Model Rail Sentinel

[Bernard Lamb]

 

The costs of producing it would not be the same.

 

 

Quite correct.

That tiny tiny amount of material used in the printing process would make a big saving in the total cost.

Offset many times over by the need to produce a different carton plus more complex stock control procedures.

Usual disclaimer applies.

Bernard

[cctransuk]

Not a lot. But you make a sale, so who's complaining?

 

 

Err, so you and your manufacturer could actually make more profit!! But again, who exactly is complaining at such a prospect?

 

 

The costs of producing it would not be the same. Whether buyers expect the price to be cheaper is neither here nor there, really; if they want it, they will buy it. Look at what the American market has been doing for the last 20 years.

 

All you are admitting is that UK manufacturers still cannot get their tiny brains around the market for undecorated models. And whilst we're on the subject, didn't I read a magazine editorial a few years back extolling the virtues of the availability of undecorated models? I wonder what magazine that was.

 

A wholly unjustified, rude and provocative response IMHO.

 

What do the Moderators think?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[dibber25]

Looks like I was being too honest and open in revealing our thoughts. Our tiny brains are trying to produce a product that we think people might want, whilst at the same time making a profit for those who employ us and who, along with the editorial team, have stuck their collective necks (with tiny brains on the end) out to commission a new product at considerable expense and risk. It has been OUR collective decision that a plain black model is not a good idea because it would be likely to dilute the market for the fully-finished models. The costs of producing it ARE the same. We'll be paying a set price for the models regardless of the level of finish. We're not in the American market, we don't have the volume sales which the US has, nor do we have the huge variety of liveries.

CHRIS LEIGH

[S.A.C Martin]

A wholly unjustified, rude and provocative response IMHO.

 

What do the Moderators think?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Hopefully the same thing!

 

Given the level of openness Mr Leigh has shown us, and the respect with which he has shown us, surely it would be fair to extend the same level of courtesy and at the least, show some manners?

 

I would prefer to buy a finished Sentinel with a particular livery applied - that way I know I am getting the best paint finish for my money. I wouldn't be comfortable having to apply branding myself onto the model when I know a better finish overall can be achieved RTR.

[Mod5]

A wholly unjustified, rude and provocative response IMHO.

 

What do the Moderators think?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

Sometimes it is not what is said but the way it is said. I am also mindful that the typed word does not always convey exactly what it is supposed to do to everyone reading it.

 

What I would suggest is that Model Rail or any magazine for that matter make money out of selling magazines and not producing models for us. So perhaps we should be happy that a different model previously unavailable is being considered and that those interested are in fact being asked what they want.

 

So perhaps we could return to the OP and refrain from commenting on the perceived evils.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Different type of Sentinel at Whifflets,

 

 

http://www.srpssteam.com/locos/Sentinels.htm

 

 

 

 

Arthur

 

Thanks Arthur, I stand corrected.

 

I'll still be having a BR black one Chris, numbered or otherwise...!

 

Dave.

[Arthur]

Thanks Arthur, I stand corrected.

 

I'll still be having a BR black one Chris, numbered or otherwise...!

 

Dave.

Those Whifflet Sentinels are pretty neat looking, I did initially think ? :icon_idea: ? of a scratchbuilt body on a Model Rail chassis. ? Sadly the two types of chassis solebars look quite different.

 

Still, I'll be up for a BR black one too!

 

Arthur

[Pennine MC]

 

 

All you are admitting is that UK manufacturers still cannot get their tiny brains around the market for undecorated models.

 

Whether that be true or not, it seems more than a tad unfair to berate Chris for it. If a change in policy was to come about, I'd have thought it hardly likely to do so via a short run limited edition

[Andy Y]

you are admitting is that UK manufacturers still cannot get their tiny brains around the market for undecorated models.

 

I do think that this post is inappropriately offensive, it is the manufacturers decision or those commissioning a model to approach as they see fit as it is their investment and business plan. Such comments are not likely to see manufacturers or? those commissioning a model to engage with this forum if that's the attitude they are met with.

