Graham Farish announces changes to programme

[SNCF stephen]

drop the 222 in favour of th Blue Pullman ?, mmmmm

(a Lancs & Yorks DCC sound fitted pug with smoke would be nice)

 

mr B

 

I was thinking they might do that, although as AndyY stated there is more to making an N gauge version than just scaling it down, the research and development will have been done and there might be the demand for it. It is the kind of model that would suit N gauge very well in that it is a fixed formation.

[43179]

Sorry that does not make sence. I would have thought that the greater the differences the less chance it would of justifying the cost. I have no doubt that Fraish's sales of the 220 would have been affected, particularly the Virgin livery but I would have thought that producing the 222 would have enabled the development cost to be spread over more models.

 

It does not make sense to me either - a 9 car meridian painted red white blue and orange - does not look much like a 4 car voyager painted silver and red - does it??

I think the fatal flaw of the proposed 222 would have been in Farish producing the meridian as a four car unit - when the real things - unlike voyagers - are often seen up to 9 cars long (farish's own website photo shows a 5 car unit) Producing a full length set would have clearly distinguished it from a voyager. As Grahame said - I dont know who it is that thinks they look the same - that got me grinding my teeth - but these units - if you like 'em or not, are part of the railway today - and probably will be for a while to come. Its a shame not to be aknowledged properly

 

tfn

 

Jon

[TomE]

“we appreciate that some N scale modellers will be disappointed by today’s news but I am sure they will appreciate our honesty in this situation.

 

It would have been more appreciated 12 months ago! My layout was being constructed based on the class 222 being released so am I dissapointed, you bl**dy well bet I am.

 

I'm not sure I understand the logic of a company not producing a unit which, although not numerous, has operated on both Midland and East Coast main lines and carried 3 liveries in a relatively short space of time yet this same company is prepared to release a unit of limited interest already announced by another manufacturer.

 

I can only hope Dapol will come to the rescue and take advantage of this bizarre decision made by Bachmann. Failing that looks like I'll have to switch my 222 order to a Dapol HST.

 

Right, soap box stored, back to modelling!

 

Tom.

[Edwin_m]

I think the fatal flaw of the proposed 222 would have been in Farish producing the meridian as a four car unit - when the real things - unlike voyagers - are often seen up to 9 cars long (farish's own website photo shows a 5 car unit) Producing a full length set would have clearly distinguished it from a voyager. As Grahame said - I dont know who it is that thinks they look the same - that got me grinding my teeth - but these units - if you like 'em or not, are part of the railway today - and probably will be for a while to come. Its a shame not to be aknowledged properly

 

I guess the counter to that is that a lot of people wouldn't be able to fit a 9-car even in N, or to afford one. In their short life the MML/EMT units have run as 4-car, 5-car, 7-car and 9-car and the ex-Hull units now with EMT are still 4-car I think. So the best option would probably have been to sell all three liveries in 4-car plus extra coaches for MML and EMT liveries. The intermediate bodyshells are highly similar to each other, though not the same as the Voyager.

[beast66606]

I'm not sure I understand the logic of a company not producing a unit which, although not numerous, has operated on both Midland and East Coast main lines and carried 3 liveries in a relatively short space of time yet this same company is prepared to release a unit of limited interest already announced by another manufacturer.

 

And Transpennine to Liverpool.

 

Think about the model as a general purchaser, it's a modern diesel unit in a different colour, the Voyagers already exist in Virgin/XC so there is a choice, to add another model costs a lot of money and from their (GF) wording it looks like they are assuming the sales will not be enough to generate the revenue to cover the costs - yes there will be specific modellers who want the unit but the general modeller wouldn't buy enough to justify it.

[frobisher]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed in all this excitement that Bachmann have put pictures of the new MK1s in production liveries up now, plus a promised delivery date of August/September for them. Oh yes indeedy

[PaulCheffus]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed in all this excitement that Bachmann have put pictures of the new MK1s in production liveries up now, plus a promised delivery date of August/September for them. Oh yes indeedy

 

Hi

 

I wonder if that means they will be available at the International N Gauge Show at Leamington in September.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[TomE]

And Transpennine to Liverpool.

