Jump to content
 

How will TT:120 differentiate itself from N, OO and 3mm scale?


whart57
 Share

Recommended Posts

I do wonder just how many of those criticising this 'new' scale have actually been inside a new build starter home ? TT120 at least addresses minimal space housing and may well have a significantly better future  development than the larger options. If I were in the retail trade I'd be welcoming this with open arms.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Can we add some pinned threads please?

 

  1. "Click here to complain TT:120 isn't 3mm scale”
  2. “Click here to point out TT:120 will never work because OO and N exist"
  3. "Click here to inform us that because not everything is available from the start, TT:120 has already failed”
  4. ”Click here to say ‘but won't somebody please think of the children’”
  5. “Click here if you just generally don't like the idea of TT:120 and needed to let us know”
  • Like 2
  • Agree 3
  • Round of applause 1
  • Funny 10
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said.  As the only major model railway supplier still manufacturing in the UK you have to accept that it knows what its doing.  Obviously the attempt, with partners, to introduce TT:120 to the UK is secondary to its primary aim which is the European market.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

Well said.  As the only major model railway supplier still manufacturing in the UK you have to accept that it knows what its doing.  Obviously the attempt, with partners, to introduce TT:120 to the UK is secondary to its primary aim which is the European market.

 

I dunno...

 

Firstly, TT-120 is the biggest boldest commercial gamble I've seen from the trade in British outline modelling in my lifetime. (and I'm not 19 years old...)

 

This is absolutely not an incremental move in known and proven territory, such as we are accustomed to. Such a big , bold and unforeseen move could fail . To emphasise how big and radical a project TT-120 is : we haven't had a new commercial scale in British outline for over 50 years. We've only had three such ventures in the last century, and one of those failed

 

Peco are not noted for big bold moves. The TT-120 project is their biggest gamble in living memory. Success of the project is therefore not something we can assume is guaranteed.

 

Secondly, Heljan's 31 and most of the TT-120 items announced by Peco and others cannot be aimed primarily at the Continental market. 31s have never run there. And I remain convinced that the centre-piece of all this is still to come. There is someone out there who is going to announce a modest but significant group of British outline RTR models in TT-120

 

Peco will no doubt be able to recover the tooling costs of the track over time from sales in the Mittel-Europa market if TT-120 is a failure here. But for everything else being announced  in TT-120 success in the British market is essential to recovering the investment

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Peco’s UK wooden buildings are not a significant investment (compared to e.g injection moulding), and PECO is a family business with a historical reason to push TT:120 as discussed at least once here recently 🙂

 

Heljan have made a niche out of limited production runs - whether that’s O gauge stuff, or their obscure prototype diesels. They probably know how to gamble. The 31 will likely have a relatively high price, and might well sell out at least one run, as scalpers might buy and hold - in the case that UK TT:120 fails, they’ll have long term novelty value as collectables.


I hope you’re right that there’s a major announcement coming. That would be truly excellent. It’s not Accurascale though, Mcc has already ruled that out. Dapol are having trouble getting anything delivered and have no form on cohesive ranges. Bachmannn would be nice, but there’s no indication so far. Rumour is Hornby, but Hornby seem to have management and finance issues, so eh, who knows?

 

Time for a startup? 😬🤪

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

Peco’s UK wooden buildings are not a significant investment (compared to e.g injection moulding), and PECO is a family business with a historical reason to push TT:120 as discussed at least once here recently 🙂

 

Heljan have made a niche out of limited production runs - whether that’s O gauge stuff, or their obscure prototype diesels. They probably know how to gamble. The 31 will likely have a relatively high price, and might well sell out at least one run, as scalpers might buy and hold - in the case that UK TT:120 fails, they’ll have long term novelty value as collectables.


I hope you’re right that there’s a major announcement coming. That would be truly excellent. It’s not Accurascale though, Mcc has already ruled that out. Dapol are having trouble getting anything delivered and have no form on cohesive ranges. Bachmannn would be nice, but there’s no indication so far. Rumour is Hornby, but Hornby seem to have management and finance issues, so eh, who knows?

