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How will TT:120 differentiate itself from N, OO and 3mm scale?


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41 minutes ago, Samedan said:

…there’s nothing more enlightening than a bunch of armchair entrepreneurs and economists, myself included, speculating on the direction of a new business venture.

I am slightly seriously considering a TT venture, but not solo, I have a business to run already…

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12 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I would say, though, that had Triang launched their range as H0 scale back in the 50s, 00 may not even exist these days... Rather similar to Triang using 3mm/ft back then as well.

 i believe that after WW2,  British manufacturers where debating what small scale gauge relationships should be developed for UK model railways since there was pretty well a clean slate.  But Hornby scuppered what plans were being discussed by re-starting the production of Hornby-Dublo using their pre-war tooling and carrying on the 4mm scale on 16.5mm gauge.

 

Jim.

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Peco appears to be on to a winner in Germany already. The TT-Board forum is running a section on Peco's 1:120 and the verdict on the turnouts is very positive - one member has run all of his locos and a section of stock from 1980s BTTB through to present day Roco and Piko over a test track and is thoroughly impressed. No stalling, no derailments. A number of comments imply that the turnouts, while very well engineered, are a bit heavy on the appearance side - one member commented that he would be over the moon if you could combine Kuehn-Modell's track's delicate appearance with Peco's reliability!

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11 hours ago, natterjack said:

If the manufacturers are looking at encouraging new generations of lifelong model railway enthusiasts then  I imagine they have to be looking at complete 'train sets'.

 

While there is still a small market for train sets they really are a more of a thing of the past that many older members of this hobby can't let go of.

 

In today's world there are many ways to get people into this hobby, in particular videos on YouTube and stuff on Facebook - and potentially even TikTok these days.

 

There is something of a desire among many in our increasingly digital and virtual world to escape from it in their personal time with something physical - whether that be the increase in interest in vinyl records or a more physical hobby like model trains - and so people actively seek out something to do as they get older (as in over 25) even if they never experienced it as a kid.

 

As for those kids who are really interested in trains, they are still there even if they no longer are seen on the end of platforms - they are finding each other on social media and sharing amongst themselves.

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3 hours ago, Samedan said:

So, why do I have any interest or concern about it then, do I hear you ask? I guess it’s because, in lean economic times (and we sure as hell are heading into one), the business community supporting hobbies can be very vulnerable. The model railway business community is undeniably global and that’s a tricky space to operate in at the moment and for the foreseeable.

 

The biggest threat to the companies in our hobby isn't a potential recession but rather the supply chain and shipping issues - most of the companies doing RTR rely on a quarterly cash flow to keep the business operating and items delayed for months waiting for electronics or delayed for months sitting in a container are a serious threat.

 

3 hours ago, Samedan said:

But if scarce investment funds are directed towards a completely new venture, rather than supporting existing markets (I’m talking just about the U.K. here, clearly), then the delicate business-consumer ecosystem of the hobby is potentially weakened.

 

The hobby has evolved over the last 30+ years where the companies now rely on new tooled items to generate interest and sales - and the bigger problem for them isn't a potentially risky venture into TT:120 but rather the increasing difficulty of finding something to tool in OO that isn't a 4+ car multiple unit.  The same appears to be the case in 7mm/O where there appears to be dwindling opportunities given the size of the models vs available space.

 

To that end it is possible that TT:120 could actually be something that helps the hobby (given that for whatever reason most people have decided N is just that little bit too small to be of interest to them).

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14 minutes ago, mdvle said:

While there is still a small market for train sets they really are a more of a thing of the past that many older members of this hobby can't let go of.

 

In today's world there are many ways to get people into this hobby, in particular videos on YouTube and stuff on Facebook - and potentially even TikTok these days.

 

The beauty of a train set for a beginner is that everything you need to get started is in a box. Don't underestimate the benefits of making things easy for people.

 

Also, they make good presents. Far better than handing a list of disparate items to a relative looking to buy something. 

 

Finally, if they are so old hat, why do Hornby still make them, and non-railway retailers stock them? 

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1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Also, they make good presents. Far better than handing a list of disparate items to a relative looking to buy something. 

