D869 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Yup, that's the one! Brilliant - once again you have come up trumps Jim. I really didn't imagine that the posting would actually lead to somebody finding and photographing the original tank almost 40 years after the photo. The retro-fit walkways seem to be attached by bands, presumably to avoid welding or bolting anything to the tank body. If you imagine these removed and ignore the more recent lid then it's pretty much identical to the 1972 photo. At the bottom there appears to be a rectangular frame of steel 'U' section which I think is also a later addition - the lowfit in the 1972 photo hides this part of the tank, but as far as I can see, there isn't enough room for such a beefy frame to be hiding. The only thing that puzzles me slightly is that in the 1972 photo there is a longitudinal square section rib on the tank side between the two lifting lugs. This is on the opposite side from your photo, so maybe it was on one side only or maybe this was another small design variation. Given the efforts made to avoid messing with the tank body, I can't imagine that it has been removed from the example in the photo. Do you think that these tanks were all made by Crump's originally or could they have been made by somebody else and gravitated to Crump's as the maintainer? Any idea of their date of manufacture? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2011 the tanks werent made by crumps only maintained and modified by them, yes the walkways are fitted by straps for ease of removal cant make out what you mean by the beefy frame though, all i can see in my pic is some white plastic shrink wrap in front to the tank that may look like what your describing the reason for the different lid is that originally it would have had a recessed manlid like the one in my other pics but it was replaced in the mid 90s with a standard flat manlid, i remember the old manlids being in the workshops for ages, the tank in the background has a 3rd experimental sprung lid, both types were used succesfully though regards the square section rib, it could well have been for a platform to rest on at the plant, it may have been removed at the time of the walkway additions, possibly just burned off and ground flush? just a theory Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 cant make out what you mean by the beefy frame though, all i can see in my pic is some white plastic shrink wrap in front to the tank that may look like what your describing If you look at the bottom edge of the orange plaque at the side then there seems to be something continuing on the same alignment. To me it looks like a piece of steel 'U' section but I could be wrong. There may also be a parallel section visible on the opposite side. My conclusion was that a frame had been fitted around the base of the tank, perhaps to improve its stability. Anyway, I don't think it was there in 1972 which is what I'm really interested in. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2011 ah yes i see what you mean now yes that tank does have retro fitted a U channel skids, iirc they are in place of the skids that are on the OP picture which were cut away and completly replaced about the same time the tank gained its walkway the tank with the sprung lid has skids that go right round the whole vessel, curving round the dish end too, you can make out the corner of one of them in the bottom left corner of the first picture i posted Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted October 7, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2011 Do you think that these tanks were all made by Crump's originally or could they have been made by somebody else and gravitated to Crump's as the maintainer? Any idea of their date of manufacture? After a bit more digging i can confirm the tanks were made by staveleys for ici. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 After a bit more digging i can confirm the tanks were made by staveleys for ici. Thanks. Would that be 'Stanton and Staveley' who used to have a big works by the M1 near Nottingham?... one of my childhood landmarks for long car journeys that has now disappeared. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 I had an unexpected 'find' today when visiting the King Edward Mine near Camborne for the International Mining Games (free entry and also on tomorrow if anyone fancies popping along). In their shop I was leafing through a 1999 copy of the Journal of the Trevithick Society and spotted the unmistakeable outline of the ducting atop the Hayle Bromine factory staring at me from the page. The photo was part of a detailed article recounting the history of the bromine plant which also includes some details of rail operations. Unbelievably the price tag was just one pound - result! The thing of most relevance to this thread is another photo of a train on North Quay, Hayle. The photo is from the 'rear' of the train which consists of... - a BR standard brake van - two old style chlorine tankers which appear to be in white with horizontal bands - a long wheelbase tanker which appears to be a similar colour to the chlorine tanks but is smaller in diameter so must be a bromine tank - two lowfits with demountable tanks. These are darker in colour than the other tanks in the train, I assume they were grey. - another BR standard brake van - a blue 'Warship' in the earlier livery style with double arrows on each cab side. My first thought was that this was yet another picture of 810 turning up, but 810 was in the later style blue livery in the Hayle photos, so this is almost certainly a different day and a different loco. Unfortunately there is no photo credit or date. The two lowfits are a long way from the camera so it is not possible to see much detail. The furthest tank appears to have a 'corrosive' hazchem symbol taking up most of the tank end, apparently white against the grey body colour of the tank. The lowfits have two different body styles - the furthest has two intermediate strengthening ribs on the body side. The nearest has more - possibly 5. The article suggests that bromine was originally shipped in drums or bottles