Brake Vans

[KLee55]

Was a brake van required on a train hauled by a single cab loco e.g. a class 08 or class 20 on a trip working ( during 70s and 80s)?

 

Many thanks

 

 

[101]

1 hour ago, KLee55 said:

Was a brake van required on a train hauled by a single cab loco e.g. a class 08 or class 20 on a trip working ( during 70s and 80s)?

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

If the wagons are all fitted there is no reason why you couldn't run without a brake van although technically at that time a guard shouldn't have  been up with driver.

However there were lots of variables with trip working, like how far it was going, also whether the yard in question was easier to shunt without a van - remember trip working was local and the crew would all be very familiar with yards and what was quickest - but in the 70s/80s there were still a lot of old drivers around who didn't like guards anywhere near them! plus of course you still had secondmen at that time crowding the cab.

Personally I wouldn't have minded having the guard up in the cab - especially if it meant making the job easier and quicker, traincrew were always up for an early finish!

Remember things were a lot more 'relaxed' then than now and things were done then that wouldn't be now, so if you wish you can quite happily run a trip without a van.

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, 101 said:

If the wagons are all fitted there is no reason why you couldn't run without a brake van ...

.... stressing the "If the wagons are all fitted" bit, of course ......... unfitted working were getting thin on the ground but they'd normally have had a van - though, no doubt, there were local exceptions.

[Siberian Snooper]

When I was an apprentice in the '70s and we were in the classroom, I'd sometimes the dockyard trip hauled by an 08 with a few vans, but blowed if I can remember if there was a brake on the end. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... stressing the "If the wagons are all fitted" bit, of course ......... unfitted working were getting thin on the ground but they'd normally have had a van - though, no doubt, there were local exceptions.

There were indeed exceptions and there were - long before the end of  brake vans on fitted trains places where unfitted trains were permitted to run on running lines without a brakevan and some of these lasted at least into the 1970s.

[8K77]

There was an instruction in the 70s and 80s that meant if a train was being hauled with a single cab locomotive e.g. 08/20 that even if the train was fitted that it had to run with a piped brake van. 

1 for the guard to be able to apply the emergency brake and the other was for comfort (Not that brake vans can be that comfortable) But with a driver and second man there was no place for the guard to sit. 

Also when running light the loco was to also run with a piped van. Remember despite the 1968 agreement of guards travelling in the rear cab of locomotives of  air braked freight trains it was still the guards responsibility to keep an eye on the train and observe it through the journey. 

 

Thanks, 

K77

[KLee55]

Many thanks for your replies. Can anyone assist regarding use of a brake van with TOPS code CAO (unfitted)?

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, KLee55 said:

Many thanks for your replies. Can anyone assist regarding use of a brake van with TOPS code CAO (unfitted)?

At the rear of an unfitted/ partially-fitted train?

[KLee55]

Apologies, I'm not familiar with operational requirements/practices regarding use of different types of brake van.  Following K77's reply relating to use of "piped vans", I was trying to establish the circumstances in which different types of van would be used (TOPS codes CAO,CAP, CAR). I would be grateful for any assistance anyone can provide.

[w124bob]

The CAO classification means the van has no pipe for connection to the rest of the train(air or vac) therefore if used in this situation on a fully fitted class 08 or 20 hauled train the van would be the last vehicle. However every effort would be made to use a piped van CAP for a vac train CAR for vac or air, it would be rare but not unknown for a CAR to be wasted on vac train. The van can be marshelled anywhere with in the train. Some trains required a van on the rear for propelling moves regardless of loco type. It should also be noted that a SHARK is a ballast plough not a brakevan. The other use for brakevans on fully fitted trains was where traincrew worked gates occured, the Denby branch comes to mind. To save a lot of running around, two airpiped vans were used when available on MGR trains, seen behind a class 56 this looks quite strange. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by w124bob

[BR traction instructor]

Single cab locos working in multiple on fully fitted freight trains that required a guard (think routes not cleared for D.O.O. at the time) also had to have a brakevan (fitted with an emergency brake valve) in the consist (the guard also had to ride in it). The reason was due to the guard not being trained on loco braking systems and therefore unauthorised to unpin the auto brake in the rear loco cab to apply the brake in an emergency. The best example/partial solution to the brakevan requirement was the  introduction of 20/3s at Buxton in the mid eighties (semi permanently coupled with an additional small bore air pipe) with an emergency brake valve added to the cabside inner for the use of the guard in an emergency.