 

Finally, if they are so old hat, why do Hornby still make them, and non-railway retailers stock them? 

+1 to all of the above, but a red box oval at christmas for a 5 year old is one thing (and comes from Amazon, Argos or Smyths). 🙂

 

Pre-order or crowd-funded high-end, limited run models for (mostly) wealthy (mostly) old (mostly) men are another.

 

Some members of the forum tend to associate the one with the other quite strongly, which is fine, but almost certainly also wrong 🙃

Edited by andythenorth
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1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Finally, if they are so old hat, why do Hornby still make them, and non-railway retailers stock them? 

 

My point was more that they are no longer the default gift for kids, whether at Christmas or a birthday, that they were in the past.  Thus they are no longer the default way into the hobby for the generations to come. 

 

Yes, they have their place, but stating that TT:120 will live/die on the availability of train sets is false.

 

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5 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Off the top of my head, failed British outline commercial RtR since 1970 (OK scary to think that's 50 years not 40):-

 

Rivarossi HO

Fleischmann HO

Lima HO

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m sorry as this isn’t the place for this but maybe have a read through here;

To summarise,

Rivarossi was neither H0 nor 00 but something in between.

Fleischmann were counting on Lima remaining in the H0 market.

Lima or rather, the importer, Riko wanted more profit so switched to 00.

 

When Lima switched, it left Fleischmann high and dry. An important consideration today?

 

The only relevant part of this story is that there is still a desire amongst certain segments of the British modelling public that desires RTR with the correct scale/gauge combination.

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1 hour ago, mdvle said:

While there is still a small market for train sets they really are a more of a thing of the past that many older members of this hobby can't let go of.

 

Well, if that 'many' is reasonably substantial it would seem to suggest an existing base market. The point about train sets is they are stand alone and can remain that way, and thus have an abiding attraction within themselves.

Much of the speculation herein concerns railway modelling as a hobby whereas 'train sets' offer the ready availability for occasional diversion and play with the options to expand in due course (and ageing). I reiterate my earlier comments on the restrictions new build domestic space, a great deal of which is aimed at those starting families (Parker Morris anybody?).

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I'd have thought more items are needed to make the scale a success. In particular there is a lack of joined-up thinking so far, where Peco are concentrating on steam-age GWR whilst the only loco so far announced didn't arrive on the WR until some time after the steam had gone.

 

I doubt that Dapol would get involved. They're mainly into O gauge these days. In N the Bulleid Light Pacific announced back in 2011 is still awaited, and the re-tooled M7 appears to have stalled, although they have been good at issuing new runs of existing models. Bachmann I doubt would be interested — their Liliput brand has never done TT for the German market, and their answer for those with limited space is N or 009.

 

I think it would probably make more sense for Hornby. Most of the big named steam locos they like to do have already been done in N to modern standards, apart from the aforementioned Light Pacific and the LMS "Princess Royal" Pacifics — and perhaps the GWR King. They are facing increasing competition on their range of diesel locos, with the 56 and 31 both affected. But whether they will, is much harder to say.

 

Up to now, Heljan appear to be taking the biggest gamble.

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46 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I’m sorry as this isn’t the place for this but maybe have a read through here;

To summarise,

Rivarossi was neither H0 nor 00 but something in between.

Fleischmann were counting on Lima remaining in the H0 market.

Lima or rather, the importer, Riko wanted more profit so switched to 00.

 

When Lima switched, it left Fleischmann high and dry. An important consideration today?

 

The only relevant part of this story is that there is still a desire amongst certain segments of the British modelling public that desires RTR with the correct scale/gauge combination.

 

However....

 

If a deadscale gauge is important , then the models concerned have to have a certain finesse.

 

One of the killers with British HO for me has always been the crudeness of the elderly models involved. The Playcraft NBL Type 2 is an extreme example, but I know my reworked Hornby 21 and 29 are light years better in every respect - even though the Dapol model knocks spots off them

 

And if British HO is to be a dead-scale option - then plonking down crude coarse over-scale Peco code 100 (as it seems is inevitable  with British HO) in a scale 7/8ths of 4mm blows any credibility attained by the scale gauge.