 

Time for a startup? 😬🤪

 

It is possible that it could be a Continental European firm with existing TT interests. A couple of locos, a couple of coaches, a couple of wagons. Manageable, as an addition to an existing range.

 

If you were a Continental manufacturer considering a British play - then N already looks crowded. So does OO - there are few major gaps  left in locos

 

But TT-120, as a British play? Something unique, something with a scale track gauge, something offering an alternative to N in small spaces? A higher -risk / higher reward play?

 

The people behind Lima had a second shot at the British market as Vi-trains. That kind /size of play might be possible. Roco have worked with Peco on OO9 and the Flieschmann group has dabbled in the British market in the past. Maybe Piko. Or some niche manufacturer in collaboration with Peco.

 

I think we can rule out Tillig. They already make 12mm gauge track - so collaboration with Peco on track makes no sense for them

  • Like 1
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

I dunno...

 

Firstly, TT-120 is the biggest boldest commercial gamble I've seen from the trade in British outline modelling in my lifetime. (and I'm not 19 years old...)

 

This is absolutely not an incremental move in known and proven territory, such as we are accustomed to. Such a big , bold and unforeseen move could fail . To emphasise how big and radical a project TT-120 is : we haven't had a new commercial scale in British outline for over 50 years. We've only had three such ventures in the last century, and one of those failed

 

Peco are not noted for big bold moves. The TT-120 project is their biggest gamble in living memory. Success of the project is therefore not something we can assume is guaranteed.

 

Secondly, Heljan's 31 and most of the TT-120 items announced by Peco and others cannot be aimed primarily at the Continental market. 31s have never run there. And I remain convinced that the centre-piece of all this is still to come. There is someone out there who is going to announce a modest but significant group of British outline RTR models in TT-120

 

Peco will no doubt be able to recover the tooling costs of the track over time from sales in the Mittel-Europa market if TT-120 is a failure here. But for everything else being announced  in TT-120 success in the British market is essential to recovering the investment

 

 

Sorry but I don't agree.  Peco is essentially a track manufacturer.  It will make enough to cover its investment in continental sales.  If British TT:120 fails it will still produce the track.  Look at the investment in the US Code 83 HO range, produced with virtually no UK sales envisaged.

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

I’m surprised that no one seems to have hit on the first thing that occurred to me when I saw the first excitable announcements of the “brand new scale!”. And that was: why on Earth aren’t  Peco bringing out their excellent track for 14.2mm gauge modellers, alongside, with partners, RTR locos and stock and building and scenic items for the existing but niche 3mm / 1:100 scale?

 

Alternately, why would Peco spend the money to tool track for 3mm?

 

If they did that then the only market they could sell to would be the UK market and it would not be big enough to be worth the gamble.

 

The big reason that TT:120 is generating interest is precisely because it is finally an option for the UK market where the rail spacing is correct in potentially RTR form (yes, I know about P4 etc - but they aren't RTR).

 

That interest would likely have been much more subdued if it was merely 3mm.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

That way, they would be supporting all the modellers and other traders who’ve continued to support 3mm scale over the long, lean years.

 

That isn't Peco's job.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

But, reading this thread, there are clearly some experienced modellers out there that are interested in trying something new and are prepared to fiddle about with what limited products are currently available or realistically programmed. Modellers who really care about correct scale/gauge combinations.

I strongly suspect, however, that you are in a minority. Shock, horror! 

 

But they aren't the only ones TT:120 will sell to.

 

It will also be appealing to those with more limited space - or who want more in their space - but who find N that little bit too small (particularly when trying to deal with the modern electronics/speakers/lighting).

