heljan! Though I appreciate this thread is really about British RTR.

[britishcolumbian]

6 minutes ago, rodshaw said:

Yes, I was probably a bit unfair about the freight offerings. The tank cars particularly are very nice. But my view is coloured because I prefer post-roofwalk era boxcars.

But back to the locos...come on Heljan! Though I appreciate this thread is really about British RTR.

Hehe... whereas the post-roofwalk era holds just about 0 interest for me

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

 

And yet there have been French models produced in TT since the BTTB days. SNCF modellers may be a teensy market but they do exist.

 

That's interesting. I have lived in France for ten years, and visited it for years before that, and regularly bought French mags and went to at least one or two exhibitions a year. I have never seen a single TT layout, in the mags or on show.

 

But, my local model shop does indeed stock Tillig TT items. So I guess someone must buy it!

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

 

That's interesting. I have lived in France for ten years, and visited it for years before that, and regularly bought French mags and went to at least one or two exhibitions a year. I have never seen a single TT layout, in the mags or on show.

 

But, my local model shop does indeed stock Tillig TT items. So I guess someone must buy it!

 

That of course will be German outline...

 

Similarly there are already TT modellers in Britain. I've seen a Czech branch in TT Smrzovka  and Rekoboy has a sizeable DR layout, Kirchheim

 

But neither is likely to be able to use a Class 31, an Austerity, an 08 , or a USA tank. That's not what they're modelling

 

I'm trying to damp down choices of prototypes justified on the basis of wholly illusory markets on the Continent. If it ran in Germany or Eastern Europe you stand a chance. But if it ran in Western Europe, forget it. There are such tiny numbers modelling their local scene in TT that it will make no measurable difference to the sales of the model 

[britishcolumbian]

5 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

But if it ran in Western Europe, forget it. There are such tiny numbers modelling their local scene in TT that it will make no measurable difference to the sales of the model

And yet Tillig consistently, if only occasionally, releases western European subjects - SNCF, DSB/Danish private railways, SNCB, CFL... an Italian steamer was announced not too long ago (yes, there are TT scalers in Italy too, I've seen a nice etched kits for that one ubiquitous old B-B electric), so there must be demand enough!

[friscopete]

Hornby will do a Titfield Thunderbox set.Rapido will start a US and Canadian  TT line 🤣.Dapol will do Terriers and  a Pannier😍 .Bachmann will ignore it .🤢

[eldomtom2]

36 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

But neither is likely to be able to use a... ...USA tank

They were used in Austria...

[Ravenser]

30 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

They were used in Austria...

 

That is  a little more promising. 

 

Since French , Italian, Dutch and Belgian wagons run across the Continent , of course they run in Germany (and Eastern Europe) and of course you can sell them to modellers there. A DB layout with only DB wagons is as credible as a GW layout with only GW wagons. Except of course you can go down to your local station in Germany and see the mix for yourself.

 

British outline TT-120 will have to carry itself. Sales in Britain will make RTR models viable or not. The idea that sales in Continental Europe will be a significant part of total sales is a mirage, and the idea that the key factor for whether  a model viable or not is whether the prototype ran on the Continent is badly mistaken. Unless it ran in Germany or Eastern Europe it won't make much difference to sales

 

The fact that the previous proposal for a Class 66 in TT failed to happen is very significant. If a 66 - a bread and butter type found in significant numbers across Germany and Poland - didn't go into production, then the idea that things which were obscure exotica in penny numbers in places where hardly anyone models in TT are the subjects to go for, because sales on the Continent will make them viable , is extremely flawed

 

A J94 is a good choice for the British market. If sales in  Britain are not enough to make it a success, Dutch sales won't save the project

[andythenorth]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

The fact that the previous proposal for a Class 66 in TT failed to happen is very significant. If a 66 - a bread and butter type found in significant numbers across Germany and Poland - didn't go into production.

 

The 66 was an intended model from Mehano.  Mehano had their own financial problems, and exited TT production https://www.ttnut.com/viewtopic.php?t=205

 

That might be an evidence point for lack of a TT market, but I don't think it's a cast iron argument. 💰🙃  

 

Tend to agree that a class 66 is a very different thing to e.g. a WD steam engine or similar.

Edited June 20, 2022 by andythenorth

[britishcolumbian]

I've been introducing myself into the world of BR rolling stock and I discovered something that I think might be worthwhile for early production of goods stock: wagons for continental service. Specifically I discovered the Lowmacs diagrams 2/242, 2/247 and 2/254, which carried the anchor marking and "British Railways" lettering and were sent on rail ferries over to the Continent.

 

I imagine there were more than only these wagons that were used in ferry service, and I figure these may be good subjects to release RTR models of as they'd automatically have a market on the Continent, too... especially if they found themselves in Germany, perhaps supplying the BAOR? (Tillig has done a few BAOR carriages - German stock but lettered for the British Army; they've done models of the equivalent stock belonging to the American and French occupational forces as well. I *think* they've also done a locomotive lettered for the BAOR, too, I think a V36, but I'm not 100% certain off hand if it was actually produced or just proposed pending sufficient pre-orders).