 

 

Thanks a bundle.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

I apologise for giving offence. It was not my intention, but I admit the inclusion of 'tiny' was a gratitutous adjective too far, although it reflected my indignation when I wrote what I did. So let me re-formulate the (essentially simple) issue in non-emotive terms - why is it, in the face of a customer demand, that UK manufacturers are unwilling to entertain a business model that includes the selling of an undecorated model for the same price as a decorated one.

[jwealleans]

I thought Miss P's post was quite out of character. While I agree with the basic request, I'm not sure that a limited edition commission is the place a manufacturer or sponsor would take a punt on the market for such a model being there.

 

Maybe Andy can amend the forum code such that every time anyone froths about a Blue Pullman it's replaced with a request for undecorated models?

[60B]

Maybe Andy can amend the forum code such that every time anyone froths about a Blue Pullman it's replaced with a request for undecorated models?

 

Like!!!

[craigwelsh]

Maybe Andy can amend the forum code such that every time anyone froths about a Blue Pullman it's replaced with a request for undecorated models?

Actually when a manufacturer does get around to the Blue Pullmann i'd quite like it painted, the multilayer crests not being something I want to do with transfers .

[cctransuk]

Actually when a manufacturer does get around to the Blue Pullmann i'd quite like it painted, the multilayer crests not being something I want to do with transfers .

 

Couldn't be easier !!

 

See BL62 and BL63 at http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/products.htm

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

Cambridge Custom Transfers.

[MarkSG]

I apologise for giving offence. It was not my intention, but I admit the inclusion of 'tiny' was a gratitutous adjective too far, although it reflected my indignation when I wrote what I did. So let me re-formulate the (essentially simple) issue in non-emotive terms - why is it, in the face of a customer demand, that UK manufacturers are unwilling to entertain a business model that includes the selling of an undecorated model for the same price as a decorated one.

 

I'm pretty sure that there isn't really a significant demand for it. A few people on a web forum saying "I want it" does not constitute the level of demand required, at least for the major RTR manufacturers. The overwhelming majority of Hornby's sales, for example, are to people who would never even dream of painting or lining their own model, and the same is almost certainly true for Bachmann. It might possibly not be the case for Dapol, as they have a lower profile among collectors and train set operators and hence probably have a higher proportion of hobbyist customers. But Dapol do sell some unpainted wagons, so they're certainly not averse to that particular business model where appropriate. (Is there anyon here from the trade who could give us an idea of what proportion of Dapol's sales are of unpainted wagons, compared to the painted versions of the same thing?)

 

In the US, the total market is much larger so even if the proportion of people who'd paint their own is the same as in the UK, there are probably still enough of them to justify it. But in the rather smaller UK market, there almost certainly isn't enough real demand to be worth it.

 

Mark

[60B]

 

 

In the US, the total market is much larger so even if the proportion of people who'd paint their own is the same as in the UK, there are probably still enough of them to justify it. But in the rather smaller UK market, there almost certainly isn't enough real demand to be worth it.

 

Mark

 

Spot on there, Mark. The UK market is far smaller and less able to hold up such American notions (for want of a better phrase).

[Revolution Ben]

Hi folks

 

Apart from the volume of potential sales, there is another issue with undecorated models in the UK compared to the US.

 

In the US a significant "rump" of the hobby model small or imaginary shortlines. Undecorated models are very useful for them. In the UK there isn't such a tradition.

 

There is another consideration: Some of the undecorated Sentinels will almost certainly be lettered/numbered to a poorer standard than r-t-r - yet anyone asking at an exhibition about the model will probably just be told "it's a Model Rail Sentinel", and may incorrectly assume that the finish on the r-t-r products is poor and be put off buying....

 

It's a shame, because I like the idea of undecorated models, but I can see the arguments against...

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Guest dilbert]

IIRC Replica at the end of the 80s produced an undecorated steamer (B1?) and also a undecorated diesel (Cl. 45?)...

