Royal Mail Zero Carbon - more trains?

[lanchester]

Some twenty years ago when I did casual sorting/delivery shifts for Royal Mail, delivery was by bike, but a van went out with bags of sorted mail (and packets/small parcels) and deposited these in conveniently placed lockers. Postie would cycle out to the first locker on his/her round, pick up a bag and deliver, finishing at or close to the next locker. Drop off the empty bag, pick up the next full one, and continue. Repeat three or four times. That seemed fairly sensible.

 

The major problem was the quite appalling state of maintenance of the bicycles - but try getting hold of 'elf and safety at 6am on a wet February morning (for some reason, our office only seemed to need casuals when the weather was filthy - I wonder why?).

 

There is a lot of work being done in the EU on urban logistics for domestic and business parcel/freight delivery (some of which involved the UK before we got kicked out of the Horizon programme). Much of this research, it has to be said, is reinventing the wheel at, in my view, excessive cost, but since I occasionally get paid for writing English language summaries of the work, I'm not complaining too much. The typical approach they come up with is to have 'cross-docking' facilities at the edge of town, on the ring road if they've got one, receiving goods at HGV scale. Perhaps four of five of these, each serving a small network of 'urban hubs' via electric vans or similar. From these, final delivery would be by cargo bike or similar (electric or pedal power), or by foot. One Spanish city I know, the proposal is that no-one would be more than 5 minutes on foot (or 400m) from an urban hub.

 

This sounds great for getting rid of pollution, noise, and large vehicles from congested city centres, but it tends to lock the 'trunk' element even more firmly into road transport (ring road locations can rarely be sited to make rail-road transfer feasible). There is also Nimby style resistance to the siting of urban hubs, and as in the UK, often the obvious locations, the old Post Office local sorting offices, have been closed and sold off in favour of larger out of town offices. (It isn't just us that makes these short-sighted decisions).

 

Nonetheless, the approach could work quite well for smaller, self contained, cities - somewhere like York, perhaps. But for larger conurbations, while you might get HGVs out of the centre, you might actually be creating even more mileage as HGVs circle the ring road to drop off at several cross-docks on the other side of the city from the direction the goods are coming from. Also, such schemes are only really viable if pretty well everyone is forced to use them. That means putting your last mile delivery, and thus a large element of your competitive advantage/customer satisfaction, into the hands of a third party - probably the municipal authority or their preferred contractor - so someone like, say Yodel, to pick a firm at random, might have an effective monopoly on everything delivered across the whole of, again at random, Leicester. There is certainly scope for this to be 'sub-optimal' in terms of customer service - remember when Royal Mail had an effective monopoly?

[black and decker boy]

On 23/06/2022 at 17:25, Trainshed Terry said:

The first thing that RM should do is put the delivery officers back on to bicycles to do away with the many delivery diesel/petrol vans that do less than 2 miles in a day.  Reinstate sorting of mail on trains.

 

Terry  

How much manual sorting of letters actually happens in the U.K. now? Isn’t most of it done by machine?

 

The new mega-shed RM distribution hub at Crick (DIRFT) has its own dedicated rail terminal. From that flyer, it has solar on the roof and DIRFT in general has its own wind turbines too.

[John M Upton]

Well, the Royal Mail must use some sort of energy saving transport device, I once had a parcel that crossed the entire width of the US in a matter of hours, was in Heathrow within a day and a half of posting then spent four WEEKS travelling from Heathrow to Mount Pleasant.  I know the traffic in London is bad but really....

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

How much manual sorting of letters actually happens in the U.K. now? Isn’t most of it done by machine? ....

Not sure it's an Artificial Intelligence machine or Artificial Stupidity, but I had something go astray to Heathfield in Sussex when it was addresses to me in Heathfield Road - with the correct postcode.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

 

 

The new mega-shed RM distribution hub at Crick (DIRFT) has its own dedicated rail terminal. From that flyer, it has solar on the roof and DIRFT in general has its own wind turbines too.

