E.R.T.M.S.

[Shed]

So what is happening on the Hertford loop?

Why only between Hertford and Langley Junctions?

[Fay Singpoint]

So what is happening on the Hertford loop?

Why only between Hertford and Langley Junctions?

 

It's an ERTMS test site called the Hertford North Integration Facility. A little more info here http://www.imeche.org/Libraries/Events/ERTMS_-_story_of_a_success.sflb.ashx

[Shed]

Cheers for the info.

[ess1uk]

what is this conical thing please?

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

what is this conical thing please?

IMG-20120906-00211.jpg

Stevenage-20120906-00217.jpg

cheers

 

I'll have a tenner on a signal base - as used for the latest in weird looking colour light signals (there are a number of these things now visible in the Reading area - hopefully any chance of snow will have passed before they are commissioned).

[ess1uk]

I'll have a tenner on a signal base - as used for the latest in weird looking colour light signals (there are a number of these things now visible in the Reading area - hopefully any chance of snow will have passed before they are commissioned).

you may claim your tenner

here is a completed one

[Jon Fitness]

you may claim your tenner

here is a completed one

IMG-20131004-01192.jpg

Perfect height to be vandalised too....

JF

[uax6]

I believe that its part of the bi-direction signalling for one of the roads, so that in quiet times the normal trains use this one road, while the NR test 303 trundles back and forth along the other.

 

Andy G

[jeff mcghie]

Awww, look Mummy, a little baby signal just waiting to grow up......

[phil-b259]

Perfect height to be vandalised too....

JF

 

Not to mention being at the wrong height in my opinion.

 

Signal sighting should (and was) done such that the red aspect would be set up so that it would be as close to a drivers eye line as possible. While gradients etc can make a difference the one pictured looks more like its been designed for a driver looking at the floor rather than into the middle distance as they should be (under normal circumstances) when sitting in the cab.

 

Its low height also makes it very susceptible to being obscured by vegetation (which won't be noticed seeing as these signals are "Maintenance free" in official jargon) or even tall track workers walking along the cess (given its height relative to the cabinets)

Edited May 18, 2014 by phil-b259

[Edwin_m]

Low signals tend to be used where there isn't one on a parallel line running in the same direction, so as to reduce confusion for drivers.  Is there another signal on the "right line" out of shot to the left? 

[w124bob]

Just came across this thread ,as an XC driver we've been told to expect ETRMS in about  3 years (less for an area on the Brum Stanstead route) Didcot Reading area for us. I'm not  happy and this thread seems to confirm one of my suspicions. The Voyager fleet has an empty space designed in on the desk for the computer screens etc, however this is below window height, meaning looking down bout 10inches below windscreen level.How can taking your eye of the track constantly (at 125mph) to monitor a screen be deemed to be safe particularly for (rail approved) bifocal wearers. You can't play computer games and watch TV at the same time and take everything in, so I just don't understand how this can be deemed safe. I'll be 55 with 39 years footplate service, this will probably be the final straw for me(and a franchise change) I'm out!

[Reorte]

If that's a problem then will it be HUDs instead some years down the line?

[Fat Controller]

Just came across this thread ,as an XC driver we've been told to expect ETRMS in about  3 years (less for an area on the Brum Stanstead route) Didcot Reading area for us. I'm not  happy and this thread seems to confirm one of my suspicions. The Voyager fleet has an empty space designed in on the desk for the computer screens etc, however this is below window height, meaning looking down bout 10inches below windscreen level.How can taking your eye of the track constantly (at 125mph) to monitor a screen be deemed to be safe particularly for (rail approved) bifocal wearers. You can't play computer games and watch TV at the same time and take everything in, so I just don't understand how this can be deemed safe. I'll be 55 with 39 years footplate service, this will probably be the final straw for me(and a franchise change) I'm out!

I don't honestly think it'll be as soon as that; however, if you have concerns, then make sure they're conveyed both to Virgin and to ASLEF. I should add, however, that ERTMS should, like TVM-based systems, require you to look out of the cab as often, as the information concerning signal aspects and permitted speeds will be displayed in the cab.

To be honest, the ergonomics of the location of the screen in the Voyager fleet seem rather better thought out than those of the Cambrian 158s, where drivers have been asked not to wear white shirts, as the reflected light affects perception of the ERTMS screen..

[ess1uk]

You shouldn't Bob. I've actually driven an ETCS-equipped EMU (several times), although on the regular network with the ATB-STM (system translator module, an interface layer between the physical signals given from the track to the ETCS unit, in our case ATB -> ERTMS) and it's not too bad. It's annoying in the dark (the screens emit light, being LCD screens) but brightness can be altered by the user (i.e. you ) but as I tend to look out anyway, I don't notice/use the screens very much. Note that in this case the onboard ETCS unit operates in Level 1 mode, which is basically a straight forward replacement of whatever was installed before ERTMS was installed. Only in Level 2 and 3 is cab-signalling required. As Brian noted, once on Level 2 (Level 3 is not fully specified yet, IIRC) there are no more signals outside, so observing those is no longer required. However, it's still necessary to observe possible obstructions occurring, so you'd still have to look outside

 

For those who don't know: Level 2 ERTMS basically gives you a speed restriction and the distance from your current location where you must have reached that speed. Blocks are no longer marked by physical signals, but marker boards. These marker boards are effectively equal to a red signal, unless authority has been given to pass it: this is the Movement Authority (MA). Within the MA is defined the location of the track covered by the MA, the specifics (like gradients, radii and length) and the maximum permissible speed, based on the availability of the next blocks. If the MA for a particular block is not received (in time) the target speed will be zero and the train will come to a full stop shortly before the accompanying marker board. It cannot be moved unless authority has been given, either by a valid MA or via controller interference.

