Should we whitewash history on our layouts?

[JZ]

As it says on the can. I am modelling US narrow gauge around mid 1950s to 1960.

Anyone see where this is going?.

Let's start with the small things. Cigarette advertising. At this time, doctors, dentist and sports stars were advocating the benefits of smoking certain brands of cigarettes. I am a non-smoker, well for the last 23 years, and I hate it, smoking that is. But I still have cigarette advertisements on the layout. I follow motor racing and really dislike it when historic cars have the brand names removed. That's how it was at the time. can you say "I'm a non-smoker so won't have any tobacco advertising on my 170's, or earlier, layout?" That wasn't how it was. same with alcohol advertising. There was much more back then.

So, let's get a bit deeper and back to what I model. In this period, racism was still rife in the US, some say it still is. My visits to the Midwest in recent years has shown that is still very 'white'. The treatment of a British coloured and some Japanese tourists at Houston airport immigration showed me that racism still persists. Anyway, back to my layout. I have recently purchased a single storey company house kit. That will be for a coloured family, whereas the two storey ones will be allocated to white families.

 

So do we, should we, whitewash history on our layouts. Even if it's something we vehemently disagree with?

[Iskra]

I think it's important to tell the truth rather than present a glamorised glossed-over version of the past. There's nothing wrong with modelling outdated practices, as it's a way of teaching viewers about the past, raising awareness and also being thankful for the fact we've moved beyond those times.  

[Allegheny1600]

I’d say it depends!

If modelling for oneself - one can include or exclude whatever one wishes.

If modelling for exhibition (display) purposes, including showing online - one probably ought to be very careful.

We had a similar discussion before where the Great Train robbery scene was mentioned. Does the injury inflicted on the train crew show “reality” or is it “too graphic”?
I also model the railways of the USA but my main interest is the Mid West in the 1980-1990 period so that is apparently somewhat less overtly racist than the 1950s but it certainly hadn’t disappeared.

Another of my interests is the railways of Germany, thankfully before (c.1910) and well after (c. 1975 & c.2020) the times of major troubles. I choose to ignore the period between 1933 and 1945 especially, as I despise what happened during those years. Others appear to like that time period and who am I to say they shouldn’t?

 

As for product advertising, well - I’m also an ex-smoker but I see no harm in including tobacco advertising because it is a historic thing and actually inaccurate not to include it. Tobacco advertising was everywhere when I was younger, heck I remember Philip Morris having a complete train they used even during the 1990s.

[sir douglas]

would you not have any cars on the layout just because you dont drive?

 

Though he more sensitive subjects need to be done carefully, there have been examples over the years of 1 or 2 people crossing the line of what many people feel appropiate such as wanting to do a diorama of the Harrow Wealdstone crash or the entrance sidings of Auschwitz.

 

 

[newbryford]

In a similar vein, am I "glamorising" a deplorable subject by doing this to my stock?

 

 

 

[RexAshton]

If we forget/ hide our history we are destined to repeat the mistakes were made but it's prudent to be careful not to over glamourise it.

Edited August 14, 2022 by RexAshton
Typo

[phil_sutters]

When exhibiting one has to decide what you want to portray and if it has an element of negative history to it, then the presentation needs to have good information on display and via person to person interaction. One only has to look into the wargaming hobby to see how the historical elements are usually portrayed intelligently, although there always seem to be a number of WW2 scenarios which veer towards the glorification of the Third Reich. War itself is a gruesome subject for a hobby, but it is a very real part of most nations' histories and researching and reenacting the battles can help develop ones knowledge of the way our societies are formed and interact.

In the privacy of your own home the choice must be down to you. 

This is one loco my Reverend Father would not have had on his layout, had he been modelling the later part of the last century. He regarded Charles I as a martyr, so Cromwell was a criminal in his eyes.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by phil_sutters

[F-UnitMad]

Very much an "it depends" matter. Adverts can be very evocative of an Era and 'set the scene' almost on their own, as they come & go quite quickly.

Other things are more clearly 'off limits' - no one modelling the southern USA would be crass enough to model burning crosses and lynched negroes dangling from trees - I hope!! Quite how racism in the Mid-West (my area of interest although I've never been there) would be depicted on a model layout anyway, I don't know? Just as there is racism in the UK, albeit maybe more subtle? I can't see that it would be represented in any 'usual' way on a layout - unless it's crass & blatant, like a bunch of coppers arresting a black man, or an NF march? In which case I hope such a layout would be unlikely to be invited to an Exhibition, or get publicity in a magazine.