 

BeRTIe

Edited July 7, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Rivercider]

4 hours ago, KLee55 said:

Apologies, I'm not familiar with operational requirements/practices regarding use of different types of brake van.  Following K77's reply relating to use of "piped vans", I was trying to establish the circumstances in which different types of van would be used (TOPS codes CAO,CAP, CAR). I would be grateful for any assistance anyone can provide.

It might help if you could narrow down the area and time frame of your query. In 1970 there was a huge number of unfitted wagons in service, so generally a brake van would be required as during the course of a loco trip duty at least one move would include unfitted vehicles, so a brake van would probably be taken along throughout the turn of duty. In these circumstances an unfitted CAO would be perfectly adequate (TOPS designations were introduced from 1973). By the mid 1980s unfitted wagons would be rare (or banned) in many parts of the BR network, though a brake van might still be required if a class 08 or class 20 was working the train, vacuum piped CAPs or dual piped CARs were then used,  ( local exceptions, to allow local moves without a brake van still apply as previously mentioned).

 

cheers

    

[Hal Nail]

On 05/07/2022 at 08:33, KLee55 said:

Was a brake van required on a train hauled by a single cab loco e.g. a class 08 or class 20 on a trip working ( during 70s and 80s)?

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

covered here recently:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/172284-br-air-piped-brake-vans-tops-era/#comment-4840828

 

[BR traction instructor]

Here is the 1971 D notice instruction to traincrew regarding the OP. Note that no specific brakevan type is specified but clearly has to be at least ‘piped only’ (as per the Working Manual instruction beneath) to be part of a fully fitted freight or parcels consist.

 

BeRTIe

Edited July 8, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[BR traction instructor]

[Trog]

That suggests that if you had a fully fitted train as described hauled by an 08 you do not have to have a brake van. Presumably a humane driver keeping the speed down to a level that the guard can successfully run behind the train.

[Ken.W]

5 hours ago, Trog said:

That suggests that if you had a fully fitted train as described hauled by an 08 you do not have to have a brake van. Presumably a humane driver keeping the speed down to a level that the guard can successfully run behind the train.

 

That's just the instructions regarding marshaling of freight trains, the Pink Pages referenced are instructions for conveying dangerous goods, certain classes of which required a brake van at the rear. The proviso "or for other reasons" covers the separate instruction regarding single cab locos.

[BR traction instructor]

9 hours ago, Trog said:

That suggests that if you had a fully fitted train as described hauled by an 08 you do not have to have a brake van. Presumably a humane driver keeping the speed down to a level that the guard can successfully run behind the train.

 

The use of a shunting loco on a fully fitted main line working would be an isolated occurrence but covered by the initial consideration i.e. is this a single cab loco?

 

BeRTIe

[hmrspaul]

7 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

 

The use of a shunting loco on a fully fitted main line working would be an isolated occurrence but covered by the initial consideration i.e. is this a single cab loco?

 

BeRTIe

Aren't they still a regular site on the South Wales mainline? A friend sent a photo taken at Newport a few weeks ago of an O8 powering a steel freight. 

 

Paul

[w124bob]

Turning this on it's head I know of two locations were a loose couple train could run without a brakevan. Ellistown NCB exchange sidings to Mantle lane(Coalville). Distance is about half a mile on a falling gradient, sectional app instructions allowed a class 9 train to run with out a brakevan. So thats 30 plus unfitted minerals behind a pair of class 20's over a level crossing and into mantle lane sidings. On Flickr there are several pictures of similar class 9 trains entering Healey Mills yard from the Wakefield direction without brakevans.

[BR traction instructor]

Each Sectional Appendix contains a list of locations/situations where unfitted/partially fitted consists could run with no brakevan in rear. There were instances covered by the BR Rule Book where this could happen too e.g. a divided train that couldn’t be recoupled.

 

BeRTIe

[KLee55]

Many thanks for your replies.

[BR traction instructor]

To the uninformed this particular subject area can appear contradictory at times and confusing at best. Addressing specific situations and backing up examples with period BR documents is probably the best way to go about understanding the subject.

 

BeRTIe

Edited July 13, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[keefer]

From the 1977 ScR Sectional Appendix: