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Hornby Clan


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1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks @E100 for this. This evidence is not documentary and might be regarded as second hand. The way to prove the point is surely through contemporary BR files and published rules. IMHO the Hornby Mag’s evidence is anecdotal and not corroborated by another opinion. 

 

Yes, I'm inclined to agree.  It also doesn't excuse 72009 which conversely on here appears to have been the more likely candidate. The way to help give some credit to this would be to check for Crewe built 7MT's which probably provide a larger pool of photos to check.

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1 minute ago, E100 said:

 

Yes, I'm inclined to agree.  It also doesn't excuse 72009 which conversely on here appears to have been the more likely candidate. The way to help give some credit to this would be to check for Crewe built 7MT's which probably provide a larger pool of photos to check.


Yes The other dodgy bit of this is the assertion that the Britannias were similarly treated.To assert that this is research is frankly laughable.  To date there simply is no credible evidence.It is highly unlikely that any colour images are to be found as colour photography was at the time in its infancy and despite some clairvoyant efforts at interpreting b&w images nothing of any substance can be found there either. Not a good example of magazine journalism to justify Hornby’s green running plate. 

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5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Yes The other dodgy bit of this is the assertion that the Britannias were similarly treated.To assert that this is research is frankly laughable.  To date there simply is no credible evidence.It is highly unlikely that any colour images are to be found as colour photography was at the time in its infancy and despite some clairvoyant efforts at interpreting b&w images nothing of any substance can be found there either. Not a good example of magazine journalism to justify Hornby’s green running plate. 

To be fair Mike Wilds words in Hornby Mag are:-

 

'There is one questionable area of the paint finish - all our research shows that the running plate surface should be black but it has been painted green on this model. Period images make this difficult to discern in fairness mainly because the Clans always seem to have been in filthy condition when photographed with colour film'

 

So Hornby Mag aren't guilty of the lack of research (AWS plate aside - the did the same with the LMS maroon 6231!)  - its Hornby PLC.

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Then again, didn't Hornby erroneously paint the inside of 34051's smoke deflectors green as well....

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/69899/R3866-Hornby-Battle-of-Britain-4-6-2-Steam-Loco-number-34051

 

 

I can't understand the assertion that it was Crewe Works practice. Otherwise all the Duchesses, Scots, Patriots, Jubilees, etc that were overhauled or painted there would also have had green running plates. Or red in LMS days.

 

As 46235 is in as withdrawn condition and never restored since it was preserved then I'll post this as being correct Crewe practice.

 

https://flickr.com/photos/39415781@N06/8619602473

 

 

If Hornby is correct does that mean they've been painting their Britannia models wrong for the last fifty odd years? I find that unlikely.

 

 

Jason

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27 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

To be fair Mike Wilds words in Hornby Mag are:-

 

'There is one questionable area of the paint finish - all our research shows that the running plate surface should be black but it has been painted green on this model. Period images make this difficult to discern in fairness mainly because the Clans always seem to have been in filthy condition when photographed with colour film'

 

So Hornby Mag aren't guilty of the lack of research (AWS plate aside - the did the same with the LMS maroon 6231!)  - its Hornby PLC.


Thanks for that.I am somewhat confused about the source of the original post by E100 quoting a source of material contained in the magazine which appear to support the premise that evidence for a green running plate has been found and is quoted.  So where did the information originate ? Hornby or the quoted third party ? In other words Hornby are feeding the magazine the information and they publish.That’s unclear and open to misinterpretation.

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1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:


Thanks for that.I am somewhat confused about the source of the original post by E100 quoting a source of material contained in the magazine which appear to support the premise that evidence for a green running plate has been found and is quoted.  So where did the information originate ? Hornby or the quoted third party ? In other words Hornby are feeding the magazine the information and they publish.That’s unclear and open to misinterpretation.

As far as I can tell Hornby Magazine have only referenced it once as per the quote above - its in the current issue of the magazine. Yesterday they shared the video linked above which didnt mention it at all (although it was quite late when I was watching it!). They may have said something on social media but I think if we take the magazine to be their published view then Hornby Mag - as in Mike Wild - agree with us, there is no evidence and it is wrong. 

 

Agree this thread has lost focus a little regarding this issue but I think I am correct in saying only Hornby PLC have said there is evidence first by citing 70013 in preservation and second by apparently referencing a photo originally shared by Silver Sidelines on this thread.

 

Subsequently people here appear to have spent days looking at black and white images and trying to convince themselves and then us that black is green...........:help::banghead::jester:

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3 hours ago, adb968008 said:


ive just looked through a few hundred pictures of 6 and 7 MT on Colour Rails website.

From all those pictures, Ive found two possible supporting candidates… both are overhead views.

 

Ref: BRS289 - 70004 ex works 1957

Ref: 307166 72007 

 

 

 

Just had a look at the 307166 pic of 72007, (side view from above) and the running boards look black to me.

70004? H'mm, could be same colour as boiler.

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I have been following this thread with interest, especially given the emotions it seems to have stirred up. There are enough clues here to suggest that ex-works at least, green running plates were not unheard of at least on some locos. Now that may be far from unequivocal proof, but it equally means that those that say the model 'must' be wrong cannot absolutely prove their case either. Ultimately you pay your money and take your choice, but for me at least it allows for a steam era livery variation we haven't had on an RTR model before.

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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hornby has made countless mistakes, all of which are captured here, my favourite being the Grange allocated to Stewarts lane. But 46235 isnt a Brittania, and BR arent immune to mistakes either.

 

But Hornby arent really known for defending “mistakes”, usually they have happy ears and “no one has said anything to them”.

 

I dont mind doing a bit of research, Ive looked at over 500 6mt/7mt images today… I have 3 possible candidates that may defend Hornbys position… all were new locos ex- works.
 

When I see pictures like 70004 above, (and a colour picture on Colourrails website ref BRS289 go look at it..) ..

plus this (url david hays website )

405fb63b1b507ecfb4bf2970436478eb.jpg

This is another that pauses thought for a minute..

(url link from DavidHeys site).

2b239bd9ed6fef8b99dd8fa0ae6b9a9d.jpg


isnt it a shame this image isnt in colour..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-Locomotive-70000-Britannia-Goes-Into-Service-London-To-Norwich-/233847938430


Even colour pictures arent reliable..

flickr url.

72005 Clan Macgregor coasts into Perth with a very mixed goods


I am not too old to still be open minded, though I do agree with everyone that it should be black.. almost every loco did have a black running plate, but that doesnt mean a day 1 brand new loco may have been green, and most likely within a week or so it would be dirty, or black, railways arent unknown to have made decisions that weren't in the guidelines and later amend them…

 

Granted if it is correct, its an odd choice to have made it at all though…if it was only like this condition for a week or so…but then again Hornby made 87001 with two nameplates and that only ran like it once for a few hours, light engine, and 4464 in a preserved condition that it never ran at all.


My thought is focus on 70004/14 … there appearance when new on the Southern seemed to have attracted a lot of camera attention… that maybe the best way to prove one way or the other. Interesting though two different preservation groups have made the same “mistake” when independently restoring their locos… lets see if LSL make the “mistake” again when 70000 does its steam test in the next few weeks.

 

What did stand out also in the 70004 image above, is the Builders plate.. quite brightly painted, as is the burnished smokebox door hinges, shiny handrails and extended length lampirons etc also not common on other images Ive seen… 

 

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hornby has made countless mistakes, all of which are captured here, my favourite being the Grange allocated to Stewarts lane. But 46235 isnt a Brittania, and BR arent immune to mistakes either.

 

But Hornby arent really known for defending “mistakes”, usually they have happy ears and “no one has said anything to them”.

 

I dont mind doing a bit of research, Ive looked at over 500 6mt/7mt images today… I have 3 possible candidates that may defend Hornbys position… all were new locos ex- works.
 

When I see pictures like 70004 above, (and a colour picture on Colourrails website ref BRS289 go look at it..) ..

plus this (url david hays website )

405fb63b1b507ecfb4bf2970436478eb.jpg

This is another that pauses thought for a minute..

(url link from DavidHeys site).

2b239bd9ed6fef8b99dd8fa0ae6b9a9d.jpg


isnt it a shame this image isnt in colour..

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-Locomotive-70000-Britannia-Goes-Into-Service-London-To-Norwich-/233847938430


Even colour pictures arent reliable..

flickr url.

72005 Clan Macgregor coasts into Perth with a very mixed goods


I am not too old to still be open minded, though I do agree with everyone that it should be black.. almost every loco did have a black running plate, but that doesnt mean a day 1 brand new loco may have been green, and most likely within a week or so it would be dirty, or black, railways arent unknown to have made decisions that weren't in the guidelines and later amend them…

 

Granted if it is correct, its an odd choice to have made it at all though…if it was only like this condition for a week or so…but then again Hornby made 87001 with two nameplates and that only ran like it once for a few hours, light engine, and 4464 in a preserved condition that it never ran at all.


My thought is focus on 70004/14 … there appearance when new on the Southern seemed to have attracted a lot of camera attention… that maybe the best way to prove one way or the other. Interesting though two different preservation groups have made the same “mistake” when independently restoring their locos… lets see if LSL make the “mistake” again when 70000 does its steam test in the next few weeks.

 

What did stand out also in the 70004 image above, is the Builders plate.. quite brightly painted, as is the burnished smokebox door hinges, shiny handrails and extended length lampirons etc also not common on other images Ive seen… 

 


Picture2 is of 70021 named as “ Morning Star” ? One of the batch allocated to the Western Region when released from Crewe..70004 William Shakespeare built 1951 did time at the South Bank railway exhibition of modern locomotives that year of The Festival Of Britain.70014 Iron Duke was released a short while later. Both were later allocated to Stewart’s Lane and earmarked for the Golden Arrow which accounts for their gleaming condition. 70021 IIRC went first to either Old Oak or Laira so the caption is puzzling .At a guess it’s a running in turn from Crewe Works.

 

The link to eBay shows something totally

 different btw Thus the image and the link are unrelated 

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1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Subsequently people here appear to have spent days looking at black and white images and trying to convince themselves and then us that black is green...........:help::banghead::jester:

How insulting.