 

As noted by several posters now the difference between TT:120 and N is surprisingly significant.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

Imagine yourself as a retailer. A dad/grandfather comes into your shop or to your stand and asks for advice on the best scale/gauge to start in on returning to the hobby or building something for the kids. How on Earth do you sell TT 120 to him when there are so few products available and no guarantee that many more will follow, soon or even over the next few years.

 

Lets flip this.

 

How on earth does that mythical retailer sell 3mm to that mythical dad/grandfather when there are no RTR products available and not guarantee any more would follow?

 

Because anyone, whether returning to the hobby or attempting to do something for the kids/grandkids is going to look for RTR items to start.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

And even if you can persuade that person to take the plunge, what an auspicious time to launch a completely (for the U.K.) new scale / gauge combo!

 

Peco didn't just suddenly say a month ago let's build track and accessories for TT:120 - this will have been in the works for a while - at a guess at least a couple of years.  Peco has no control over what the economy does or doesn't do, but having spent the money on development they really needed to proceed anyway - particularly when they appear to have approached and have the support of others like Heljan.

 

That said, hobbies are often a strange part of the economy in as much as they can be at least somewhat recession proof.  Despite the frequent moaning they can be relatively cheap compared to things like holidays abroad and thus an easy thing to continue when worried about the household budget.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

The economy is heading for a prolonged recession and many folk are going to struggle to put food on the table and/or stay warm enough to eat it.

 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Predicting the future is hard.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

Revolution says it will have to be high quality and high price - well thanks a bunch Peco, Gaugemaster and Heljan for that!

 

Revolution has not said that - that has merely been the opinion of one of the people running Revolution in a personal capacity.

 

That said, I agree with that statement - the people complaining about prices are small part of this hobby witnessed by the fact that *no one* is tooling new cheap items anymore.  You simply can't attract the people with money to spend in this hobby without going for the accurate/detailed model route.

 

That said there will likely be options for those on more limited budgets from the kit market or by scratchbuiiding/3D printing/etc.

 

10 hours ago, Samedan said:

Good luck to the manufacturers, distributors and retailers with this one, but I feel they would have done us all a better service by supporting established scale/gauges than pushing a new one. 

 

To which I would point out that TT (aka TT:120) is an established scale and not a newly created one - albeit not in the UK.

 

As difficult as it is for those with a vested interest in 3mm it simply wouldn't offer the opportunities that TT:120 offers both for generating excitement and for offering what a segment of the UK modelling community wants in RTR.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
37 minutes ago, mdvle said:

As difficult as it is for those with a vested interest in 3mm it simply wouldn't offer the opportunities that TT:120 offers both for generating excitement and for offering what a segment of the UK modelling community wants in RTR.

 

3mm/14.2 is close enough to TT120 that it would offer pretty much exactly the same opportunities to the UK modelling community and as far as UK rtr goes you'd be starting from scratch in both cases. What has swung it is that TT120 is an established scale outside the UK.  That's perfectly sensible but it isn't due to anything innate in the scale.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

If the manufacturers are looking at encouraging new generations of lifelong model railway enthusiasts then  I imagine they have to be looking at complete 'train sets'. Hornby in particular have this down to a fine art with Bachmann  a closing rival.

With initial regard to  production costs, could we be looking towards tt120 versions of some of the 'flag ship' dmu and emus? By way of illustration,  we have already have available the Brighton Belle and Midland  Pullmans in both OO and N.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Rumour is Hornby, but Hornby seem to have management and finance issues, so eh, who knows?

Management and finance issues aside, Hornby is - via the Arnold brand - already involved in Continental TT scale. If I had to put a fiver down, it'd be on them.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

What has swung it is that TT120 is an established scale outside the UK.  