It's huge. The latest expansion of DIRFT dwarfs the original bit (the green at the bottom):

Edited June 24, 2022 by melmerby

[black and decker boy]

30 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's huge. The latest expansion of DIRFT dwarfs the original bit (the green at the bottom):

I drove around the new terminal a couple of weeks ago. Not one to walk round, the site team have golf buggies 

[KeithMacdonald]

It looks like both Tesco and Sainsbury are already using the rail link

 

Tesco

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3504297,-1.1762282,317m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Sainsbury

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3574486,-1.174631,317m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

The Royal Mail rail link is further in, and this image has the track being laid

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3725728,-1.1687426,126m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

The Royal Mail rail link is further in, and this image has the track being laid

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3725728,-1.1687426,126m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

The tracks now all laid to the RM depot (behind the NHS hub),

[black and decker boy]

This is the RM rail terminal 

 

 

there is a public footpath on a bridge over the throat of the new railport yard & RM sidings. It’s on the map just north of Hub at DIRFT and I think crosses the M1 too. Might give decent photos once the yard goes live

[icn]

22 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

What is a real waste of energy/overuse of fossil fuel is that the round which does our round normally involves a van journey of something over half amile from, and back to , the local RM office.  But interestingly when there was someone who didn't have a Driving Licence covering our round she did it on foot with a small trolley.  I realise that using the van allows delivery of small parcels (many of which seem to come from a well known Cornish purveyor of model railways) so is a bit more productive and it takes less time than walking but it does create needless pollution when you see that somebody can do exactly the same job on foot.

 

Most of my small parcels come by electric trike - does need a licence, but only the moped licence (which is easy to get) I believe:

In fact they're sufficiently happy with this system that they're making it even bigger:

 

(There's still a van for the bigger parcels, but the more parcels go by trike the fewer vans they need.)

 

 

Now on to that nonsense about truly renewable electrons: even if it were possible, you wouldn't want it - there's no point in sending electrons (or rather the energy, because the electrons themselves don't move all that far) a longer distance to the precise customer that paid for it - you're simply increasing wastage (and thus energy costs) that way. As long as you've put the right amount into the network at the right time you're effectively getting renewable energy out - easy peasy.

[MyRule1]

I'm have reached the age where some of my friends have these aren't they called mobility scooters.

[Hroth]

On 23/06/2022 at 19:45, Ron Ron Ron said:

They have been placing orders for hundreds of electric vans to replace ICE powered vehicles for local deliveries/ collections.

They have a long way to go to roll this out across the whole country though.

 

RM are looking at more EV’s in a range of sizes.

 

 

 

 

Then there'll be a fleet of mail vans with huge dents in the nearside rear doors?

 

[melmerby]

15 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

 

there is a public footpath on a bridge over the throat of the new railport yard & RM sidings. It’s on the map just north of Hub at DIRFT and I think crosses the M1 too. Might give decent photos once the yard goes live

I think that might be the track (Shenley Drive) that crosses in front of the Car Park of the NHS building in the picture I posted.

https://goo.gl/maps/xZyzwudg4u3ZrvV47

 

Unfortunately the development of this site is moving quite quickly and Google maps can't keep up with it. The aerial view is from 16th  June 2021.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, icn said:

 

Most of my small parcels come by electric trike - does need a licence, but only the moped licence (which is easy to get) I believe:

In fact they're sufficiently happy with this system that they're making it even bigger:

 

(There's still a van for the bigger parcels, but the more parcels go by trike the fewer vans they need.)

 

 

Now on to that nonsense about truly renewable electrons: even if it were possible, you wouldn't want it - there's no point in sending electrons (or rather the energy, because the electrons themselves don't move all that far) a longer distance to the precise customer that paid for it - you're simply increasing wastage (and thus energy costs) that way. As long as you've put the right amount into the network at the right time you're effectively getting renewable energy out - easy peasy.

 

You need a full licence for any vehicle that is used for deliveries for insurance reasons.

