S.A.C Martin Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 So who will be the final 'armchair' arbiter to determine which railways are told their services are no longer wanted and which locomotives are scrapped as surplus to requirements? That was pretty much my first thought on reading this thread. Suffice to say, not my place (as currently, not a volunteer anymore - was at GCR but have now left university) to tell anyone they're wasting their time. I wonder if we're being overly pessimistic. How did all these railways come into being and save their lines in the first place? The world is not a like for like recreation of The Titfield Thunderbolt, but they all started somewhere and have visions of their own to follow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 So who will be the final 'armchair' arbiter to determine which railways are told their services are no longer wanted and which locomotives are scrapped as surplus to requirements? Don't forget that some railways have already closed, either outright as in Dinting, Ashchurch, and Peak Rail at Buxton, whilst others have become more of a commercial operation such as Carnforth. Whilst I personally wouldn't want to call time on any of the more recent lines, the question must be asked whether the rescource that has gone into them could have been better spent at already established railways, for example Wirksworth and the Midland Railway Centre Vs Matlock-Buxton. The motive power issue is a little clearer, there's no danger of scrapping locos that are surplus to requirements as that implies they have some useful life, but there are plenty of "ongoing" projects that have never run and don't recieve the time and money they warrant to restore, following onto the absolute basket cases which were never going to suceed considering their condition and spares availability, number already in preservation, and owners general incompetence and over enthusiasm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 following onto the absolute basket cases which were never going to suceed considering their condition and spares availability, number already in preservation, and owners general incompetence and over enthusiasm. ...which, of course, accounts for 90% of the locos currently steaming up and down every preserved line in the country. The tales I could tell! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 I don't think it's for any 'armchair referee' to say what stays and what goes. If any lines were to fail or any restoration projects to cease due to lack of support, it will be the individual circumstances of each case that will determine such happenings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 So who will be the final 'armchair' arbiter to determine which railways are told their services are no longer wanted and which locomotives are scrapped as surplus to requirements? The armchair arbiter will be the one who keeps bum on the armchair and doesn't get up to help, or make donations , or visit such railways and spend money at them. Alas the more armchair arbiters there are the poorer will be preservation and the preserved/tourist railways - and those who stay in their armchairs won't even have to bother voting, their inaction will be quite sufficient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 The armchair arbiter will be the one who keeps bum on the armchair and doesn't get up to help, or make donations , or visit such railways and spend money at them. Alas the more armchair arbiters there are the poorer will be preservation and the preserved/tourist railways - and those who stay in their armchairs won't even have to bother voting, their inaction will be quite sufficient. Remember though enthusiasts, armchair or otherwise only account for a small amount of most of the big railways turnover and profit. Our work suggests they account for only about 20% of all journeys and purchases. Most is the ordinary family coming for s day out, who really don't care what is on the front apart from if they are expecting steam (or Diesel) they get what they expect, and with good service. Having said that loosing 20% of revenue would be a disaster for any railway, especially in the current climate. There is a simple end to this support your preserved lines, even if you only buy a cup of coffee, a book, or a pint. Even better go for a ride the scenery is different every day, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Warrior Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The preserved class 81-85 AC electrics will probably never run again but they are unique and well looked after, instead of alot of diesels which are brought "because someone wants to be a loco owner" but underestimates the time and cost involved. And to balance these locos, there are two preserved AC's earning revenue on the mainline, which must be the pinnacle of any society that doesn't have a couple of millionares to back them up. The AC loco group are working to get the locos in their care back onto the mainline. As mentioned above they already have at least two working. See: http://www.aclocogroup.co.uk/ I'm quite fond of replica or rebuilt locos, if it means a society (such as the GWS at Didcot) can present a more varied loco stud at the expense of well represented classes then that can only be a good thing. Future generations really won't care that the Saint used to be a Hall or the Railmotor wasn't as such for a while, or Tornado was newly built. But surely the biggest omission we're forgetting is not leaving an ex-Barry loco in exactly that condition, as a reminder to the condition that alot of these locos were in. I think there is a place for both new build and restoration. The Standard 3 Tank project is a case in point. An ideal loco for preserved railways. A new build may also be cheaper in the long run rather than an expensive rebuild of an old loco. There are several ex-Barry locos which have not steamed in preservation which would be very useful on Heritage lines: an LMS 4F 0-6-0, two