 

Something that some recent contributors to the thread seem unaware of. I've been following SG TT from the old Eastern Bloc for several decades, and since the fall of the wall it's taken off in a big way, the old BTTB stuff was acceptable but rather dated but the stuff that is produced now is superb quality and there's a lot of it, someone did a list of current manufacturers earlier in one of the threads and it was quite extensive. A fact that Peco will have known about as Mr B is a regular visitor to those parts and the trade shows, so they have decided now is the time for them to enter the market for scale TT track and that's what they've done. At the moment the British side is more of an add-on, but if successful will also add sales.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Sorry but I don't agree.  Peco is essentially a track manufacturer...... Look at the investment in the US Code 83 HO range, produced with virtually no UK sales envisaged.

Sales in the USA will be far more than in the UK, yes - Peco was already an established brand over there with British-style track, but there's a fair contingent of US outline modellers in the UK too, so I wouldn't dismiss the Code 83 range as having "virtually no UK sales" here, by any means.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:


While I completely understand the point you are making about the worsening squeeze on non-discretionary, let alone discretionary, spending, I do think that there is a rich choice of cheap, low-quality stuff around if that’s what you’re really after. You can even get cheap, high-quality stuff if you shop around carefully among secondhand things.

I accept that there is stuff to be had for those that want to search it out but I was questioning the commercial wisdom and sheer usefulness to the hobby of introducing a new, comprehensive range at relatively high price points in the current and foreseeable circumstances. Time will tell I suppose. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Hobby said:

Peco's initial market for the track is not the UK but the much larger central/east European TT market. The number of modellers in 14.2mm I doubt would make such an investment work, in addition those who do model in TT3 using 12mm track would be left out! Best of both worlds for Peco, sales in an established scale and try to create a new market over here.

All fair points in relation to the track, which I had considered myself. As a modeller of Continental railways, I’m aware of Peco’s excellent reputation overseas. It’s the attempt to launch a “completely new” scale/gauge combo onto the U.K. popular market that I question. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Samedan said:

It’s the attempt to launch a “completely new” scale/gauge combo onto the U.K. popular market that I question. 

I don’t follow.

Maerklin or someone using their chassis, attempted to launch British Z scale - admittedly not very successfully.

T scale is even smaller than Z but appears to be surviving.

 

You can easily argue that British RTR 0 gauge was a daring innovation only a few short years ago, likewise for British narrow gauge RTR.

All of these introductions piggybacked onto an existing market - AS DOES THIS INTRODUCTION!

The “problem” this time is that the market being piggybacked onto is mainly based in Eastern Europe and is different to that which presently exists in the UK. 
As has been explained, that market is not sufficient to warrant a bet on, leading its adherents to complain but no matter how much they do complain, they could never fund a ready to run range.

  • Agree 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Samedan said:

It’s the attempt to launch a “completely new” scale/gauge combo onto the U.K. popular market that I question. 

 

Why? Is it against some unwritten rule, perhaps? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
3 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Why? Is it against some unwritten rule, perhaps? 

Well, nobody's managed it successfully in 40+ years so let's hope the manufacturers have some clever strategy to make TT:120 different.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Samedan said:

All fair points in relation to the track, which I had considered myself. As a modeller of Continental railways, I’m aware of Peco’s excellent reputation overseas. It’s the attempt to launch a “completely new” scale/gauge combo onto the U.K. popular market that I question. 

 

Which PECO are doing with minimal investment and thus not risking much, not in comparison to what they are staking on the track being successful.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
54 minutes ago, Samedan said:

…but I was questioning the commercial wisdom and sheer usefulness to the hobby of introducing a new, comprehensive range at relatively high price points in the current and foreseeable circumstances. Time will tell I suppose. 

I suspect that a good proportion of those buying £300 OO diesels with DCC sound are relatively immune to recessions, and may even see some small benefit if savings interest rates go up. Men (mostly) of a certain age and income.

 

It's not a huge consumer market, and those buying at that end of the hobby can probably afford the entrance price, recession or not. 

 

Got no hard facts, but guessing addressable high end market is maybe 10 thousand or so people across the UK (rmweb has 42 thousand members as a relative indicator). That might be conservative, dunno. How many O gauge 56s do Heljan sell? Or KR models GT3s?