 

That includes all those Just Eat, Uber, etc. who are illegally delivering your pizzas on mopeds with L Plates on them.

 

 

 

Jason

[MyRule1]

 Not DRIFTing OT too much found some more details online

 

https://www.railpro.co.uk/news/new-parcel-hub-for-royal-mail-is-sign-of-growing-demand-for-rail-freight-services-says-prologis-uk

 

 

https://www.railfreight.com/railfreight/2022/05/12/uk-royal-mail-to-double-its-cross-border-rail-services/?gdpr=accept

 

Interesting that the mock up picture shows containers do Royal Mail have containter handling facilities elsewhere?

[Michael Hodgson]

As I undertood it at the time, Royal Mail dropped the TPOs and dedicated class 325 units etc in favour of aircraft and juggernauts because of perceived unreliability of the service, failure to meet deadlines etc.  Rail should have a natural advantage in terms of cost, energy efficiency, and "green issues" particularly over medium to long distance routes, with aircraft being justified only where speed is essential over the longest journeys.

 

I suppose the question arises of whether the current seriea of railway workers strikes will endanger the return of mail to rail in the longer term, and whether they will plan on reatin the ability to use lorries as backup in the event of future disruption.

 

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

You need a full licence for any vehicle that is used for deliveries for insurance reasons.

 

That includes all those Just Eat, Uber, etc. who are illegally delivering your pizzas on mopeds with L Plates on them.

 

 

 

Jason

Except that is not the UK.

Regulations might be different.

[DY444]

57 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As I undertood it at the time, Royal Mail dropped the TPOs and dedicated class 325 units etc in favour of aircraft and juggernauts because of perceived unreliability of the service, failure to meet deadlines etc.  Rail should have a natural advantage in terms of cost, energy efficiency, and "green issues" particularly over medium to long distance routes, with aircraft being justified only where speed is essential over the longest journeys.

 

I suppose the question arises of whether the current seriea of railway workers strikes will endanger the return of mail to rail in the longer term, and whether they will plan on reatin the ability to use lorries as backup in the event of future disruption.

 

It's getting towards 20 years since the Royal Mail pulled out of rail and the world has moved on and the role of traditional post has too.  Whilst the service offer remains as it was, the importance of speed has fallen imo.  Anyone entering into a contract for moving more mail by rail will no doubt want clauses to protect themselves against delays and the Royal Mail will probably have to suck that up.  I'm actually struggling to see how this can be anything much more than a beefing up of the existing Willesden/Warrington/Shieldmuir/Low Fell operation given the inability of most principal stations to handle mail now.  Either way I doubt we'll see mail trains criss crossing the country like we did before.

 

As for the strikes, if they do put Royal Mail off then they probably weren't serious about it anyway.  This will be a long term strategic decision if it happens and won't be influenced by the prospect of periodic squabbles with the rail unions.

[Jonboy]

18 minutes ago, DY444 said:

As for the strikes, if they do put Royal Mail off then they probably weren't serious about it anyway.  This will be a long term strategic decision if it happens and won't be influenced by the prospect of periodic squabbles with the rail unions.

There would be irony there…my workplace reformed procedures and reduced our use of (letter) post by circa 90% due to Royal Mail strikes…

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

.... I suppose the question arises of whether the current series of railway workers strikes will endanger the return of mail to rail in the longer term, and whether they will plan on retain the ability to use lorries as backup in the event of future disruption. 

Didn't we have a shortage of truck drivers a couple of weeks ago - has that resolved itself without reaching the headlines ? ....... oh, and the air industry seems to have its fair share of problems at present, too.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

As I undertood it at the time, Royal Mail dropped the TPOs and dedicated class 325 units etc in favour of aircraft and juggernauts because of perceived unreliability of the service, failure to meet deadlines etc.  Rail should have a natural advantage in terms of cost, energy efficiency, and "green issues" particularly over medium to long distance routes, with aircraft being justified only where speed is essential over the longest journeys.