[andythenorth]

40 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I've been introducing myself into the world of BR rolling stock

 

The train-ferry wagon wishlist game is probably worth a thread in its own right 😉

 

You've probably found Paul's site already: https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ferrywagons

 

There's also a David Ratcliffe book https://www.amazon.co.uk/International-Wagons-Colour-Modeller-Historian/dp/0711034044/ref=sr_1_2?crid=19A9QZCTG4K71&keywords=ratcliffe+ferry+wagons&qid=1655713275&sprefix=ratcliffe+ferry+wagons%2Caps%2C56&sr=8-2

 

I've mentioned some obvious candidates in other threads, but a couple more are: 

• French Autics, probably expensive models though  https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stvamatautic
• NACCO swing roof polybulks, at least 3 liveries, long-lived, many traffics https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/frenchpolybulk 

[Moria15]

Been thinking about this a lot.  What I would like to see, to get us up and running so to speak, is a standard wheelbase (well as standard as you can get) motorised chasis for a tender.  I think that this would enable many locomotives to be built as the wheelsets for locos etc are freely available.  The tenders will be big enough to dcc and probably be fitted with sound and stay alive (if it can be done in "N" then it can be done in TT1:120) and then 3d print manufacturers could provide an appropriate wheelbase chassis for their locos that all you would need to add are bearings, pickups and wheels, and the tenders could be printed to fit on that chassis.

 

I know this doesn't help with tank engines, but I believe it would seriously enhance options for the first few years.

 

Am thinking a standard 7'6" x 7'6" tender chassis with motor mount would cover pretty much the majority of GWR and LMS tender classes  (sorry not up on SR or LNER 6 wheel tenders)

 

Graham

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Moria15

[Keith Addenbrooke]

I wonder if this might be helpful, particularly in terms of helping us frame expectations of timescale for getting established?

 

My first layout was a small N-Gauge set up I had from about 1977 to 1982.  I think commercial N-Gauge had been around for something like a decade by the time I got started (I’m not counting early OOO).  Although the world was very different then, this list of r-t-r may help inform understanding - I’m not trying to start a thread drift, so I’ll take it as given that realism and reliability have moved on in leaps and bounds since those early days, and acknowledge there’ll be some items I’ve forgotten.  My aim is simply to give an indication of the kind of range of r-t-r Rolling Stock that was available after about ten years:

 

Peco: Peco had one locomotive, the LMS Jubilee 4-6-0 (I think it was made for them by Rivarossi?).  They also had a wide range of r-t-r Wagons, which were also available unpainted as simple Wonderful Wagon Kits which took just a few minutes to assemble.

 

Grafar (Graham Farish): a larger range, some of which replicated their OO offerings.  From memory these included:

GWR Pannier Tank 0-6-0T 94xx Class (9400).

GWR Large Prairie 2-6-2T.

GWR Hall Class 4-6-0 (Burton Agnes Hall?).

A ‘General Purpose’ 0-6-0 Tank Engine (that could pass as a Jinty).  I think it was in SR, LMS and LNER liveries.

SR Streamlined / unrebuilt West Country or Battle of Britain Class Light Pacific 4-6-0.

There were coaches liveried for the ‘Big Four’ (some generic offered in multiple liveries), plus wagons’.

A Class 08 0-6-0 diesel shunter (08 113) came a bit later, as did other models (eg: Class 25 diesel).

 

Minitrix (sold as Hornby Minitrix I think): Dock Shunter 0-6-0T (Steam engine), Class 2MT 2-6-0, Class 9f 2-10-0 Evening Star, Class 27 Green Bo-Bo Diesel, Class 42 Diesel-Hydraulic Warship (D823 Hermes) in Blue with full yellow ends.  I think a Class 47 came along around 1980 too.  Also a range of coaches (incl. BR Mk1s) and wagons.

 

Lima: Class 55 Deltic, Class 31 Brush Type 2 A1A-A1A (of particular note for TT:120 of course), Class 86 Bo-Bo Overhead Electric, LMS Class 4F 0-6-0 tender locomotive.  Also BR Mk1 Coaches and other rolling stock.

 

I think a Class 50 diesel and a Class 37 appeared, as did an HST and a DMU, but I’m not sure from whom.  I can’t remember if there were other LNER locomotives available - possibly as it had yet to catch my imagination.  As we move forwards in time through the 1980s and forwards the Graham Farish range began to expand, although Lima and Minitrix would fade away.  

 

But even allowing for omissions, if you took quite a broad view it was just about possible to put together a layout for any of the Big Four, BR Steam or contemporary BR diesel.  The big challenge for potential manufacturers now is the way expectations have risen - there are some great suggestions in this thread, but we generally have a much more defined view of accuracy, not just in terms of detail but in terms of where and how particular classes of locomotive and rolling stock were used.  We shall see, Keith.

[Allegheny1600]

13 minutes ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I wonder if this might be helpful, particularly in terms of helping us frame expectations of timescale for getting established?

