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Hornby Clan


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22 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I thought I'd seen it before on this thread! That's well cheeky if this is where they've got it from. It has struck me from the Hornby programme on TV at the moment that a lot of the researchers are very young and don't put themselves up as experts in the subjects they are modelling. Nothing wrong with this - the manufacturers need new blood and RTR is as much about design ability as prototype knowledge but I do wonder if this  error (because I'm convinced this is what it is) is a result of lack of knowledge and the misinterpretation of marginal evidence?

I think you have made an excellent point. There are still people here who have worked on the railways even in steam days and their knowledge is very deep. There isn’t the interest in railways that there was once and many come to the job raw. However careful young people are, the depth of understanding isn’t there. Why are smokeboxes black? They aren’t insulated; paint would discolour. Why are running plates black? Because boots trample all over them.

 

My late partner would listen patiently to me burble and would even manage to ask a bright question from time to time but I remember an incident when she swore a GWR 2-8-0 was black. It was, of course, green. I tried to look at it through her eyes. I just assumed (as we all do) that all steam locomotives have black smokeboxes and lots of black in various places. What distinguishes company liveries is the colour; so we talk of red, GWR green and so on. Looked at from the front, the 2-8-0 was black apart from the buffer beam.

 

I have never quite rid myself of the suspicion that she was trying to wind me up for some light relief. It can’t be easy being a SWMBO to a railway modeller.

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Its interesting reading the above, and its nice that Hornby are taking on board new younger comers to their established team.

 

However, I cant help but feel, by not engaging with their end customer who Hornby openly profess “count the rivets” and “vent online when its wrong”, that they are missing out of a pool of free talent, who actually spends money on their product who can advise what it is they want, and what mistakes exist..before money is committed to production.

 

I can understand secrecy about new development, but once its in the catalog, its committed and general knowledge  so its in everyones interest its as correct as it could be.

 

For example.. the headlight light on the Blue Pullman.. myself and others raised it, and even proposed a solution. But it took an army of opinion for them to agree to change it, and even their acknowledgement had a snipe remark about the those making the feedback online, which to me suggests they actually resent their end customer for raising enough opinion to make them change it.

 

Its complete opposite of several newer manufacturers who are happily eating Hornbys lunch, and engage the community with eyes and ears for EPs and soak up the rough with the smooth, ending up all the better for it.

 

its almost as if Hornby is a private mens club sometimes when it comes to feedback, its welcomed, but only from a selected few. My suspicion is all roads lead to 1 man for that feedback, which might be the catalyst for change some day once the new blood is established and needs that feedback.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Because the black paint used is less slippery than gloss "finishing" paint. Same paint used for things like tender tops and cab roofs.

 

 

 

Jason

If steam locomotives were still in main line use today I am sure that a rule for the use of textured paint on such areas would have been introduced.

Bernard

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On 10/11/2021 at 12:11, MikeParkin65 said:

I don't believe I implied ignorance  - simply lack of the detailed knowledge that only comes with experience. There is an awful lot of evidence that running boards were black on most loco's and very little evidence that Clans had green. If Hornby had followed convention and painted the boards black I doubt an eyebrow would have been raised. As it is they have made these models very distinctive based on very marginal evidence. I would love to see unambiguous evidence that Hornby have both of the current models correct in the latest release - I would happily stand corrected (I'm too young to have seen them first hand as well).  Glad you are happy with your model :)

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It should be significant evidence to make such a change. So far I've only seen a couple of photos that aren't conclusive.

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I think we should be careful about bashing younger members. Let's not forget there are young talent pools at other leading manufactures. They generally seem to get it right first more so that Hornby and when they don't are much more open to change.

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My take on the green running plates/tender top is that 72009  was given a special make over after its last overhaul, as steam was coming to an end.  Therefore green paint was sploshed everywhere, not following an official paint scheme as it didn't matter any more and they weren't going to need green paint much longer anyway.  So green running plates are at least feasible for that last paint scheme for 72009. 

Making 2 versions, the factory would just make the basic bodies in one paint scheme, therefore 72004 models would use the same painted bodies as 72009 and get the green running boards.

 

I'm reckoning now that my 72004 will get the (90% likely) black boards like every other loco with running boards that I've got.

 

It's done some hours running now, very quiet and reliable, looks good bopping round the layout. Just have to run it every session...

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On 12/11/2021 at 11:18, E100 said:

I think we should be careful about bashing younger members. Let's not forget there are young talent pools at other leading manufactures. They generally seem to get it right first more so that Hornby and when they don't are much more open to change.

I have several times been critical of the lack of consistent standards at Hornby, As a person with a long history of working in QA I find the lack of procedures at Hornby quite alarming. Back in the day we would take apprentices and graduates in hand and drill into them the need to maintain standards and to work to procedures that had stood the test of time. Trying to make a decision based on film from 1960 is simply not an acceptable practice. Trying to defend the decision when called on it just makes it worse. I would not call it bashing but would rather see it as trying to educate them.

