Royal Train Mk3 coaches

[vac_basher]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I haven't been able to find it on here or on the old RMweb.

 

I've seen Hornby are doing the R4400 HM The Queen's Mk3 saloon; the R4401 HRH The Duke Of Edinburgh's Mk3 saloon; the R2484 Royal Sleeping Car; and the R4403 Royal Dining Car.

These look quite nice, and the prices are jolly good too. A rake of these would certainly make a bit of a change on the layout.

 

I've searched but can't find much information on these coaches (Ironically years ago I used to have a book on the subject! ) Hopefully some kind soul will enlighten me.... My main concerns are basically:

As Hornby have modeled them, what period are these coaches suitable for? My modeling period is mainly 1987ish - 1992ish;

I know the Hornby models are based on the MK3 moulds they've been using for some time now, but how accurate are these coaches?

Did the Royal Train run in a standard formation; or was it frequently changed?

What coaches would one need for a prototypical representation of the train?

When the train wasn't in use where was it based? (Bristol Bath Road?) Was it parked outside/inside? Was it left in formation, or "disassembled"?

And finally, I seem to remember seeing the Royal Train on one occasion with a Mk2(?) at one (or both?) end and a really old (pre-war) vintage coache in the middle? Are these other vehicles presently available?

[298]

Unless i'm mistaken, the formation has had a Mk2's at either end (2920 and 2921), usually arranged so the Generator is behind the lead loco on arrival, then a staff sleeper, then staff coaches/Royal dining car, then the Duke's coach, then the Queen's coach (with the double doors next to the Duke's, and finally a Mk2 Brake.

 

To my knowledge, Hornby have yet to produce either type of Generator car, 2920 has a larger brake area and less compartments, whilst 2905 has some smaller windows- this coach is now with Riviera Trains as a power supply for railtour stock, whilst the other MK2 brake, 2906, is in use with Network Rail. This omission scuppers any attempt to model the full rake off the shelf, although Hurst models do etched sides for 2920 and many other Mk3's too. It also means only one Royal Train can be formed, although i'm not sure if tow have ever run on the Network at the same time.

 

Railway Modeller, July 1981 had an excellent article describing many of the older coaches, I think for your era you would be pushing it a bit to include anything other than a Mk2 or Mk3, but basically you could also have a Mk1 Restaurant car (325), a Mk1 Sleeper, 1950's built Queens children's coaches (the ex-Airfix Mk2D is the closest), plus an early scratchbuilt saloon (45000) on a Mk1 underframe.

[Beacon]

I'm sure someone more expert than me will reply soon but if you are interested I'd recommend this book which contains some great information and pictures on the Royal Train. The Hornby coaches are for modelling the current Royal Train (operating since the 70s) and are very smart but vary in accuracy. The least accurate I guess must be the Queen's saloon which in reality has double doors fitted but on the model is just a standard Hornby Mk3. The real coaches are based at Wolverton (I think they're still there) and I believe are stored indoors and each rake is made up individually according to the people travelling. There are Mk2 generator coaches that accompany the train which I expect are what you're referring to and Hornby have released a Mk2 coach in their Royal Train coach packs previously although I don't know if it is/was available separately and again it is smart but not overly accurate. If you want to model an actual rake from a set time you'd need to research it (some are given in the book I have linked to above) and if you want accurate representations of the coaches your best bet is probably the Hurst Models overlays.

 

Hope this is of some help. Doing a search on here you should find some old posts with pictures of the Royal Train too!

[vac_basher]

Thanks for your replies guys. I'm looking into it.

 

Since my OP I've found this: http://royalyard.webs.com/oogaugeroyalcoaches.htm

 

I didn't realize this was such a complex subject

[rs4]

Hello Vac Basher

 

I'm lucky enough to have a set of Royal Coaches custom built [Hurst overlays & general mods].

 

There is certainly the double door issue, but also roof details on the MK2s if I remember correctly.

 

I can take some pictures later on if you are interested.

 

I have the modern option of the 2 Royal 67s as haulage or more recently have used the Modelzone 47163 complete with Union Flag which seemed fitting for the BR era.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[298]

Rail Express no.4 lists the vehicles in use in 1996, and mentions a review was made in 1985 that basically saw only four vehicles retained (2903-2906), and another 10 added (2914-2923). Of these, two were new builds, two were taken from the last Mk3b sleeper batch, four were ex-HST TRUK and the final two were Mk2B BFK's. These coaches were introduced from 1985 to 1991, so your era is quite a crossover period and gives the opportunity to run pre-grouping to MK's 1,2 & 3 in the same train....!!

 

Of the models you've mentioned, I don't think Hornby have modelled one correctly, apart from the differences already mentioned there are a number of items on the roof such as aerials and escape hatches, and window variations as seen on the Hurst coaches. Sleeper 2914 has a standard window layout, but 2915 has full sized windows at one end. It all depends how accurate you want your rake to be.

[jamie92208]

If you are interested I have quite a few royal train pics from 1977 onwards and could scan them for you. From memory the first Mark 3's were introduced in 1977 for the Silver Jubilee and I believe came from the prototype HST. For some years after that there was still an LNWR built coach, albeit with modern bogies, in the formation. I think it was some sort of staff accommodation. I certainly saw it at Bradford in the early 80's.

 

On a modelling note when the train went to a secure stabling point overnight there was always a loco attached and this was usually the first that the loco depot could find and the bulled up 'royal loco' would be put on in the morning when the train departed for it's first engagement. I think I have some photos of this manouver when Dianna was on board which put it pre 1991.

 

If you are interested in some pics PM me.

 

Jamie

[vac_basher]

I can take some pictures later on if you are interested.

Nick, if it's not too much trouble for you, I'd love to see them!

 

escape hatches

I can't really immagine anybody onboard the Royal Train actually using them

 

 

there was still an LNWR built coach, albeit with modern bogies, in the formation.

That must be the old vintage coach I was thinking of.

 

 

I think I have some photos of this manouver when Dianna was on board which put it pre 1991.If you are interested in some pics PM me

Thanks Jamie. I'll have a good old search on Google and on Fotopic and if I don't find anything I'll be in touch.

[rs4]

Here we go... not the best pictures but they should give you an idea of at least one side of each coach in my rake:

 

And the complete rake... in my yard:

 

If you need better pictures - let me know ! Literally grabbed them before heading home tonight.

 

The Hornby Mk2s / Mk3s [shorties & scale length]I have will be going soon now I have this rake. That isnt a plug by the way!

 

Regards

 

Nick

[vac_basher]

Thanks Nick. They're very nice.

Your track looks great too. That's not OO is it?

I also like the prototype HST in the background. I hope they do a ready to run prototype HST in the future. I think it was a great looking machine.

[The Stationmaster]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I haven't been able to find it on here or on the old RMweb.

 

I've seen Hornby are doing the R4400 HM The Queen's Mk3 saloon; the R4401 HRH The Duke Of Edinburgh's Mk3 saloon; the R2484 Royal Sleeping Car; and the R4403 Royal Dining Car.

These look quite nice, and the prices are jolly good too. A rake of these would certainly make a bit of a change on the layout.

 

I've searched but can't find much information on these coaches (Ironically years ago I used to have a book on the subject! ) Hopefully some kind soul will enlighten me.... My main concerns are basically:

As Hornby have modeled them, what period are these coaches suitable for? My modeling period is mainly 1987ish - 1992ish;

I know the Hornby models are based on the MK3 moulds they've been using for some time now, but how accurate are these coaches?

Did the Royal Train run in a standard formation; or was it frequently changed?

What coaches would one need for a prototypical representation of the train?

When the train wasn't in use where was it based? (Bristol Bath Road?) Was it parked outside/inside? Was it left in formation, or "disassembled"?

And finally, I seem to remember seeing the Royal Train on one occasion with a Mk2(?) at one (or both?) end and a really old (pre-war) vintage coache in the middle? Are these other vehicles presently available?

 

The 'train' is kept under cover and it is not only cleaned outside but - unless things have changed - it is also polished.

 

The formation used depends entirely on the job it is undertaking - it might be as few as 5 vehicles or in excess of 10.

 

45000 was the Train Officer's saloon for a number of years, a smashing vehicle although I never got the chance to see the inside of it (unlike several others in the train).

[Ian Fisher]

Isnt the train usually kept at Wolverton works when not in use?

 

Ian

 

The 'train' is kept under cover and it is not only cleaned outside but - unless things have changed - it is also polished.

 

The formation used depends entirely on the job it is undertaking - it might be as few as 5 vehicles or in excess of 10.

 

45000 was the Train Officer's saloon for a number of years, a smashing vehicle although I never got the chance to see the inside of it (unlike several others in the train).

[The Stationmaster]

Isnt the train usually kept at Wolverton works when not in use?