 

Dapol also produced several undecorated wagons, the Conflat was one of these...

 

Bachmann in the early 90s issued undecorated models for the market - the ones that immediately spring to mind were GW rolling stock items such as the TOAD, MOGO and Vent vans (I have several of these).

 

No RTR undecorated models are produced for the market today - so there is obviously a problem linked to selling this type of product (price/cost points, volume, demand (apathy, no interest) etc...).

 

I would like to see freight rolling stock, painted appropriately, and unnumbered, issued in "mega" packs (e.g. five or eight or ten wagons per pack), but I suspect that this won't happen for essentially the same reasons that undecorated stock has never really taken off in the UK market...dilbert

[Mark Dickerson]

In the US a significant "rump" of the hobby model small or imaginary shortlines. Undecorated models are very useful for them. In the UK there isn't such a tradition.

It's more of a niche, but industrials do feature - even if it might occasionally be those same US models cunningly disguised (although much less than, say, 20 years back).

 

I'm waiting to see if any industrial liveries are voted for by readers of Model Rail. I'm guessing GWR No.13 ended up merely stripped of its numberplates (from the illustration in Mainline to industry), so might be a compromise option. Failing that, presumably spare bodies will become available?

[MarkSG]

Apart from the volume of potential sales, there is another issue with undecorated models in the UK compared to the US.

 

In the US a significant "rump" of the hobby model small or imaginary shortlines. Undecorated models are very useful for them. In the UK there isn't such a tradition.

 

And that's a reflection of a big difference between the UK and the US in prototype practice, as well. In the US, short lines make up 30% of total railroad mileage (according to Wikipedia, anyway). That's a significant chunk of the whole, and, more importantly, it's a lot of small railroads. In the UK, though, there simply isn't any equivalent. Other than preserved lines and self-contained industrial systems, there haven't been any small, independent operators of standard gauge railways in the UK since the grouping. You've got to go back to the likes of Colonel Stephens to find anything like a real short line railway in the UK.

 

Mark

[Mark Dickerson]

Hmmm - there's maybe less of a case for, say, undecorated larger diesels, but there were more than a few "self-contained industrial systems", and layouts featuring them have not always gone for actual liveries. Something like the Sentinel is quite likely to end up repainted by industrial fans, so I'd hope we might at least see spare bodies available at some point. Had this been a more purely industrial prototype (a GE 45-tonner over 44t or 70t models to use a US parallel), the case might be stronger still.

[stewartingram]

Just my tuppence worth - all these calls for a plain black body? Now I may be wrong, but aren't virtually all the proposed versions plain black with minimal decoration (loco number, crest)? Is it not beyond a MODELLER, who is going to put his identity on the loco, to remove said loco number anyway? No offence intended btw. I can understand MR wanting to sell as many as possible and plain ones would limit sales of all the variants.

[Mark Dickerson]

It might be beyond a BODGER, so I'd quite like a spare body for when I muck it up. With the exception (off the top of my head) of Isebrook and the Derwent Valley one, the Y1/3 types were relatively undecorated in industrial service, so repainting hopefully shouldn't be a problem. Something with a decent industrial finish would be nice though.

[cctransuk]

so repainting hopefully shouldn't be a problem.

 

Quite !

 

1 - Remove body

 

2 - Mask bufferbeams with Blutack or similar

 

3 - Take outdoors and squirt with black paint can

 

4 - Allow to dry

 

5 - Remove masking

 

6 - Apply transfers of choice and seal with varnish of choice

 

7 - Refit body

 

Definitely within the scope of a bodger.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[stewartingram]

It might be beyond a BODGER, so I'd quite like a spare body for when I muck it up. With the exception (off the top of my head) of Isebrook and the Derwent Valley one, the Y1/3 types were relatively undecorated in industrial service, so repainting hopefully shouldn't be a problem. Something with a decent industrial finish would be nice though.

...but why repaint a black loco black. or am I missing something? Just quick removal of numbers surely, without affecting paint? Plenty of topics on RMWeb about how simple that is.