Ivatt class 2 2-6-2T's and several Ivatt Class 2 2-6-0's. For me these should be priority where they are now or moved on to where they will be restored! The locos that worry me still in ex Barry condition are the Mechant Navy Pacifics and the GWR 28XX 2-8-0's. These will cost a lot of money to restore and are expensive to run. The main line might support a couple more Merchant Navy's but not all of them. How long before one or more does get "dismantled!" I also think that Heritage Lines have got to tighten up on unrestored stock lieing around which does little for the appearance of many lines. Coaching stock is a case in point. There are many unique wooden bodied coaches quietly rotting away in sidings and soon it will be to late, they will be beyound restoration. Heritage Lines are beginning to say to owners: "Either restore you property or take it elsewhere." Siding space "costs" and many railways are charging for stock to stand in them if they are not "productive!" Just a few thoughts! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The locos that worry me still in ex Barry condition are the Mechant Navy Pacifics and the GWR 28XX 2-8-0's. These will cost a lot of money to restore and are expensive to run. The main line might support a couple more Merchant Navy's but not all of them. How long before one or more does get "dismantled!" The Merchant Navy is a good example of the thoughts behind this thread. Out of 10 or 11* survivors (a pretty good rate and maybe over-representation from a class of 30?) about 6 have actually run in preservation. [* depends whether you count 'Ellerman Lines' @ NRM] Other than the pipe-dream of (cosmetically at least) restoring one to original air-smoothed form, or preserving one in 'Barry' condition (which would still need attention to prevent further deterioration); would the class as a whole now be better served if a couple of those that have never run were broken up to provide spare parts (boiler, cylinders etc etc) to keep the runners in service and earning their keep rather than diluting the available interest, time, and funds over a greater number of locos? Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 I also think that Heritage Lines have got to tighten up on unrestored stock lieing around which does little for the appearance of many lines. Coaching stock is a case in point. There are many unique wooden bodied coaches quietly rotting away in sidings and soon it will be to late, they will be beyound restoration. Heritage Lines are beginning to say to owners: "Either restore you property or take it elsewhere." Siding space "costs" and many railways are charging for stock to stand in them if they are not "productive!" I know of one line which has done exactly that and chucked out the several various 'preservation' groups that were helping to make its property untidy. The result is much improved and attractive site which has brought in extra casual visitors who no longer get the impression of a junkyard as they drive by. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 I don't think it's for any 'armchair referee' to say what stays and what goes. If any lines were to fail or any restoration projects to cease due to lack of support, it will be the individual circumstances of each case that will determine such happenings. The problem is there are some absolutely "no hopers" within diesel preservation, yet any threat to scrap them is susally met by cries from those hurriedly crawling out of the woodwork, trying to put an appeal together to save them because of some minor historical insignificance. Class 50's are a good example, at least three "preserved" ones have been cut so far to the usual howls of protest, yet the rest of the class are hardly stretched or properly looked after, and spares availability is still an issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 27, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 27, 2011 The problem is there are some absolutely "no hopers" within diesel preservation, yet any threat to scrap them is susally met by cries from those hurriedly crawling out of the woodwork, trying to put an appeal together to save them because of some minor historical insignificance. Class 50's are a good example, at least three "preserved" ones have been cut so far to the usual howls of protest, yet the rest of the class are hardly stretched or properly looked after, and spares availability is still an issue. The Class 50 is a perfect example of heart ruling head when it comes to preservation and in many ways, reinforcing my original post. As to "armchair arbiter" deciding what stays or goes, the point I was trying to make was, nothing goes (that's already there), but that we don't need any more locos, especially if they repeat something already preserved. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 The Class 50 is a perfect example of heart ruling head when it comes to preservation and in many ways, reinforcing my original post. As to "armchair arbiter" deciding what stays or goes, the point I was trying to make was, nothing goes (that's already there), but that we don't need any more locos, especially if they repeat something already preserved. Cheers, Mick I don't agree with that - if something is preserved in the North of England, doesn't get out on the mainline down this way then I've got no chance of seeing it unless it's trundled down to a railway in the South - ish of England. A case in point was when we had the LNER snowplough (60019) on the Mid Hants - it enabled people who had never seen, or were likely never to see under normal circumstances, an A4 to see and ride behind one. Our Black 5 is proving to be very popular too, despite there being a few around - I suppose for the same reason. Am I missing the point of this thread - are we talking mainly about diesel preservation here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 A case in point was when we had the LNER snowplough (60019) on the Mid Hants - it enabled people who had never seen, or