 

I suppose the question arises of whether the current seriea of railway workers strikes will endanger the return of mail to rail in the longer term, and whether they will plan on reatin the ability to use lorries as backup in the event of future disruption.

 

 

I think that most of what the Post Office/Royal Mail wheeled out as reasons for moving away from rail were whatever they could think up on the spur of the moment to justify what had been their developing policy for many years.   They were moving to road trunking in the 1970s because that was what they wanted to do and it did have the advantage of reducing handling which was inevitable if sorting offices were not immediately linked to railway stations.  but overall even back then they were becoming an increasingly road-minded organisation.  Plus they undoubtedly saw road as being completely under their control and more flexible than rail.

 

Their only real grouse with the railway was delays to night services and that was very much the railway's fault as it became increasingly passenger minded and forgot that carrying out squadron tamping etc when passenger trains weren't running was going to delay something else.  

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Plus they undoubtedly saw road as being completely under their control and more flexible than rail.

 

Yes, that's really the point about relying on railways.  Their service is disrupted all the time that the trains are on strike and it's up to railway management and the unions to resolve that.  Their service is just as disrupted if their own lorrry drivers walk out - but they have the ability to decide whether they are prepared to meet thbeir own employees pay claim or face it down if they consider it excessive at the cost of a potentially protracted dispute, rather than being at the mercy of another company's mangement.  The same is true of course for any other business-critical function that a firm does not or cannot manage in-house.

[Hesperus]

The biggest waste of energy in parcel delivery is all the competing companies.  It's probably not as noticeable in towns as they are dropping off a lot of packages close together but at my little hamlet of a couple of dozen houses, a mile or so from the main road you can see the silliness of 8 different vans driving up here most days to drop off one or two packages each.  I try to minimise this by getting most things sent to my workplace (also because I'm usually out).

 

I'm not convinced that HGVs will work well on battery power so I can see a lot of freight heading back to the railways if investment is available and staff willing to work in different ways.

 

  To pick up on the out of town hubs that @lanchester mentioned above.  If a city has a ring road it's fairly likely to pass the railway line at some point so could theoretically be rail served.  I wonder about trains of small containers that could slide off onto electric vans for local delivery.  Whatever it is would ideally be able to be unloaded safely under 25KV as that will need to be on most of the network if we can't have diesel.

 

 

Sorry to leave an extra tag, I can't find a way of deleting it.  Or writing anything after it.

@lanchester

[RJS1977]

On 25/06/2022 at 15:47, Michael Hodgson said:

As I undertood it at the time, Royal Mail dropped the TPOs and dedicated class 325 units etc in favour of aircraft and juggernauts because of perceived unreliability of the service, failure to meet deadlines etc.  Rail should have a natural advantage in terms of cost, energy efficiency, and "green issues" particularly over medium to long distance routes, with aircraft being justified only where speed is essential over the longest journeys.

 

I suppose the question arises of whether the current seriea of railway workers strikes will endanger the return of mail to rail in the longer term, and whether they will plan on reatin the ability to use lorries as backup in the event of future disruption.

 

 

 

A friend of mine was one of the senior Royal Mail managers who made the decision to stop using rail. He told me the two principal reasons they stopped were:

1)  A desire to eliminate manual sorting. Automatic sorting machines were too large to fit in railway carriages which meant the mail had to be sorted before loading on to the trains. As the principal advantage of rail over road was that mail could be sorted on the move, this advantage was eliminated.

2) Moving mail by road meant that RM was no longer tied to valuable sites near railway stations. Switching to road enabled these sites to be sold for redevelopment and new out-of town distribution centres served by road set up on cheaper sites instead.

[Wickham Green too]

10 hours ago, Hesperus said:

..... the silliness of 8 different vans driving up here most days to drop off one or two packages each.  ......

Often as not the same van returning to comply with a different resident's preferred time slot ( not unique to mail/parcels, of course - grocery deliveries are probably worse ).