S&DJR 3Fs

[Ian J.]

Following on from my questions in the Bachmann 3F thread, what were the predominant and visible differences between the S&DJR 3Fs, and the hired in Midland ones?

 

(If answers were already given in the other thread, it might be an idea to repeat them here so that the information is in one logical place).

 

Also, which numbers (using the BR numbering scheme) were S&DJR 3Fs?

Edited November 2, 2011 by Ian J.

[buffalo]

OK, Ian, I responded in the other thread before you started this one, so I'll move move my comments here.

 

Responding to CK's post:

Ian, there are detail differences between (some, at least) of the original S&DJR 3Fs and the ex-Midland ones 'drafted in' to the S&D, specifically the sanding gear - if you look at the S&DJR ones (eg. 43216, 43218 etc.), you'll notice an additional operating rod slightly above the reversing lever, which I believe was the sanding gear operating lever. Also, on the ex-S&DJR ones there are some curious 'cup-shaped' sand box apertures, sticking out more or less horizontally from the front sand boxes. Finally, I suspect that some (?all?) that ran on the S&D would have had the Whitakers apparatus fitted (but haven't checked photos yet).

I said:

Fortunately, for those of us who might wish to turn a Bachmann 3F into a post-1920s S&DJR Bulldog, I think these are the main differences, at least for the engine. They appear to date from the 1920s major rebuilds with G7 Belpaire boilers and to be unique to Highbridge. Bradley & Milton note that all the materials were supplied by Derby but all the work was done at Highbridge. A quick look through Essery & Jenkinson vol 4 found no examples of Midland 3Fs with either of these features. The front sandboxes were filled just like the other two through covers in the running plate, and the sanding levers (where visible) were mounted either behind or below the reversing lever. Clearly a case of Highbridge ignoring the official drawings or substituting their own ideas.

 

Bradley & Milton say "Apart from the sanding arrangements and mechanical lubricators these Highbridge G7 rebuilds bore a remarkable resemblance to the genuine Derby article..." I'm a little confused by the mention of lubricators here because they don't give a date for their fitting -- they just say "later" -- and I've only seen Wakefield Silvertown lubricators on both ex-S&DJR and LMS 3Fs in post WWII photos. Presumably, as Bachmann model represents late-LMS and BR forms, we can hope that the lubricator is represented.

 

All of the 3F and 4F photos I've looked at appear to show the Whitaker token catcher mounted only on the left hand side of the tender, unlike the 7Fs which had them on both sides. Presumably no one expected them to run tender-first over those sections controlled by Whitaker gear.

 

The only other possible problem might be with tenders, though as I still can't tell the difference between Johnson 2950 and 3250 gallon tenders, I'll leave that to others to comment on.

 

Nick

 

EDIT: ps. the Midland ones weren't "hired in", they were allocated by the LMS after they took over in 1930.

 

EDIT 2: type of lubricator corrected.

Edited February 3, 2012 by buffalo

[buffalo]

...Also, which numbers (using the BR numbering scheme) were S&DJR 3Fs?

As others may be interested in pre-BR numbers, here are S&D, LMS and BR numbers and withdrawal dates for the Bulldogs:

62, 3194, 43194, 12/60

63, 3198, ----, 12/47

64, 3201, 43201, 4/57

65, 3204, 43204, 9/56

66, 3211, 43211, 6/61

72, 3216, 43216, 8/62

73, 3218, 43218, 4/60

74, 3228, 43228, 10/52

75, 3248, 43248, 8/59

76, 3260, (43260), 9/49

 

Nick

[Combe Martin]

As others may be interested in pre-BR numbers, here are S&D, LMS and BR numbers and withdrawal dates for the Bulldogs:

 

66, 3211, 43211, 6/61

This one intrigues me. I must have just about every S&D picture book 'under the sun', and I've done a huge picture analysis of the lot, and 43211 dosn't appear anywhere, ie .. no published photo's of it on the S&D (well not in BR days). Also, it dosn't appear to have been allocated to any of Bath, Templecombe or Highbridge sheds. What happened to it ?