 

Having personally had wildly varying disposable income over the last 20 years, I do have bags of sympathy with people trying to do the hobby on a budget, but those the aren't audience for 00 gauge 4 wheel wagons at £40 RRP. 🙃

 

I do wonder if some of the £40 wagons (Bachmann VEA for example) could be £25 if we didn’t have detail that is largely unseen, but I’m guessing it’s a relatively low input cost compared to research, toolong, overall assembly, paint & dec, and shipping / distribution.

 

All speculative obviously, and agree, time will tell.

 

 

 

Edited by andythenorth
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I do love a good argument. And there’s nothing more enlightening than a bunch of armchair entrepreneurs and economists, myself included, speculating on the direction of a new business venture. 
To be clear, I have no skin in this game, as they say, except maybe a sentimental liking for old fashioned TT-3. I will definitely not be pursuing TT 120, as I have quite enough diverse interests to spend my precious time and money on, but I’ve no quarrel with anyone who fancies it.

So, why do I have any interest or concern about it then, do I hear you ask? I guess it’s because, in lean economic times (and we sure as hell are heading into one), the business community supporting hobbies can be very vulnerable. The model railway business community is undeniably global and that’s a tricky space to operate in at the moment and for the foreseeable.
We’ve all agreed, I think, that this may well be a relatively low risk venture for Peco, because of the strong overseas interest in TT 120. It’s noticeable that the three main manufacturers / suppliers involved are already experienced in U.K.-European collaboration and, given the growing frostiness towards China, that may represent the future (Brexit difficulties notwithstanding)?

But if scarce investment funds are directed towards a completely new venture, rather than supporting existing markets (I’m talking just about the U.K. here, clearly), then the delicate business-consumer ecosystem of the hobby is potentially weakened. If, because they’ve overstretched trying to jump on this bandwagon, large, medium or small businesses in the hobby go under in the next couple of years, or even if other projects and innovations are merely set further back, then the ordinary enthusiast will reap the consequences and the hobby will be less healthy overall.

Time will tell. I just hope it doesn’t all end in tears. 

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
9 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Well, nobody's managed it successfully in 40+ years so let's hope the manufacturers have some clever strategy to make TT:120 different.

Is there a list of those who've tried?
 

Maybe there's learning to be had...

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
Just now, andythenorth said:

Is there a list of those who've tried?
 

Maybe there's learning to be had...

Off the top of my head, failed British outline commercial RtR since 1970 (OK scary to think that's 50 years not 40):-

 

Rivarossi HO

Fleischmann HO

Lima HO

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Samedan said:

And there’s nothing more enlightening than a bunch of armchair entrepreneurs and economists, myself included, speculating on the direction of a new business venture. 

 

I think you'll find that it's the anti TT 1:120 people that are doing that (whether you put yourself in that category is up to you), those of us with open minds and a genuine interest in it have been saying all along let's wait and see. Hence I don't see any point in speculating and trying to talk something down, which seems to be a trend by some people - sadly. Time will tell.

 

18 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Off the top of my head, failed British outline commercial RtR since 1970 (OK scary to think that's 50 years not 40):-

 

Rivarossi HO

Fleischmann HO

Lima HO

 

I'd suggest they are a very different kettle of fish, 00 is, historically, regarded as the British equivalent of H0, so much so that many accessories, and even stock, has been and is marketed as H0/00. So asking someone to accept a British outline model that runs on the same track as their 00 models but is a tad smaller was always doomed to failure, there was simply no need to do it, 00 was far too well established by then. This is not the same scenario, it uses a different scale and gauge to any existing British scale/gauge combo, current or past, for the UK it is effectively a new scale just like Z and T.

 

I would say, though, that had Triang launched their range as H0 scale back in the 50s, 00 may not even exist these days... Rather similar to Triang using 3mm/ft back then as well.

Edited by Hobby
  • Like 2
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...