Most of the people that I had a hand in training went on to much higher things and benefited from  bit of an arse kicking when I thought the situation demanded it.

Bernard 

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4 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have several times been critical of the lack of consistent standards at Hornby, As a person with a long history of working in QA I find the lack of procedures at Hornby quite alarming. Back in the day we would take apprentices and graduates in hand and drill into them the need to maintain standards and to work to procedures that had stood the test of time. Trying to make a decision based on film from 1960 is simply not an acceptable practice. Trying to defend the decision when called on it just makes it worse. I would not call it bashing but would rather see it as trying to educate them.

Most of the people that I had a hand in training went on to much higher things and benefited from  bit of an arse kicking when I thought the situation demanded it.

Bernard 

 

I entirely agree with the alarming lack of QA oversight. However, I would say that is lead more by company culture than by age of employee and again I will point at other manufactures with robust QA that quickly enables junior members to learn what is expected. Whilst there will be some coloration between age and ability for me it more fair to say that the motivation to get it right (empowered by company culture) is far more critical to creating high quality products in my humble opinion.

 

In other more on topic news, I am very thankful to have obtained Clan MacLeod for £125 on electronic bay. If it works as described then I will be very happy indeed.

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On 12/11/2021 at 11:18, E100 said:

I think we should be careful about bashing younger members. Let's not forget there are young talent pools at other leading manufactures. They generally seem to get it right first more so that Hornby and when they don't are much more open to change.

I don’t think anyone is bashing young people. It is inevitable that young people know less about what happened before they were born than older people. The trouble is that Hornby is trying to sell to people who have a deeper understanding of railways. On the other hand, whether old or young we are in much the same boat when it comes to pre-grouping and earlier.

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12 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I have several times been critical of the lack of consistent standards at Hornby, As a person with a long history of working in QA I find the lack of procedures at Hornby quite alarming. Back in the day we would take apprentices and graduates in hand and drill into them the need to maintain standards and to work to procedures that had stood the test of time. Trying to make a decision based on film from 1960 is simply not an acceptable practice. Trying to defend the decision when called on it just makes it worse. I would not call it bashing but would rather see it as trying to educate them.

Most of the people that I had a hand in training went on to much higher things and benefited from  bit of an arse kicking when I thought the situation demanded it.

Bernard 

You are quite right about Hornby’s poor quality. Although there are signs of matters improving, more is needed. The poor provision for DCC in Hornby’s Class 87 is a case in point. Did no-one try fitting a decoder into the space for it at EP stage? Then again, there is design. New entrants are taking on the established producers. Bachmann has accepted the challenge and is responding magnificently and even Heljan is making considerable efforts to improve its products. Hornby is falling badly behind. I’m not saying Hornby is bad; there is much that is good. The Class 87 is accurate, well finished and has a superb motor but it amazes me that its DCC provision is so bad even after the shambles of the earlier Class 74.

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At Sandown Park on Saturday at least two dealers were offering the original Clan (so 10 years old?) at £175. These were "new" models, possibly ex-shop stock. Prices for Hornby locos were high - £139 on models that may have been five years old, or more. .  Several dealers were offering  similar prices. If I was a cynic and paranoid I'd say it was a bit of price fixing. But we're talking toy trains here so surely not. And before anyone says it, yes dealers can ask whatever prices they like but whether people will pay it is another matter. I didn't see much money changing hands. As much as I'd like Sir William A Stanier  in maroon I wasn't paying £195. When was it produced?

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40 minutes ago, Farang said:

At Sandown Park on Saturday at least two dealers were offering the original Clan (so 10 years old?) at £175. These were "new" models, possibly ex-shop stock. Prices for Hornby locos were high - £139 on models that may have been five years old, or more. .  Several dealers were offering  similar prices. If I was a cynic and paranoid I'd say it was a bit of price fixing. But we're talking toy trains here so surely not. And before anyone says it, yes dealers can ask whatever prices they like but whether people will pay it is another matter. I didn't see much money changing hands. As much as I'd like Sir William A Stanier  in maroon I wasn't paying £195. When was it produced?

A bit off topic but I was at Sandown too. Amidst all the modern super-detail stuff priced in the £'00s I picked up this nicely detailed and weathered Lima Class 40. The price? £35...

IMG_20211113_184601.jpg

Edited by andyman7
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4 minutes ago, cbrooks122000 said:

According to the Model Rail Database 2017, which sounds about right for when I bought mine. £195 seems very high for this model, £150 to me would be the maximum, Olivias has it for £205 which is normally the highest price anywhere. Unless you really want that one the Duchess of Edinburgh is a lot cheaper new and this model has the improved front bogie (I can't remember if the Stanier has it as well). It is like EBay I see locos at very high prices, but they are there week after week. If you wait you will normally see them at a more reasonable price. It is sad that the Toy Fairs are getting to silly prices, it happened with Classic Motorbike prices before the pandemic, then the Dealers found that they weren't selling anything and the prices came down. Unfortunately I haven't been to a bike jumble since the pandemic started so I don't know what the prices are at now.