[Chris Nevard]

I'm guessing for the most of us simply a number change will be enough for the BR era? 216 it will be I guess....

[buffalo]

This one intrigues me. I must have just about every S&D picture book 'under the sun', and I've done a huge picture analysis of the lot, and 43211 dosn't appear anywhere, ie .. no published photo's of it on the S&D (well not in BR days). Also, it dosn't appear to have been allocated to any of Bath, Templecombe or Highbridge sheds. What happened to it ?

According to RailUK, it was allocated to Hasland in 1948 and ended its days at Trafford Park. According to BRDatabase, it was back at Templecombe for a brief period in 1951. There are photos of it as built in 1896 in Bradley & Milton, and in the late 1920s (S&DJR livery, no Wakefield Silvertown lubricator) at Wellow in Stephen Austin's Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway, a View from the Past.

 

Nick

Edited January 5, 2012 by buffalo

[Combe Martin]

So, no good to a late 50s to mid 60s S&D modeller then. I always did think I'd end up with 43216 as it was the last one on the line. Does anyone know if they ventured down to the southern end much. I dont recall seeing any pictures of them down there, certainly not at Bailey Gate.

[bike2steam]

Yesterday, a few of us, at the Town Museum Blandford, were browsing thro' a collection of pics put forward towards our next book on the railway at Blandford, this time we will be focusing on the various loco workings. I was suprised by the number of those taken of 'Bulldogs' on local pick-up freights, with a few taken at the very photogenic spot of Nutford, just north of Blandford, plus one taken on an up local freight stopping at Blandford for water while working tender first.Another pic shows a summer Saturday holiday interegional, double-headed with a 'Bulldog-Armstrong' combination.

Talking of which, in the new S&D calendar for 2012 (May) there is a pic of 43216 leaving Cole on a 2 coach stopping train from Highbridge to Templecombe in June 1962, just 2 months before withdrawal, that was their (it's ?) last regular turn before being replaced by the 'Collet Goods'.

 

I like the avatar Chris, was that before, or after the Halloween party?

Edited November 3, 2011 by bike2steam

[queensquare]

I like the avatar Chris, was that before, or after the Halloween party?

 

Looks to me like it was during!

 

Jerry

[Ian J.]

Does the fifth picture down of 43194 show the extra sand operating rod above the right hand side centre splasher?

 

http://www.newman-family-tree.net/S&D/index.html

 

The tender on it looks identical to the one in the picture that Graham Muz posted on page five of the main 3F thread here, as does that of the real 43216. Only of course on the left hand side the tablet apparatus would be needed. I wonder if a small after-market detail pack might be produced by one of the small manufacturers.

[buffalo]

Does the fifth picture down of 43194 show the extra sand operating rod above the right hand side centre splasher?

http://www.newman-fa.../S&D/index.html

Yes, that's the rod. You can also just see the extended filler on the front sandbox. The latter are better shown in the eigth picture of 43216, which also shows the tablet collector on the left hand side of the tender.

 

The tender on it looks identical to the one in the picture that Graham Muz posted on page five of the main 3F thread here, as does that of the real 43216. Only of course on the left hand side the tablet apparatus would be needed. I wonder if a small after-market detail pack might be produced by one of the small manufacturers.

Well, they look very similar, but all Johnson tenders of this type do! Looking at the model photo it looks like the flat beading strip at the top of the straight part of the side is roughly level with (or slightly above) the similar beading on the cab sides. Now look at the prototype photos you've linked to and you will see that the tender beading is lower than that on the cab side. To me, this suggests that the prototypes have the 2950 gallon tenders whereas the model may be a better representation of the 3250 gallon version. This would (I think) be correct for many ex-Midland engines. The differences are small, only a few inches, and not enough to worry many people. However, as I said before, I'm no expert on these tenders, so I could be wrong.