[br2975]

Oh dear, my onetime intention to model the (then) modern image in Northern Ireland / The north of Ireland / Ulster (other names are available) may also provoke some PC tutting.

[Morello Cherry]

It is your layout.

 

A good example of sensitively handling a shameful period of history have a look at how the Miniatur Wunderland have handled it.

 

https://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/discover-wunderland/special-exhibits/history-civilization/1933-1942/

 

I do have issues when for example I see people slavishly trying to recreate O Winston Link photos ignoring that most were taken during segregation in the South without acknowledging that. Whereas, Miniatur Wunderland is modelling and confronting the horrors of that period.

 

Personally, I wouldn't for example reproduce adverts that involved racist depictions of people of colour. There are plenty of other adverts to choose from.

 

@F-UnitMad - segregated stations, benches etc if dealing with the pre-1970s. Now, I can give an example recently I lived in the midwest. The railroad ran through the town, most of the time I went through I was fascinated by a gun shop announcing that it sold machine guns and silencers. One day I was on the other side of the bus and I noticed that there was a mural on the other side of the street. Then I noticed that there was an image of a figure hanging from a tree. When I asked local friends about it, the response I got was 'Oh (towns name), that's a big Klan town'. I certainly wouldn't be modelling there no matter how interesting the railroading might be.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Morello Cherry

[Il Grifone]

It's very touchy. Personally I would avoid anything controversial, even on my own (private) layout.

German  locomotive 1934-45 models for a long time (still?) had a blob on their tenders!

Edited August 14, 2022 by Il Grifone

[APOLLO]

Do as you wish.

It's your train set !!!

 

Brit15

[Clearwater]

1 hour ago, sir douglas said:

would you not have any cars on the layout just because you dont drive?

 

Though he more sensitive subjects need to be done carefully, there have been examples over the years of 1 or 2 people crossing the line of what many people feel appropiate such as wanting to do a diorama of the Harrow Wealdstone crash or the entrance sidings of Auschwitz.

 

 

I’m fairly certain the `iWM had a diorama of the rail sidings at Auschwitz.  A good model as I recall.  Appropriate in the context there.  Would it be appropriate at a regular model show? Probably not.

[Wheatley]

I don't think any reasonable person, even non-smokers ,could reasonably object to historically correct tobacco advertising anymore than all but the extreme fringes of the temperance movement could object to "My Guinness, my goodness !" billboards. After all, they were everywhere.  But Robertson's jam's onetime motif  is likely to a) cause real offence and b) start a fight as to whether it ought to cause offence or not, so personally that particular one is probably best avoided. 

 

In 20 years time our block trains of coal and oil will probably raise a few eyebrows. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Wheatley

[brightspark]

14 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

It is your layout.

 

A good example of sensitively handling a shameful period of history have a look at how the Miniatur Wunderland have handled it.

 

Don't forget that Germany has severe restrictions on displaying that particular political symbol.

I find that German modellers tend to avoid that period of unhappiness and guilt so tend to model either pre 1905 or post 1950. 

 

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Just as there is racism in the UK, albeit maybe more subtle? I can't see that it would be represented in any 'usual' way on a layout

 

Given my inclination toward 1970s Black Country environs there was a lot of racist graffiti and NF symbolism around. Would I choose to reproduce it? Not a chance, I wouldn't wish to explain such hatred to a minor, modelling it would be no better than saying it.

[Jim Martin]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Other things are more clearly 'off limits' - no one modelling the southern USA would be crass enough to model burning crosses and lynched negroes dangling from trees - I hope!! Quite how racism in the Mid-West (my area of interest although I've never been there) would be depicted on a model layout anyway, I don't know?

 

I used to have an ambition (now largely abandoned) to build a layout based on the Frisco around 1960. There were divided coaches still in use then; and a fair bit of Jim Crow-driven signage around depots.

[Jim Martin]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

Given my inclination toward 1970s Black Country environs there was a lot of racist graffiti and NF symbolism around. Would I choose to reproduce it? Not a chance, I wouldn't wish to explain such hatred to a minor, modelling it would be no better than saying it.

 

I'm sure I've seen a 70s-set layout with NF graffiti in one of the magazines, possibly REx.

[wombatofludham]

7 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Given my inclination toward 1970s Black Country environs there was a lot of racist graffiti and NF symbolism around. Would I choose to reproduce it? Not a chance, I wouldn't wish to explain such hatred to a minor, modelling it would be no better than saying it.