 

Here's a YT video of an Austrian train, including an ERTMS section:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InKMNR5rOW0

 

This is from Vienna (Westbahnhof) to St. Pölten, using the NBS (neubaustrecke: new railway line). This NBS uses ERTMS Level 2, the ÖBB Railjet sets used on this route are so equipped and therefore allowed 230 kph (about 145 mph) The interesting part is that from ca 6:45 the train is seen registering itself into ERTMS as it enters a (very) long tunnel and gets authority to run 230 kph. This video is the first of a 3 part series cab rides all the way to Salzburg (for a total of ca 2h15 front seat views of the magnificent Austrian landscape ). (to get to the other parts, open the video in a new window/tab and YT offers you the parts in the "suggestions")

 

HTH!

Thanks for that

[Shed]

has there been any more heard about the Cambrian fault?

[ess1uk]

BigJim has been having problems with ERTMS on the Cambrian

[iands]

BigJim has been having problems with ERTMS on the Cambrian

Jim's problems sound more like loco equipment failures rather than "system" faults as alluded previously, i.e. the TSRs "going walkabout" after a system outage/reset.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Shed]

still worrying that it is failing 

[phil-b259]

still worrying that it is failing 

 

Not really.

 

As with everything computer based, technology continues to race ahead far in excess of the ability of the railway industrys natural product cycle. Its a trait you can see with many consumer electronics these days where after a couple of years all effort is focused on developing 'new' stuff rather than supporting what people already have.

 

Thus I would imagine that quite a lot of the Cambrian installation is (either due to its age, or its status as a pilot project) therefore obsolete / unsupported / bespoke / not being updated / etc. In software terms its like still running Windows 7 say - where apart from security patches the developers have long since moved on to work with more up to date software and hardware....

 

Or it could be a scenario where they are attempting to run new software on older hardware and the system doesn't like it (as with some older i-phones)

[ess1uk]

coming to a line near you soon?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44058298

 

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/millions-set-to-benefit-as-railway-technology-transformation-takes-off/

Edited May 10, 2018 by ess1uk

[E3109]

Only just seen this thread, FWIW they can b*gger off with their silly Klicks, in any case a manager from a different FOC was telling me that a patch for English measurements is available.

 

Giving up miles? Nah, that's like telling the Germans to give up Bratwurst and even as a vegetarian I can see how that would be doomed to failure.

One of the 'industry' mags so beloved of the New Railway Luvvies was promoting km over miles a while back, on the back of ERTMS, their justification was that "well the rest of Europe uses Kim's so why shouldn't we?"

 

The rest of Europe also has a tendency not to assume innocence until proven guilty either.... Maybe a dodgy Rue to go down haha.

 

Perhaps they'd like to take a poll of British train drivers in order to ask which system they prefer working in.

But as recent events have demonstrated, they may not like the result...

[The Stationmaster]

Only just seen this thread, FWIW they can b*gger off with their silly Klicks, in any case a manager from a different FOC was telling me that a patch for English measurements is available.

 

Giving up miles? Nah, that's like telling the Germans to give up Bratwurst and even as a vegetarian I can see how that would be doomed to failure.

One of the 'industry' mags so beloved of the New Railway Luvvies was promoting km over miles a while back, on the back of ERTMS, their justification was that "well the rest of Europe uses Kim's so why shouldn't we?"

 

The rest of Europe also has a tendency not to assume innocence until proven guilty either.... Maybe a dodgy Rue to go down haha.

 

Perhaps they'd like to take a poll of British train drivers in order to ask which system they prefer working in.

But as recent events have demonstrated, they may not like the result...

 

The official measures of distance on Britain's railways are miles, chains and yards and that was agreed at EU level.  thus any change, in order to have legal force, would have to be made at that level although what would happen after Brexit is interesting as it might require primary legislation to revoke teh EU ruling.  And why change anyway, we have a perfectly sensible system of distance measurement which makes sense to everybody in Britain who drives a car or goes walking etc?

 

The 'digital railway' which is basically a phrase from the bullsh*t bingo handbook can be in any sort of units the programmers care to choose and all track speeds, especially at fitting work, are expressed in MPH - are they going to relay all the track as well?

[Reorte]

The official measures of distance on Britain's railways are miles, chains and yards and that was agreed at EU level.  thus any change, in order to have legal force, would have to be made at that level although what would happen after Brexit is interesting as it might require primary legislation to revoke teh EU ruling.  And why change anyway, we have a perfectly sensible system of distance measurement which makes sense to everybody in Britain who drives a car or goes walking etc?

I thought HS1 was all metric (and will HS2 be?)

[phil-b259]

I thought HS1 was all metric (and will HS2 be?)

 

Correct.