 

Ian

 

Definitely used to be. I presume that its current home is fairly public knowledge/

[298]

Definitely used to be. I presume that its current home is fairly public knowledge/

 

It is still kept at that secret location, in it's own facility. Wolverton was due to have an open day last month, but the shed would have remained out of bounds.

[mpb56125]

Pictures of the royal train coaches at http://mark5810.fotopic.net/c318746_181.html and http://mark5810.fotopic.net/c318746_109.html

 

You can also get away with one coach in a freight train http://www.mark5812.fotopic.net/p67195526.html taken today in Arpley Yard

 

Mark

http://www.mark5812.fotopic.net

[298]

Pictures of the royal train coaches at http://mark5810.fotopic.net/c318746_181.html and http://mark5810.fotopic.net/c318746_109.html

 

You can also get away with one coach in a freight train http://www.mark5812.fotopic.net/p67195526.html taken today in Arpley Yard

 

Mark

http://www.mark5812.fotopic.net

 

Was that the coach that was failed at Glasgow Central last week and removed from Charles train...?

[Hilux5972]

Hi all. Following on this discussion, does anyone have any details about the 10th June 2008 Royal Train working by GWR King No.6024 King Edward I? Im looking for the coaches used and in what order. Done a quick search on Google but couldnt find any info. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

[298]

Hi all. Following on this discussion, does anyone have any details about the 10th June 2008 Royal Train working by GWR King No.6024 King Edward I? Im looking for the coaches used and in what order. Done a quick search on Google but couldnt find any info. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

 

http://railphotos.demeseo.com/p51126455.html

 

I think it's:

 

6024

2921

?

2922

2923

2916

2917

2915

2920

 

Don't know what the first Mk3 is, any ideas...? I'm thinking 2904....

[Tigger]

The website you mentioned is mine, sorry its not finished yet but as you say it is a very complex subject.

 

I have a huge amount of research now that I need to add to the website regarding the coaches and their detail, such as the order the rake is always formed, the various combinations of stock dependant on which member(s) of the Royal Family is using the train.

 

My interest is the Royal Train from 2002 to the present day giving me lots of scope for steam and diesel for example in 2002 the following locos were on the Royal Train

 

47798 Prince William

 

47799 Prince Henry

 

47787 Windsor Castle

 

66187 (No Name)

 

6233 Duchess of Sutherland

 

Just for interest the following may help

 

The current Royal Train Coaches, based at the Alstom Works at Wolverton is:

 

Running No Previous No Date in Service Description Status

 

2903 11001 1977 HM Queen's Saloon In service

 

2904 12001 1977 HRH Duke of Edinburgh's Saloon In service

 

2915 10735 1985 Royal Household sleeping car In service

 

2916 40512 1986 Royal Family dining car with kitchen In service

 

2917 40514 1986 Royal Household dining car with kitchen In service

 

2918 40515 1986 Royal Household car Stored Last used 2002

 

2919 40518 1986 Royal Household car Stored

 

2920 14109, 17109 1986 Royal Household couchette, diesel generator & brake van In service

 

2921 14107, 17107 1986 Royal Household couchette, brake van In service

 

2922 New 1987 HRH Prince of Wales's sleeping car In service

 

2923 New 1987 Royal saloon In service

 

 

The Royal Train has been Steam hauled on the Network Rails steel only 4 times since 1967

 

Date No Name Route Passengers

 

11-Jun-02 6233 Duchess of Sutherland Holyhead to Llandudno Junction HM Q DoE

 

22-Mar-05 6233 Duchess of Sutherland Settle to Carlisle PoW

 

19-Feb-09 60163 Tornado Naming Ceremony then York to Leeds PoW DoC

 

04-Feb-10 60163 Tornado Preston to Manchester PoW DoC

 

And once on preserved steel, The Severn Valley Railway

 

10-Jun-08 6024 King Edward I Kidderminster Town to Bridgnorth PoW DoC

 

I hope this is of interest

 

 

 

[valeofyork]

None of the Hornby models that I've looked at closely are correct - they've basically used standard toolings and the Royal carriages are all pretty much bespoke conversions / new builds and have non-standard window arrangements (and in the case of the Queen's Saloon, double doors at one end). No doubt it would be uneconomic to make toolings just for this train.

 

The most irritating inaccuracy is the Royal Household car. This is a convered HST TRUK, and should therefore be a 4-windowed buffet. Hornby have released it as a 3-windowed buffet, despite the fact that they are currently releasing 4-windowed buffets in other liveries!

 

Incidentally, Hornby's original release of the Queen's Saloon, a short-length Mk3, does have the correct double doors!