 

Think about the model as a general purchaser, it's a modern diesel unit in a different colour, the Voyagers already exist in Virgin/XC so there is a choice, to add another model costs a lot of money and from their (GF) wording it looks like they are assuming the sales will not be enough to generate the revenue to cover the costs - yes there will be specific modellers who want the unit but the general modeller wouldn't buy enough to justify it.

 

 

The key word there being assuming! It would be interesting to know just how many pre-orders the retailers had for the 222, but alas that is information which is probably never going to be made public.

 

I suppose some comfort can be taken by Bachmann saying they are on the back burner and not cancelled altogether, and I will leave my order in for 2 of them in the hope they appear at some point.

 

Tom.

[grahame]

yes there will be specific modellers who want the unit but the general modeller wouldn't buy enough to justify it.

 

I often wonder who these 'general' modellers are and if there are really that many of them as everyone who posts here, on other forums I frequent, are found down my club, or are simply friends I know, are very 'specific' about what they want and don't want. Possibly the 'general' purchasers are balanced by the 'collectors' who purchase one of everything produced regardless. And wouldn't a 'general' modeller purchase just a many of another new unit available in the shops by not knowing the difference or any better?

 

G.

[Zunnan]

I can't say I'm surprised about the 9F announcement given the Dapol model which has already been on the market for some time and the lengthy delay in any significant news, so I accept that it makes commercial sense to drop it and hopefully channel their efforts into something else (scaled down Super D please! B)). I would however say I am disappointed at the decision as I have never been completely satisfied with the Dapol 9F and was hoping that the Farish offering would be a more viable alternative; unless Dapol ever revisit the chassis and produce something made from metal that has a decent amount of grunt behind it. Looks like my Minnitrix models will have to eke out a few more years service.

[grahame]

David explained “the Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 is now, therefore, the only previously announced locomotive yet to appear. This model is not affected by today’s announcement and work is well underway to deliver this into the rangeâ€.

 

 

Presumably this quote is not fully accurate and the previously announced Class 14, Deltic, class 03, class 101 dmu and class 70s in N gauge haven't also been scrapped.

 

G.

[Andy Y]

Presumably this quote is not fully accurate and the previously announced Class 14, Deltic, class 03, class 101 dmu and class 70s in N gauge haven't also been scrapped.

 

G.

 

Absolutely correct Grahame, those are moving along towards seeing the light of day.

 

 

 

[frobisher]

Presumably this quote is not fully accurate and the previously announced Class 14, Deltic, class 03, class 101 dmu and class 70s in N gauge haven't also been scrapped.

 

I took that to mean the only loco not to have proceeded to tooling yet.

[Dave777]

I'm not sure I understand the logic of a company not producing a unit which, although not numerous, has operated on both Midland and East Coast main lines and carried 3 liveries in a relatively short space of time yet this same company is prepared to release a unit of limited interest already announced by another manufacturer.

 

Not really comparing apples with apples though is it Tom? Andy said the N gauge market was five times smaller for Bachmann, so talking about an OO Blue Pullman release (if that was indeed what you were referring to?) in comparison with a N gauge unit isn't like for like.

 

At the end of the day I come back to a statement I make many times on here - these people know far more about selling model trains than I do. If they think a 'limited interest' OO Blue Pullman makes better commercial sense than a N gauge unit I'm not really in a position to argue!

[grahame]

I took that to mean the only loco not to have proceeded to tooling yet.

 

The class 14 has passed tooling as finished samples have been displayed and the Deltic and class 03 presumably have not. It was just a very poor and inaccurate quote. Best to discount it.

 

G.

[grahame]

If they think a 'limited interest' OO Blue Pullman makes better commercial sense than a N gauge unit I'm not really in a position to argue!

 

Oooo, I dunno, you can argue but you might not be right But I do detect the slight 'limited' irony in the comment. B)

 

G.

[lucazone]

Hiya,

 

Yep the news isn't great, but like others have noted, at least this time they have ACTUALLY told people the position on these models rather than leaving us to constantly moan about them (101DMU). So the 222 isn't coming any time soon. So the reason they have given doesn't seem to add up compared to their approach with other models. The biggest thing I get from this announcement is either the bringing forward of other models in the schedule, or that they have space to add something new to the range.

 

Personally I really hope they take this opportunity to give some much needed umph to the current scheduled for release line up that was shockingly lacking compared to other scales, and other years.

 

Now, everyone say together - Class 350 Desiro please!