 

As to the tablet collector, there were a couple of spares with my Bachmann 7F. Is this detail pack available separately?

 

Nick

Edited November 3, 2011 by buffalo

[Ian J.]

Ah, I see what you mean about the height of the tender. A minor difference obviously. Of course, it would 'only' take a new tender top tooling to get that correct, and I suppose it's possible a small supplier could come up with a resin alternative. Unless of course Bachmann decide to do a different tooling at a later date.

 

I have no ideas regarding the availability of the 7F spares parts, I'll have to leave that to someone else to answer.

[Combe Martin]

http://www.newman-fa.../S&D/index.html

A very nice set of pictures and not ones I've seen before.

 

Some of the dates are a bit dubious though, well very actually, well actually just plain wrong !

[bike2steam]

Some of the dates are a bit dubious though, well very actually, well actually just plain wrong !

 

As he was probably relying on memory the dating is not bad, the only really obvious one being 563, and his guess of 1964, all the remaining 2P's were taken out of traffic the same year as the Bulldogs, 1962. My memories from the 1960's can go a bit awry at times.

[Combe Martin]

 

As he was probably relying on memory the dating is not bad, the only really obvious one being 563, and his guess of 1964, all the remaining 2P's were taken out of traffic the same year as the Bulldogs, 1962. My memories from the 1960's can go a bit awry at times.

Well the picture of 53804 is listed as 1964, when it was withdrawn in November 1961 !

[bike2steam]

Well the picture of 53804 is listed as 1964, when it was withdrawn in November 1961 !

 

Yep, yer right, the 3 are grouped together in the same caption as the one I commented on, but to be fair he does say that he's not sure, there again in the great scheme of things - does it matter.

[bike2steam]

This one intrigues me. I must have just about every S&D picture book 'under the sun', and I've done a huge picture analysis of the lot, and 43211 dosn't appear anywhere, ie .. no published photo's of it on the S&D (well not in BR days). Also, it dosn't appear to have been allocated to any of Bath, Templecombe or Highbridge sheds. What happened to it ?

 

http://www.brdatabas...9710&loco=43211

 

Not a rare occurance, a 'paper' transfer, for some better known reason only understood by those responsible.

Edited November 4, 2011 by bike2steam

[buffalo]

Maybe, but the lack of photos might suggest otherwise. In addition to those I mentioned above, the latest I've found shows 3211 at Highbridge in April 1935 (in Arlett & Lockett The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966).

 

Nick

[Combe Martin]

 

Yep, yer right, the 3 are grouped together in the same caption as the one I commented on, but to be fair he does say that he's not sure, there again in the great scheme of things - does it matter.

Yes I know, I'm being 'picky', but I like to get things right because I don't want the 'less well informed' to get the wrong impression.

[Chris Nevard]

 

Looks to me like it was during!

 

Jerry

 

Correct! All back to normal now ;-)

[Combe Martin]

Well, they look very similar, but all Johnson tenders of this type do! Looking at the model photo it looks like the flat beading strip at the top of the straight part of the side is roughly level with (or slightly above) the similar beading on the cab sides. Now look at the prototype photos you've linked to and you will see that the tender beading is lower than that on the cab side. To me, this suggests that the prototypes have the 2950 gallon tenders whereas the model may be a better representation of the 3250 gallon version. This would (I think) be correct for many ex-Midland engines. The differences are small, only a few inches, and not enough to worry many people. However, as I said before, I'm no expert on these tenders, so I could be wrong.

Having read the above about the height of the sides of the various Johnson tenders and how to recognise the difference, I've investigated this a bit more and picked the brains of those who have a far greater knowledge about this than me. There are other differences and also a 2750 gallon tender as well. The tank of the 3250 gallon is 7'1" wide, the 2950 is 6'7" wide and the 2750 is 6'1" wide. The 2750 also has 'outboard' rear lamp irons too.