were likely never to see under normal circumstances, an A4 to see and ride behind one. In my case, it allowed a first glance of an A4 pacific in ten years (since the last time SNG had been to the MHR, prior to Bittern's first steaming there). Couldn't agree with you more Phil, on that point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27, 2011 Bittern itself was almost a 'basket case' - we had to lop 12 feet off the front of each mainframe and fabricate new lumps, which included where the cylinders were mounted etc. Even 10 years before this event most preservationists wouldn't have attempted this and the thing would have been left to rot, but loco restoration groups have refined techniques and increased skill levels to the point where tasks once considered impossible, such as this one, can now be carried out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tre pol and pen Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 But then there are some classes that are really "'fit for purpose" as far as preserved lines are concerned- just how useful is a BR standard 2-6-4 tank? there's a lot preserved, but they really are ideal and I bet another dozen would readily find a home on various lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torn-on-the-platform Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 The notion that steam traction is the sole reason for a preserved railway to survive and that only a few enthusiasts want to go and see diesels is always bandied about. Sorry, but I don't agree. Having read most of the posts in this thread, I don't think anyone has suggested that steam engines are the sole draw to a preserved railway. Whilst I would be incredibly disappointed to go to a preserved railway and find only a diesel running, I do appreciate that there are lots of enthusiasts out there who love the things! I was suprised when I joined RMWeb to see quite how many diesel/modern layouts there are. Diesels are obviously very popular within our enthusiast circles. The point that has been made a few times however is that the average family going to a preserved railway is likely to want to see steam in operation. It's different, it's nostalgic, it's like Thomas the Tank. As a child I would have been even more disappointed to see a class 50 sitting at Boscarne Junction rather than Ugly, or a Class 33 instead of Bodmin, than I would be today. It would have REALLY upset me! Especially because Rev. Awdry has instilled in me that diesels are usually evil! Back to the OP, I don't think that having too much stock is anywhere near the top of the list for the challenges facing preservation. If something can be saved and there is somewhere to store then it should be encouraged, even if it doesn't seem like a viable restoration at the time, as already pointed out, we continue to suprise ourselves by returning engines to steam that had been considered 'no hopers' for decades! Once it's gone, it's gone, unless you want to build one from scratch over a couple of decades with a 7 figure bank balance... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I certainly don't want to start a pointless 'steam v diesel debate' but it's a corner which has to be defended. Take the Diesel Traction Group as an example - despite having very few running days on the SVR last year, their pride and joy D821 brought the crowds out after many hours hard work behind the scenes, by people with full time jobs and other commitments, and was very much appreciated by all who rode behind her. I've noticed at many diesel galas in recent years that a lot of younger enthusiasts are paying to see these first generation 'modernisation plan' machines, which to them are probably as old as steam locos are to my generation. As a volunteer on that day I can say it was busy. We need a variety of stock, and much as the non-enthusiast public expect steam many of them will have been around these engines as children, in the same way that older enthusiasts remember steam. My own kids don't really have a preference, they just enjoy the day out. As to the "projects" they love seeing these as much as the working ones. My nephew visited this summer and that was his biggest memory, the yard and the engines there! As a car restorer I have been consistantly amazed at what people have rebuilt, if you look at historic racing cars or WW2 aircraft (both of which are in the engine price bracket!) people rebiuld things from virtually nothing, in the case of aircraft stuff that crashed 60+ years ago to standards stricter than some we work to. This one was restored! I think that as long as we continue to involve young people in our work as preservationists (an area some preserved lines are venturing into commercially) then most railways have a future. In my experience so far it is the sheer enthusuasm and dedication of the people who turn up day in, day out to do hard and demanding work with a smile on their face who keep these places working. So long as they are there, people will visit and money will be there to work on stock. The challenge of the future is to switch the Facebook generation on to working face to face for fun, not face to monitor for money, in their spare time, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The Mid Norfolk Railway is a good example of a preserved railway going it with diesels. I went to their Sulzer Gala last year and it certainly pulled in the crowds having a class 26, 45, 46 and 47 running. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDiesel Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Quick comment re diesels -- I think there is a strong interest / following in diesels, over here in Canada and the U.S., both with the prototype (also heritage railways) and with model railways. I'm such a steam fan that I'm mildly amused by this. Yes, Diesels are interesting & I enjoy watching them and seeing vintage ones. But, to me, a steam loco is at least 3 times as interesting! At some North American model railway shows, you can often see several layouts filled with diesels and only a few with steam engines. As generations get older, I think that people become nostalgic with railways of 20-30 years ago -- that's firmly in the diesel era. Here in Canada, there are now several generations that never lived during the steam era, which ended ca. 1960 here. I think it's a similar trend with pop music. People are now nostalgic over '80s and '90s pop music! To me (at age 51), that time period doesn't seem that long ago at all and I think the music was rather dull compared to the '60s & '70s! Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixteen 12by 10s Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I have just picked up on this thread, so forgive me for coming in at this late stage. As a committee member of a Diesel group, based on an overstocked railway, I think I should have a say. We own and operate, three mainline diesel locos, all of which are in working order, and are used during the summer, to supplement or replace the steam workings. The railway concerned, has just tripled the rent money we pay to remain on site, this now means, that if we do the same amount of paid operating on the railway, we will run at a loss, and will have to call on the members and share holders for support. The point is, that we will service as long as we continue to get support in this way, but with more and more locos entering preservation, the work available, and the enthusiast support, will continue to get “diluted†as time go's by. The big worry, is if something brakes, we are continual, asking for donations for planed jobs, but if things go bang, we then have to hold our hand out again. So to sum things up, railways and owning groups will continue to operate as long as the financial support is available, but its worrying. Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted February 2, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 2, 2011 The Mid Norfolk Railway is a good example of a preserved railway going it with diesels. I went to their Sulzer Gala last year and it certainly pulled in the crowds having a class 26, 45, 46 and 47 running. The problem is that you need crowds 52/52 (ideally), and I think that to attract M,D + 2.4 kids (who, let us remember, keep preserved railways solvent, not enthusiasts) you definitely need more than a few diesels whizzing round. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The market will decide. The market as in people visiting these railways, making donations, and volunteering their time. Or choosing not to. I don't want to name the railway concerned, so let's call it Anoline. I know Anoline quite well and have ridden up and down it many times. I was told a bit back that the overwhelming bulk of Anoline's revenue comes from its steam and diesel galas, the 'Thomas' style events - not necessarily official 'Thomas' events but aimed at kiddies - and the Santa trains. The other 40 or so weeks in the year it just ticks over. (I suspect this means that, if the accounts were properly adjusted, it loses money most weeks.) Now to be honest, I found that quite scary. Because Anoline is an attractive railway with quite a few interesting locos and a fair run for your money. Presumably it wouldn't take that much to scupper it. I don't want to be pessimistic, so I'm just going to say it'll be interesting to see how things work out over the next few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 That depends entirely on the plant. I know of one railway where virtually all of its line extension work (and all the perway work) is being done by volunteers using various sorts of hired and purchased plant and all correctly trained and certificated within the railway plus the risk assessments and method statements done (although they have paid for some of the latter work because they lacked the expertise). Provided a Railway has got the necessary internal competencies and qualifications (extreme example - a boilermaker) there is nothing to stop them taking on apprentices or using their qualified staff to train others under a properly organised training scheme - and legislation provides for them to do exactly that. True there are some instances (e.g. mains electrical work) where an external qualification and assessment is needed but not all that many. I believe (in fact it was a volunteer who told me this) that at the Bluebell railway, if you were to go in to the Signals and Telecommunications department, you would need to be a qualified electrical engineer. So yes what you say is very true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 I believe (in fact it was a volunteer who told me this) that at the Bluebell railway, if you were to go in to the Signals and Telecommunications department, you would need to be a qualified electrical engineer. So yes what you say is very true. You wouldn't need to be a qualified electrical engineer to dig holes for signal posts, hump cable around or hold the signal engineer's hand. There are jobs in all departments on preserved railways for all levels of skill, ability and, dare I say it, intelligence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 You wouldn't need to be a qualified electrical engineer to dig holes for signal posts, hump cable around or hold the signal engineer's hand. There are jobs in all departments on preserved railways for all levels of skill, ability and, dare I say it, intelligence. Quite agree Phil - I can't really see what use being a 'qualified electrical engineer' is for a very large part of most preserved railways' S&T work as not very much of it involves mains electricity although it could clearly be useful to have someone with the appropriate (i.e. industrial not domestic) electrical certification on hand sometimes. Now a 'qualified railway signal engineer' would indeed have his/her uses but even then a lot of the legislative requirement relates to 'competence' and not to 'qualification'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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