 

My first layout was a small N-Gauge set up I had from about 1977 to 1982.  I think commercial N-Gauge had been around for something like a decade by the time I got started (I’m not counting early OOO).  Although the world was very different then, this list of r-t-r may help inform understanding - I’m not trying to start a thread drift, so I’ll take it as given that realism and reliability have moved on in leaps and bounds since those early days, and acknowledge there’ll be some items I’ve forgotten.  My aim is simply to give an indication of the kind of range of r-t-r Rolling Stock that was available after about ten years:

 

Peco: Peco had one locomotive, the LMS Jubilee 4-6-0 (I think it was made for them by Rivarossi?).  They also had a wide range of r-t-r Wagons, which were also available unpainted as simple Wonderful Wagon Kits which took just a few minutes to assemble.

 

Grafar (Graham Farish): a larger range, some of which replicated their OO offerings.  From memory these included:

GWR Pannier Tank 0-6-0T 94xx Class (9400).

GWR Large Prairie 2-6-2T.

GWR Hall Class 4-6-0 (Burton Agnes Hall?).

A ‘General Purpose’ 0-6-0 Tank Engine (that could pass as a Jinty).  I think it was in SR, LMS and LNER liveries.

SR Streamlined / unrebuilt West Country or Battle of Britain Class Light Pacific 4-6-0.

There were coaches liveried for the ‘Big Four’ (some generic offered in multiple liveries), plus wagons’.

A Class 08 0-6-0 diesel shunter (08 113) came a bit later, as did other models (eg: Class 25 diesel).

 

Minitrix (sold as Hornby Minitrix I think): Dock Shunter 0-6-0T (Steam engine), Class 2MT 2-6-0, Class 9f 2-10-0 Evening Star, Class 27 Green Bo-Bo Diesel, Class 42 Diesel-Hydraulic Warship (D823 Hermes) in Blue with full yellow ends.  I think a Class 47 came along around 1980 too.  Also a range of coaches (incl. BR Mk1s) and wagons.

 

Lima: Class 55 Deltic, Class 31 Brush Type 2 A1A-A1A (of particular note for TT:120 of course), Class 86 Bo-Bo Overhead Electric, LMS Class 4F 0-6-0 tender locomotive.  Also BR Mk1 Coaches and other rolling stock.

 

I think a Class 50 diesel and a Class 37 appeared, as did an HST and a DMU, but I’m not sure from whom.  I can’t remember if there were other LNER locomotives available - possibly as it had yet to catch my imagination.  As we move forwards in time through the 1980s and forwards the Graham Farish range began to expand, although Lima and Minitrix would fade away.  

 

But even allowing for omissions, if you took quite a broad view it was just about possible to put together a layout for any of the Big Four, BR Steam or contemporary BR diesel.  The big challenge for potential manufacturers now is the way expectations have risen - there are some great suggestions in this thread, but we generally have a much more defined view of accuracy, not just in terms of detail but in terms of where and how particular classes of locomotive and rolling stock were used.  We shall see, Keith.

Hi Keith,

You’ve reminded me of my N gauge years, from 1983 for approximately five years or so! (Thanks, good memories!)

Peco’s Jubilee was indeed by Rivarrossi and I thought it quite okay, they also did a Hymek in kit form.

GraFar, pretty much as I recall, most models were quite crude and the wheels were awful.

Minitrix varied from good (9F and Britannia) to poor, the 2mt and the 0-6-0T, diesels were mixed, I’m sure the 27 was a little hefty but very reliable and the 47 was the one we all wanted.

Lima were a very mixed bunch of widely differing scales, I think their 31 was the only one worth having.

There was also a 2-6-4T by Wrenn that was a bit rough!

 I ended up as a loco doctor for a friend or two who had extensive collections, a lot of those models needed work.

 

What I clearly recall from those days was that the German built stuff was much better made than the Italian and British stuff.

 I was involved with a large British N exhibition layout up until five or six years ago and everything had come on in leaps and bounds. My “best” GraFar (Poole) loco had to be the class 40, in those days, it was excellent but by comparison, the current Chinese made one is a step above and very nearly brought me back. I do find N a bit too small these days though, hence some of my excitement about new TT.

 

Hopefully, currently  proposed TT models won’t have to go through the twenty or thirty plus year development period that N scale went through, otherwise I won’t live to see it!

[Moria15]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

I wonder if this might be helpful, particularly in terms of helping us frame expectations of timescale for getting established?

 

My first layout was a small N-Gauge set up I had from about 1977 to 1982.  I think commercial N-Gauge had been around for something like a decade by the time I got started (I’m not counting early OOO).  Although the world was very different then, this list of r-t-r may help inform understanding - I’m not trying to start a thread drift, so I’ll take it as given that realism and reliability have moved on in leaps and bounds since those early days, and acknowledge there’ll be some items I’ve forgotten.  My aim is simply to give an indication of the kind of range of r-t-r Rolling Stock that was available after about ten years:

 

 

 

Was it Graham Farish that produced the little tank engine in GE Blue that had red connecting rods that would ping across the room at the slightest opportunity because they weren't fully attatched to the wheels?   I remember spending hours searching for those con-rods and putting them back, at least once per operating session :)

 

Graham