I've seen 2 very reasonable looking Clans from the first batch go for £95 and £125 on ebay in the past month. Horses for courses but the £95 one was a TMC version with etched plates, coaled tender and a coat of gloss varnish and looked well worth the money. With all things second hand the key is patience, if you are prepared to wait you can usually find the thing you want at a reasonable price  - my happiest recent bargain was a BR lined D16 with a Loksound V4 fitted for £75 :)

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10 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I've seen 2 very reasonable looking Clans from the first batch go for £95 and £125 on ebay in the past month. Horses for courses but the £95 one was a TMC version with etched plates, coaled tender and a coat of gloss varnish and looked well worth the money. With all things second hand the key is patience, if you are prepared to wait you can usually find the thing you want at a reasonable price  - my happiest recent bargain was a BR lined D16 with a Loksound V4 fitted for £75 :)

Just received the £125 one! Very nice indeed. A missing handbrake wheel on the tender and missing bottom rung from the rear left hand side tender step. Otherwise very nicely weathered and no green running board! Exactly as you say if you wait it will come up at the right price.

 

Also a D16 with a V4 is superb for £75!

Edited by E100
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Serious question.  Clans and Britannias have long and high running boards that can't be reached from the cab, only the front of the loco.  So cleaners when cleaning the boiler (when the locos were actually cleaned) must have worked their way along the running board and then back. So how were the boards cleaned, or were they just brushed to start with, perhaps?  Wouldn't have been cleaned with oily rags if they were going to be walked on. Can't have polished them as they were walked on so must have had a different finish to vertical surfaces and boiler. Painting them green is rather strange.....

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15 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Well done for catching me out and thanks for doing it so politely. I meant the 71. I could have sworn I checked the class numbers just to be sure.

You were getting my hopes up :)

I would like a Class 74 but the Silver Fox body does not look quite right.

 

Peter

 

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Hornby Magazine have posted a video of the new Hornby Clan: 

 

 

Some people have raised the running plate colour in the comments, to which Hornby Magazine have replied:

 

Quote

After much research the locos came out of the works with green running plates but were painted black during overhaul.

 and

Quote

They came out of the factory in real life with green running plates.

 

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Factory?  :scratchhead:

 

IMO the green running plate was a later addition to a handful of locomotives probably post 1964 when spray painting came in and most locomotives being painted would have been diesels. 70013 definitely, but only after it's late overhaul. Quite possibly one Clan.

 

Official BR specifications was black running plate. That is fact and not up for negotiation.

 

http://www.ianrathbonemodelpainting.co.uk/british-railways-liveries-1949---56.php

 

 

Is this a case of people trying to excuse Hornby's mistake?

 

 

Jason

 

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34 minutes ago, InterCity80s said:

Hornby Magazine have posted a video of the new Hornby Clan: 

 

 

Some people have raised the running plate colour in the comments, to which Hornby Magazine have replied:

 

 and

 


So where’s the Magazine’s factual evidence for such an assertion. ? What research?  Why should anyone find this credible when the issue is swept airily aside ? Sorry  they’ll have to do better than that .Unconvinced .

 

Edited by Ian Hargrave
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3 hours ago, InterCity80s said:

Hornby Magazine have posted a video of the new Hornby Clan: 

 

 

Some people have raised the running plate colour in the comments, to which Hornby Magazine have replied:

 

 and

 

 

Some people being myself! I will ask for a source.

 

 

Edit:

I'm actually a subscriber to the magazine and noticed they had mentioned it in HM174 but found this whilst searching to double check and reply. I'll quote here but more than happy for a mod to remove if they feel it breaches fair use - I figured as the reason was coming from a reader rather than themselves this wasn't privileged information and might help put minds at ease.

 

Quote

In our review in HM174 we questioned the choice of BR green for the upper surface of the running plate as all our research showed that BR green 'Standards' had black running plates. However, further information has come through from reader Ian Taylor who's father was a British Transport Commission Workshop Inspector. His notes confirmed that BR green running plates on the 'Britannia' and 'Clan' class 4-6-2s were a trait of Crewe Works for new locomotives. Period images made this difficult to discern, mainly because the ‘Clans’ always seem to have been in filthy condition when photographed with colour film! Nevertheless, Hornby's application of green on the running plate of 72004 is correct.

Edited by E100
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3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


So where’s the Magazine’s factual evidence for such an assertion. ? What research?  Why should anyone find this credible when the issue is swept airily aside ? Sorry  they’ll have to do better than that .Unconvinced .

 

The same ‘detailed research’ that has seen them fit the AWS bang plate to this non AWS fitted loco I should imagine :banghead:

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