 

Having worked out how to recognise the tender size (principly the sides top beading height, and tank width compared against the cab width), I've studied all the pictures containing 3Fs in all my S&D books (more than 40), and produced an analysis of what tender size was attached to each loco and when in BR days.

 

I've found the following :

 

The 2950 gallon was fitted to 43194, 43216, and 43248.

The 3250 gallon was fitted to 43218, 43427, 43436, and 43682.

 

These are all Templecombe locos.

 

There are occasional pictures of other locos, but these are mainly before the mid 50s to mid 60s period.

 

Occasionally there would have been tender swops, but the pictures suggest that mainly these wern't with tenders of a different size.

It's possible that in 1951, 43218 hauled a 2750 gallon tender, and so did 43216 in 1958, but these seem to have been the exception.

 

What all this means, is that if you were going to renumber the new Bachmann 3F as an S&D loco, you have to be carefull about which one you pick (and don't forget the sand box filler differences that were mentioned earlier too). Unfortunately, it seems that 'old faithfull' 43216 is a definite 'no no'. If you want a 'long life' loco as I do, then 43682 being also withdrawn in September 1962 is the best bet !

 

As I said earlier, these conclusions are the result of my analysis of published pictures that I've found (lots), so can't be taken as absolute 'Gospal', but I think they're fairly certain. If anyone wants some details of picture references, I can give them.

[buffalo]

Having read the above about the height of the sides of the various Johnson tenders and how to recognise the difference, I've investigated this a bit more and picked the brains of those who have a far greater knowledge about this than me. There are other differences and also a 2750 gallon tender as well. The tank of the 3250 gallon is 7'1" wide, the 2950 is 6'7" wide and the 2750 is 6'1" wide. The 2750 also has 'outboard' rear lamp irons too.

 

Many thanks for tracking down this information. Knowing the widths does appear to make it somewhat easier to distinguish the different tenders in those photos where the top of the running plate or the relationship between cab and tank width is visible.

 

In the meantime, I've also been doing some burrowing in my books. There is a short section on Midland tenders buried in the middle of Essery & Jenkinson An Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, vol 4. On the Johnson tenders, they say nothing about tank widths, but do give heights of the side panels as follows:

2350 gal. 3'3"

2750 and 2950 gal. 3'7" to 3'8"

3250 and 3500 gal. 3'11" to 4' 2"

They also mention that "...it was considerably less common for the Class 3 engines to be paired with anything other than 3250 or 3500 gallon tenders." They then mention the S&DJR engines as an exception, and in chapter 9 they claim that all of these had 2750 gallon tenders. This conflicts with Bradley & Milton who say that they had 2950 gallon tenders from their 1920s rebuilds.

 

The 2950 gallon was fitted to 43194, 43216, and 43248.

The 3250 gallon was fitted to 43218, 43427, 43436, and 43682.

Those with smaller tenders are all ex-S&D engines so I would expect them to have smaller tenders (bearing in mind the above conflict, 2750 or 2950). Similarly, 43427, 43436, and 43682 were all ex-Midland engines so the 3250 (or 3500) gallon size is again to be expected. The odd one out there is 43218 which, like the other S&DJR Bulldogs had received a smaller tender back in the 1920s.

 

It's possible that in 1951, 43218 hauled a 2750 gallon tender, and so did 43216 in 1958, but these seem to have been the exception.

Yes, armed with your width figures, I've found a few photos of these engines at these dates that appear to show a significantly narrower tender.

 

What all this means, is that if you were going to renumber the new Bachmann 3F as an S&D loco, you have to be carefull about which one you pick (and don't forget the sand box filler differences that were mentioned earlier too). Unfortunately, it seems that 'old faithfull' 43216 is a definite 'no no'. If you want a 'long life' loco as I do, then 43682 being also withdrawn in September 1962 is the best bet !