which is consistent with the lack of bromine tanks in earlier photos. It says that bromine wagons were introduced from 1964 but does not go into any further detail on this question. Apparently the plant originally shipped most of its product as Ethylene Dibromide but stopped producing this in 1968 by which time there was sufficient demand for bromine (and better ways to ship it by rail). Apparently the bromine was sold on the open market by this time, which doesn't provide any clues about where the tanks might have been going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 If I recall correctly, the Octel Amlwch traffic (comprising Cl & EDB wagons) that I worked on: in and out of Ellesmere Port in the late `70s, were run with a dedicated barrier-wagon and brake van at each end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 If I recall correctly, the Octel Amlwch traffic (comprising Cl & EDB wagons) that I worked on: in and out of Ellesmere Port in the late `70s, were run with a dedicated barrier-wagon and brake van at each end. Interesting. As you might see from the start of this thread, there was at least one instance for the Hayle traffic where the bromine tank was next to the loco. Other photos show a ventilated van between the loco and the tanks. The photo I found today is the only one so far with a brake van at both ends. Maybe the rules were changed or maybe it was the fact that (I guess) the Amlwch trains covered a longer distance than the Ponsandane to Hayle wharf trip... or maybe the first photo was showing something that shouldn't have happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I`ve had a quick look and come up with some online pics. of the Amlwch-Ellesmere Port Octel trips. http://www.penmorfa....rchive/one.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 some further progress... I found another photo of the 'lowfit' variety of tank over the past weekend. It is in Strathwood's 'Looking back at the Warships' and shows a train near Liskeard in 1971. The first two vehicles are lowfits with demountable bromine tanks. Then there is a vanwide, then fourth vehicle is an RIV Chlorine tank followed by plenty more vans. Once again, the photo is quite distant from the bromine tanks, so doesnt provide much detail, but it has the big advantage of being in colour. The first tank is mostly hidden behind the loco but it shows clearly that the second tank is painted yellow overall and carries no branding or hazchem markings on the tank or on the lid. It appears to have a vertical information board attached to the side - probably fixed to the transverse supports below the tank. The two lowfits are (again) a mix of types. The first tank is largely obscured, but enough is visible to say that the info panel arrangement appears to be different from the second tank. I suspect that it has a separate info board but that it is smaller and mounted slightly higher because the ends of the cross members are visible and the board appears to be slanted in towards the tank. Both of these arrangements are different from the photo of 'FWB4'. The 1971 photo shows that the train carries the headcode 6C59 (14:50 Ponsandane to Tavistock Jn). The 1972 Ponsandane photo shows a headcode of 6B59 (14:50 Ponsandane to Exeter Riverside), pretty much the equivalent service. Finally, in an off-list email exchange, I have been given the answers to some of my original questions. 'FWB' stands for F.W.Berk and the likely destination for the tank was their facility at St Albans. It occurs to me that this knowledge opens up the possibility of finding photos of these tanks at the other end of their journey or at points in between, but photos of the St Albans area circa 1970 are not something that I can readily lay my hands on. It is possible that the some or all of the other lowfit mounted tanks seen in the three photos may also have belonged to F.W.Berk, but it is clearly true that the branding varied significantly from one tank to another and possibly over time as well, so I would say that this remains unknown at present. So far no clear photos have turned up that allow any branding on the sides of the lowfit mounted tanks to be read, nor indeed the identities of the lowfit wagons. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 I strongly suspect that I chanced on another photo showing a couple of demountable bromine tanks. Not much use for modelling but interesting nevertheless - possibly in the process of a rebuild?. Left hand side in the background. Also shows the corner of a Chas Roberts bulk bromine tank on the right hand side and another Octel vehicle behind the loco. http://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/7692393560/in/photostream/ I also built a model of one since my last post on this thread... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/722/entry-11883-handle-with-care/ Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 28, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2013 ah yes, that picture was in rail express a few months back and was mentioned in another thread by myself, the (human) shunter in the picture was a proper character called terry Villiers, now no longer with us, i recounted some of his tales in the thread i recon the 2 tanks in the picture are the later non recessed manlid type as i photographed for you the other year without their manlids, they are stood one road across from the shotblast bay road so they may well be going in for a blasting, iirc the frame they are standing on is an ex shell 45T tank underframe OR an ex ICI tank frame, one or the other, it survived right up until crumps shut in connahs quay as we used to use it to load the purged bromine iso tanks onto to get them into the workshop, pushing them in by hand!! other waghons in the picture include PCA v tanks in undercoat, probably albright and wilson one's, HTV wagons awaiting converting into a rudd, the bromine tank as mentioned and also the tiger rail curtain sider just above the first Rudd which langushed in the yard for years along with the tiphook piggyback wagon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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