 

Adam

[Jim Martin]

wouldn't a 'general' modeller purchase just a many of another new unit available in the shops by not knowing the difference or any better?

 

Maybe so, but for that buyer a 222 would be in direct competition with Farish's own Voyager.

 

Surely, whatever we think is obvious about what needs to be made, or what will sell, the key comment is, as usual...

 

these people know far more about selling model trains than I do

 

Jim

[43179]

Maybe so, but for that buyer a 222 would be in direct competition with Farish's own Voyager.

Jim

 

I would have thought in that example the 222 would compliment the Voyager - rather than compete with it - and therefore all the more reason to buy both

 

 

tfn

 

Jon

[grahame]

Maybe so, but for that buyer a 222 would be in direct competition with Farish's own Voyager.

 

But probably in less competition than the Farish Voyager has with the Dapol Voyager.

 

G.

[Chris Higgs]

But probably in less competition than the Farish Voyager has with the Dapol Voyager.

 

G.

 

Not to mention, that really to be in competition with one another, they really should be available on the sehelves at the same time. Which given the relative rarity of any given product actually being in production at any one time, is quite small.

[Dr Al]

Regarding the Dapol 9F, I hadn't realised how few of them are available for sale. My uncle has 2 - Evening Star and one of the first releases. I'm not that happy with the running qualities, but the only alternative (Minitrix) has too many compromises. Searching for an Evening Star drew a blank - Dapol sold out last Friday and a quick look round various sources on the net wasn't any better. So re-run (and maybe a bit of re-engineering, as the tender from the Britannias will have a revised mechanism with a similar wheelbase) would be welcome.

 

A metal chassis block (as with new Brit and B1) and the better motor would do wonders for the Dapol 9F.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[TomE]

Not really comparing apples with apples though is it Tom? Andy said the N gauge market was five times smaller for Bachmann, so talking about an OO Blue Pullman release (if that was indeed what you were referring to?) in comparison with a N gauge unit isn't like for like.

 

At the end of the day I come back to a statement I make many times on here - these people know far more about selling model trains than I do. If they think a 'limited interest' OO Blue Pullman makes better commercial sense than a N gauge unit I'm not really in a position to argue!

 

Hi Dave.

 

No, it's not if you look at it from a direct scale to scale comparison. But, to my mind the 222 has a lot more going for it than the blue Pullman. More liveries, more widespread usage across the network and Bachmann could have still released all three liveries with just a four car unit. Not to mention they already have the basic mechanism in the 220. I think I'm also correct in saying that the 222 wouldn't require any more body moulding variations than the BP but stand to be corrected on that one.

 

The only thing it doesn't have which the BP does is a very vocal minority screaming at every opportunity for it's release. I have to wonder how many people who've voted for that in the polls or have said they would by one will actually follow through with a purchase for what is going to be a £300+ model.

 

But like you also say, Bachmann do this for a living and I don't so we have to trust they know what they are doing. I'm just really disappointed it's taken them 2 years to decided they aren't going to release it any time soon.

 

Tom.

[frobisher]

No, it's not if you look at it from a direct scale to scale comparison. But, to my mind the 222 has a lot more going for it than the blue Pullman. More liveries, more widespread usage across the network and Bachmann could have still released all three liveries with just a four car unit. Not to mention they already have the basic mechanism in the 220. I think I'm also correct in saying that the 222 wouldn't require any more body moulding variations than the BP but stand to be corrected on that one.

 

The only thing it doesn't have which the BP does is a very vocal minority screaming at every opportunity for it's release. I have to wonder how many people who've voted for that in the polls or have said they would by one will actually follow through with a purchase for what is going to be a £300+ model.

 

Anyway you care to cut it doesn't make a difference. A N gauge 222 release and a 00 Blue Pullman release have no equivalence on any level. Different markets, different criteria. You cannot address an 00 market with an N gauge model - simple as.

[Bomag]

Anyway you care to cut it doesn't make a difference. A N gauge 222 release and a 00 Blue Pullman release have no equivalence on any level. Different markets, different criteria. You cannot address an 00 market with an N gauge model - simple as.

 

Well they are both DEMUs intended for long distance, high speed market so there is equivalence at that level, they are both railway models, equivalence check - simple as, end of, period etc.

 

Come to think of it there is another equivalence in that both the 00 BP and N Voyager based models have been announced by two manufactures at the same time, odd that.