 

Put simply attempts at  British HO seem to involve huge compromises in every direction except track gauge, so that I feel I would far rather compromise the track gauge in order to retain all the other advantages of finesse and trade support found in modern 4mm. 

 

This is relevant to TT-120. Although N gauge is much closer to scale gauge than OO it has always been the crudest and coarsest of the commercial gauges , taking refuge in the proposition "it is not done well; but you are surprised to see it done at all"

 

I know N has improved dramatically in the last 20 years. However it is still quite vulnerable in this area. The N gauge layouts I see in the magazines and at shows generally don't have the finesse and authenticity I'm used to in 4mm (Grahame Hedges' layouts and Banbury are honourable exceptions)

 

The finesse and quality of Peco's laser cut buildings and their proof-of-concept diorama bode well. "Finescale in small spaces usung RTR mechanisms and track" seems to me a very saleable package . For various reasons neither N, nor 4mm nor 3mm are really hitting that mark, and if TT-120 can , then it has a future

 

But quality results and a certain authenticity of scene are essential. "Cheap and cheerful" and "representational" won't do it

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1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

 

The only relevant part of this story is that there is still a desire amongst certain segments of the British modelling public that desires RTR with the correct scale/gauge combination.

Not a very big segment as nobody has made a commercial RtR success of it in any gauge below 'O'.

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Regarding the correct scale/gauge issue guessing on the size of the market based on things that happened 30+ years ago - when the hobby was very different - isn't likely to be very useful.

 

It is worth noting that while no one is at the point of really considering doing RTR P4(*) it is becoming more common for P4 considerations to be taken into account when designing new models to allow for easier conversion.

 

Also missing (for obvious reasons that it is outside the interest of those posting on here) is that the availability of quality mainstream TT/TT:120 track from Peco could also create some interest in new EU models coming from the existing HO/N manufacturers who so far have ignored TT - with the financial benefits to Peco of additional track sales beyond the current existing TT market.

 

As for potential UK models trying to guess the intentions is fun but we really won't know unless they do announce something - and denials is the business standard up until the actual announcement (unless a teaser campaign is done to attempt to create demand).  While their certainly are risks to bringing product to market for TT:120 there also is potential upside to being in early and staking a claim to certain models.

 

 

 

* - yes SLW offer it as an option, but they remain very niche.

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When Hornby-Arnold announced their plans for TT-120 quite a number of TT modellers in Germany shook their heads and commented that there were already too many competitors (Tillig, Roco, Piko, Kuehn..) and that Hornby would pull out again quickly. Hornby has been very careful to check for gaps in the market and to ascertain what the TT fans want. Thus far they have only 5 locos in the range - a shunting tractor (Köf), originally introduced as the only TT loco in the original Arnold programme, which has turned out to be astonishingly popular as every larger German wayside station and every depot possessed at least one - and in spite of its small size it runs well. Then came the battery shunter, at which German fans shook their heads - but every E German loco depot (and now some all-German ones) had at least one of these vehicles to move dead locos around the depot - and many industrial sites had one, too. It sold well. The two biggest hits, which had many TT enthusiasts, including me, salivating in anticipation for months were firstly the 2-10-2 tank loco of class 95, the so-called Mountain Queen, which was in service in E Germany up to the early 1980s on the steeply graded lines in Thuringia, and then the lovely class 58 2-10-0 steam loco, the Prussian Kriegslok of the first world war, some of which lasted almost to the end of steam on the E German Reichsbahn. The BR 95 is excellent, it looks the part and runs beautifully, In real life one of those machines in preservation has to be seen in action, as does the BR 58 which is short and stumpy and powerful with three cylinders and the most wonderful exhaust beat. Of course, the steam locos sold out in no time - and now Hornby teases the fans with the question whether there will be a second series -although Tillig spoiled things with their version of the BR 95. The fourth loco is interesting as it is a CoCo electric of the only 25Kv class in E Germany, built for the electric island that is the steeply graded Rübelandbahn in the Harz Mountains. There was a gamble, I think, on the loco being seen as a 'neverwazza' and being employed as a pretend standard 15Kv loco on electrified layouts alongside the various electrics made by Tillig. The plan came off, I think, and the loco has sold well. Might Hornby go further in TT? Maybe, but remember the tooling costs and assembly costs for a steamer are much higher than those of a diesel. Oh, yes, one other thing - the quality of Hornby-Arnold's TT locos is absolutely top - I cannot fault the BR 95 and the BR 58, both in running and appearance, although the rivet counters criticize the lack of weight and the unrealistic crew members.