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12 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 


Picture2 is of 70021 named as “ Morning Star” ? One of the batch allocated to the Western Region when released from Crewe.. er Norwich ? . Don’t think so. 70004 William Shakespeare built 1951 did time at the South Bank railway exhibition of modern locomotives that year of The Festival Of Britain.70014 Iron Duke was released a short while later. Both were later allocated to Stewart’s Lane and earmarked for the Golden Arrow which accounts for their gleaming condition. 70021 IIRC went first to either Old Oak or Laira so the caption is puzzling .At a guess it’s a running in turn from Crewe Works.

 

The link to eBay shows something totally

 different btw

you might want to refresh your browser cache.

 

I've deleted them anyway, Mike Parkin is right, i’ll close my mind and rip on Hornby, I apologise, I must have the wrong script.

 

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22 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Apologies -  no insult intended. But I do think it is a trivial pursuit. 

Fair enough.

 

I love trivial pursuits though.

99% you get no where, you learn a lot in the process thats useful for the future.

1% you get the result, good or bad.

 

I think the best route to a result would be a 1951 Festival of Britain picture of 70000 or a 70037 at 1954 Willesdon Depot open day, or 70004/70014 picture… events more likely to reveal an ex-works loco. 

But whilst for some its an adament No, to me i’m open minded either way… Ive seen plenty of improbable railway events to believe that such events didn't just start with the advent of the internet and digital camera, and could be plausible in the past, even if for a day.

But even then, I’m generally not a fan of models that only represent “1 week in the life of” but for some those are “point in life” memories too, as this may be someones.

 

I dont understand though why both 70000 and 70013 have been restored with green running plates, despite the contrary and counter to standards and known practice… if you look at 70000 theyve even painted the front angled running plate at the front green too, though 70013 is black.

 

One thought I was left with today though… most pictures were clearly taken by kids, as even in the platform the pictures dont even reach the running plate height…but why did kids not take many pictures from bridges in the 50’s/60’s ? Proportionally theres very few.

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16 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 Interesting this as Hornby have produced 70004 in 2012 as R 3096 . 

Theres quite a lot wrong with this model, I have learned today, much more than the running boards…

 

Smokebox door, lamp irons, handrails, deflectors bars, buildersplate, dome, coupling rods.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Theres quite a lot wrong with this model, I have learned today, much more than the running boards…

 

Smokebox door, lamp irons, handrails, deflectors bars, buildersplate, dome, 

 

 

 Indeed but looking now on LocoYard website the running plate as modelled then by Hornby is black. I’m  just using this as an example in reply to a post

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8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

… why did kids not take many pictures from bridges in the 50’s/60’s ? Proportionally theres very few.


For purely statistical reasons, I would think. What proportion of railway lines have a bridge above them?

 

Also influenced by shutter speeds on cameras of the time. Many of those readily available to ‘kids’ i.e. cheap were fixed (and slow) speed. You’re not going to waste a relatively-expensive frame of film on a moving shot of a train out on the line, which will almost certainly be blurred. So most pictures were taken from station platforms or from ground level in sheds, where the subjects weren’t moving.

 

Signed,

A picture-taking kid of the 1960s.

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1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

I have been following this thread with interest, especially given the emotions it seems to have stirred up. There are enough clues here to suggest that ex-works at least, green running plates were not unheard of at least on some locos. Now that may be far from unequivocal proof, but it equally means that those that say the model 'must' be wrong cannot absolutely prove their case either. Ultimately you pay your money and take your choice, but for me at least it allows for a steam era livery variation we haven't had on an RTR model before.

I haven't got the masking tape and black paint out yet, (but it's pretty cold to go spraying things in the garage) :mellow:

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22 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 Indeed but looking now on LocoYard website the running plate as modelled then by Hornby is black. I’m  just using this as an example in reply to a post

I cant think of any Britannia or Clan previously made by Hornby where the running board wasnt black, until this pair, only the Trix ones of the 1960’s had a green running plate..

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I cant think of any Britannia or Clan previously made by Hornby where the running board wasnt black, until this pair, only the Trix ones of the 1960’s had a green running plate..

 

 

 

 

Despite all the attempted justification from Hornby, is ANYONE persuaded that this is anything other than a cover-up of a factory b*lls-up?

 

Easier and cheaper than holding up your hands, and having to provide correctly finished bodies FOC!

 

CJI.

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Back in the day - and living north of the border - I saw all the Clans and underlined their numbers in red biro in my IA Locospotters book.  I cannot recall ever seeing an example of an ex-works one. From memory they were always a sooty shade of black. (Alisdair)

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9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Despite all the attempted justification from Hornby, is ANYONE persuaded that this is anything other than a cover-up of a factory b*lls-up?

 

Easier and cheaper than holding up your hands, and having to provide correctly finished bodies FOC!

 

CJI.


i’m open minded, but I do think if they are right its an odd decision to go with.

 

However the shade of green/orange imo is way too light, and is far worse than the running board issue, which would be more obscure with a darker shade anyway.

I prefer my older Clan.

 

 

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