Me too, in fact I've only limited graffiti on the layout aimed at Barbara Castle saving the branch trains.  I too remember the vile racist graffiti and anti-Irish daubings and I'd rather not have that on the layout, thanks.

However, the main reason I didn't have much graffiti on "Wednesford" is the way it dates better than radio carbon dating.  Racism and ban the bomb = 60s and 70s.  By the 80s you were more likely to see favourite bands and anti-Thatcher graffiti.  By the 90s early "tagging" was more likely but by 2000 spray can defacement was the norm (all dates are a moveable feast and we're talking generalities/commonalities).  So if I want a layout to represent 1968-1993, I have to ditch the graffiti purely to save my OCD from kicking in.

[Morello Cherry]

10 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Given my inclination toward 1970s Black Country environs there was a lot of racist graffiti and NF symbolism around. Would I choose to reproduce it? Not a chance, I wouldn't wish to explain such hatred to a minor, modelling it would be no better than saying it.

 

I think it depends on the purpose of the layout but I'd be cautious of not confronting that at all because I think there should be a warts and all reflection, but what you could do is flip it around. Yes, there was racism etc but there was also anti-racism, so if I wanted to model a place in say the 1970s, you don't necessary have to have an NF protest or NF graffiti, you can choose to have an anti-racist protest or anti-racist graffiti and to take that as the starting point. 'NF out' on a wall says more than enough and if a minor asked me about it then my starting point is that racism is wrong and this graffiti is telling people racism is wrong.

 

[wombatofludham]

With regard to advertising again the wide date range posed problems for me which I sidestepped by having semi-neutral advertising for local fictional shops and removeable advert hoarding with date appropriate train advertising to set the period. (By semi-neutral I refer to the typefaces used being something you might have seen across the dates whilst being a bit dated for the later eras, Wednesford being a bit behind the times like that).  In that way you can set a time and place whilst dodging the possible controversies.  There would have been a lot of local advertising for local firms as well as the more familiar national brands.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Morello Cherry said:

have an anti-racist protest or anti-racist graffiti

 

Trust me, there wasn't any there, then. Not until the 80s riots and anti-apartheid marches in London.

[Morello Cherry]

Fair enough, but it does depend where you were because I do remember it where I was.

 

But the broader point stands that if I was modelling political graffiti I would use anti-racist graffiti because then any conversations start from that.

 

It could be something as simple as recreating these - both easy enough to do and both make the point.

 

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/shelton-jubilee-street-stepney-london-p14378

 

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/shelton-anti-national-front-demonstrators-new-cross-road-lewisham-13-august-1977-p21034

 

 

[petethemole]

Rather than graffiti, much of the on-street visual campaign at that time was carried out by posters and stickers, including over-posting and tearing down the opposition's material.  The NF liked to put razor blades under their stickers.

[PaulRhB]

5 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

I do have issues when for example I see people slavishly trying to recreate O Winston Link photos ignoring that most were taken during segregation in the South without acknowledging that. Whereas, Miniatur Wunderland is modelling and confronting the horrors of that period.

So why would you include references to segregation on an O Winston Link diorama over any other period layout in that area? There was nothing featured in the photos that spoke against or for it, I don’t see why inserting a reference would be relevant to the scene?

I think we are associating things for our own message in that case and it actually detracts from the subject if it has to be referenced in everything just because it was in an area covered by the laws. Surely every traction layout of New Orleans or model of a Saturn V on its pad would need to reference it also on that basis? 
 

Minatur Wunderland has an education mission because it’s a public attraction but that doesn’t mean everyone displaying a model needs to include it. 
Winston Link was capturing the train with stylised backgrounds why does that need to carry a deeper message? Not all art or music has to carry a deeper meaning, some is just for fun. 
O Winston Link took the photos because of his passion for the train and the science of photography, surely talking about that is sufficient. If not where do we stop associating with things like the abject poverty many of all classes lived in in some of those areas? 
Sorry, I’m all for educating about the horrors of the past, and indeed present, but I don’t see how singling out a photographer who happened to operate in the region is a useful talking point to start from. A display about the Jim Crow cars would be far more relevant and deliver a focused message rather than trying to crowbar it into any display. It’s not everyone’s duty to include such subjects in their model but if they do include something that references it then it may be appropriate to explain why, that’s their choice though and different from deliberately displaying offensive material. 
If someone does display it without context then it may be appropriate to talk to the show organiser. If someone came up to me and said “I think you should remove the Winston Link diorama because it doesn’t reference the racism in that period” I would politely decline, but if someone pointed out that there was an offensive slogan without some context then I might see fit to challenge them and possibly ask it be removed from show.