1573990043_KfuKessel.JPG.182dea12882bd6a5535153f9f2d25501.JPG1360988600_ASF1.JPG.9bd47854f903d1bfd9e5ea477f86d150.JPG1735515392_BR95inKirchheim.jpg.69c7e143aec116f9ecb2d0bcad89b725.jpg99786135_HornbyBR581.jpg.d1c0733808cc3bb0890130790c1ae80e.jpg

Edited by rekoboy
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A linear Minories type MLT- FY layout capable of handling five coach loco-hauled trains (the minimum to my eyes that can convincingly be passed off as an express in the smaller scales) requires an absolute minimum length of about fifteen feet, or say 4.5 m, in British OO or European H0 (their full size coaches are longer) . From a fairly quick calculation I reckon  that in 1:120 scale  the equivalent would fit fairly comfortably in about eleven feet with typical ep IV European coaches and a bit less with say British 57-60 ft coaches. Unless you go into the loft or garage, very few British houses have a fifteen foot length available in any rooms except perhaps a through lounge, most though have a clear wall length of 11-13 ft somewhere. 

That's just one example that happens to affect me (my longest wall is 13ft or 4m long and for various reasons an L doesn't work for me)  Similar scaling would probably work for fitting many desired layout into spaces that are just that bit too small in 00 or H0. 

 

Edited by Pacific231G
grammar
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14 hours ago, rekoboy said:

 

99786135_HornbyBR581.jpg.d1c0733808cc3bb0890130790c1ae80e.jpg

 

Am I right in thinking that the  track is Tillig TT? I'm judging by the depth of the rail which is the only give-away, code 83? If so I think Peco's decision to use the code "55" rail is a very good move. It would be interesting to see them alongside each other.

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It is indeed Tillig track. When I started my layout there were just a couple of possibilities for TT track - either Pilz (later to become Tillig) or the pressed steel hollow rails and horrendous turnouts of BTTB or a now vanished Hungarian manufacturer. The choice was simple! If I were starting again I would certainly consider Kuehn or Peco for reasons of realism - but Tillig track is robust, with a huge range of flexible and set track and turnouts. But as you can see from the attached photos, my layout has reached a stage where large-scale track renewals would be unbearable!

Panorama 01.22 a.jpg

Panorama 01.22 b.jpg

Panorama 01.22 c.jpg

Edited by rekoboy
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On 06/08/2022 at 11:37, Samedan said:

And there’s nothing more enlightening than a bunch of armchair entrepreneurs and economists, myself included, speculating on the direction of a new business venture. 

 

We are not just armchair warriors: we can get stuff done.

 

I spoke with a chap who does resin railway building and got him to rescale one of his models to TT120.

A second manufacture is in the processing of downscaling some etched rolling stock to TT120

I've spoken to third manufacturer and they are looking into rescaling a diesel model for me.

 

We can make a difference and change how things develop.

 

Luke

 

+++++++++++++++

 

As delivered

3-1.jpg.48115acd3784cf647a1f0bf7b892c3a2.jpg

 

Work in progress

10-1.jpg.c73841d34bc3ce5a13fa424042a6d4f5.jpg

 

 

 

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Got some track.  The Roco Ludmilla is built like a Swiss watch, not surprising, but worth mentioning.  Performance and control is excellent.

 

1202233543_2(4).jpeg.420ebd098b3ddda9205004985e526b39.jpeg

 

Track and the Actros are from Osborn's, who are also doing laser cut UK-outline structures in 1:120.

 

https://www.osbornsmodels.com/tt-scale-1120-438-c.asp

 

1005361699_1(9).jpeg.101ea1bbfcfaec9aad70b40f0bf44346.jpeg

 

Can't infer too much about 'presence' of UK TT:120 stock from this.  The Ludmilla is huge in real life.  A 31 is going to have less bulk.

 

For me, there is a compromise in the size.  As above, I think UK stock won't have so much presence as the German stock - more on this another time. Also, having repaired one of the wagon couplings, I'm really at the eyesight limit for these - I'm in my 40s with generally very good vision, I'd want a magnifier loupe to be doing fiddly serious repairs - I can do OO/HO with the naked eye. 🧐

 

The upside of this compromise is the potential to make use of limited space.  

 

The trainset boards in the photos are 1200 mm x 2000 mm.

 

I've bent a test curve on the flextrack.  The long container flats will traverse this radius with a bit of drag.  The wheel treads are wide and I don't think this is the minimum radius they'd run on, but it's close.  The engine seems quite happy on it.

 

377020612_1(11).jpeg.81d9bf05a20cd215baf2086ce4d3925d.jpeg

 

Would be able to cram plausible sidings into corners of the board also.

 

1637014828_1(10).jpeg.de48a9e0e93f2eb45ce68ba393d1c6aa.jpeg

Edited by andythenorth
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5 hours ago, andythenorth said:

I think UK stock won't have so much presence as the German stock - more on this another time.

 

I look at this from a different angle, for me the use of 1:120 has always been about making a "railway within the landscape" rather than cramming a lot of track in, whilst keeping the stock and buildings "easily built". That's why N, for me, never worked, it's just too small, especially when you model narrow gauge where the stock is even smaller. 1:120 worked very well on the three layouts I built in TTe and "A Taste of Alber", probably my favourite, shows what can be done in 6x2...

 

bHkS0lm.jpg

 

Or this (what you can see is only 8ft long!):

 

7bVwj9q.jpg

Edited by Hobby
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Tarrant Valley 009

The short 66 has a TT scale body running on 009 so that gives an idea of size. 
This is my 6x6ft 009 basic modular layout sitting in the corner at home so TT could fit exactly the same footprint. 

Freemoo9

 

Expanded you get something like this and no boards over 18” wide. 

Freem009 at Wimborne 2019


Jumping to the slightly larger HOm it’s still possible to fit in the 6x6ft footprint. 

HOm HSB modules

Euro TT wagons used as container chassis in HOm 

Süd Harz & Warley 2019

 

And again it can be expanded to something akin to this, stations are 18” deep, intermediate boards 9” deep

Süd Harz HOm full layout

 

So I think there’s a lot of potential from modelling ng similar sized trains. Easy to handle and store, run well and plenty of room to fit it in. 
I can’t say a 31 lights up my wallet but I’d certainly consider something if 37’s or 33’s followed. One I’ll be watching with interest. 

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  • 2 months later...


We might see a new category of layout design in TT:120.

 

Imagine a rectangular roundy-roundy with a central operating well. Now pinch the baseboard into a dumbbell shape, compressing the well out of existence. Now put a right angle in it, then another, in the same direction so that you end up with a U shape, but make one of the upright sides of the letter U longer than the other. I'm sure this is not an original idea, though it would require a lot of room in OO, determined by your chosen minimum radius. What you end up with is a layout with ease of access and an operating area with everything within easy reach. The same principle could be applied to a terminus fiddle yard set-up.

 

A few people have commented that N is just too small for them to work to the level of detail they would be happy with. I suspect that many of them are the same people who don't want to perform the kind of contortions required to clamber under a duck-under. Hinged, or lift-out sections are great, if you have the carpentry skills required to construct one.

 

TT:120 has the potential to allow modellers to create moderate size roundy-roundy layouts where ease of access in the primary concern.

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Struck me the other day that one potential use for TT, which I think was followed last time round, is to build a ‘system’ layout, multiple stations forming a route or journey. This would clearly be a room, loft, or garage project, so not quite the use that Hornby seem to envisage, but it would play to the ‘you can get more in than with 00’ and ‘it might be just about big enough to allow shunting’ strengths of it.

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