Yes, it would be a good choice, but 43682 was an ex-Midland import, not an S&DJR Bulldog, so there may be no need to change anything other than the number on the model. However, a couple of features of the model tender, as seen here, need checking against photos even for these (as far as I can see 43682 had both in the late fifties). These are the coal plate behind the tooboxes and the forward projection of the lower half of the side plate at the front. The coal plate does not appear to have been common on the tenders used on the S&DJR. One example with it was behind 3260 (formerly S&DJR 76) when it fell into the South Drain in 1949, so that's another example of a Bulldog with an ex-Midland tender. The forward projection seems to me to be a lat feature of the larger tenders. Maybe the model represents a 3500 gallon tender?

 

btw. Its not just the sandbox filler. Normal Midland 3Fs do not appear to have had front sandboxes at all, just the pair for the central drivers.

 

Nick

Edited November 8, 2011 by buffalo

[Combe Martin]

I've a few comments to add in answer to Nick's piece above ....

 

Yes, 43218 being an ex S&D Bulldog is the 'odd one out' in having the 3250 gallon tender attached after the early '50s. Just to make sure, I've double checked my photo references, the best ones are :

 

The S&D Railway 1935-1966 by Mike Arlett & David Lockett

Page 69 dated 10.51 shows it with a very narrow tender which I think is a 2750 gallon. The 'outboard' rear lamp bracket is just visible.

 

The S&D An English Cross Country Railway by Ivo Peters

Plate 218 dated 4.55 (a bit dull but) shows it with the much wider and taller 3250 tender (the tender beading is level with the cab beading).

Plate 164 dated 6.57 again shows the wider tender being flush with the cab side.

 

Steam on the S&D by GA Richardson - Bradford Barton

Page 80 dated 1958 again shows the wider tender being flush with the cab side.

 

Regarding the period I've been looking at, this is the BR era and mostly from the mid '50s onward because there are fewer good photos from before then and this is the period I model.

 

I wasn't trying to claim that 43682 and all the other locos I've mentioned were ex S&D Bulldogs, but just that they were 3Fs allocated to the S&D.

 

The coal plate that Nick mentions seems to be a feature of the 3250 gallon tender which I hadn't spotted before and isn't on the smaller tenders. Also, on the smaller tenders the front end of the coal rails tapers down to the tender side flared top matching the rear end, whereas on the larger tender it is 'squared off' where it meets and joins the coal plate. This seems to be a far easier way of spotting the difference between the large and smaller tender (but can't be applied to 4F tenders).

 

The forward projection on the front end of the tender sides seems to be present on both small and large tenders.

 

A good photo of the 2750 gallon tender showing the 'outboard' rear lamp brackets is plate 196 of Ivo Peters Vol 1 dated 8.54

 

Bachmann's publicity material was saying that the tender modelled is the 3250 gallon version.

 

And finally, Bachmann seem to have got the shape of the front and middle splashers wrong at the leading edge of where they join the running plate. They should 'flow into it' with a curve !, or am I being just 'picky' ?

[devonseasider]

 

 

btw. Its not just the sandbox filler. Normal Midland 3Fs do not appear to have had front sandboxes at all, just the pair for the central drivers.

 

 

 

 

About 30 years ago I built a 3F from an MPD kit and came to exactly that same conclusion regarding the differences in sanding gear between S&D and standard locos. I remember trawling through lots of photographic references at the time.

 

Graham

[buffalo]

I've a few comments to add in answer to Nick's piece above ....

We've been looking at much the same pictures.

 

I wasn't trying to claim that 43682 and all the other locos I've mentioned were ex S&D Bulldogs, but just that they were 3Fs allocated to the S&D.

Yes, I realise that, but the thread started with Ian asking about converting the model into a differences between the model and a Bulldog, so I just mentioned it to avoid confusion.

 

The coal plate that Nick mentions seems to be a feature of the 3250 gallon tender which I hadn't spotted before and isn't on the smaller tenders. Also, on the smaller tenders the front end of the coal rails tapers down to the tender side flared top matching the rear end, whereas on the larger tender it is 'squared off' where it meets and joins the coal plate. This seems to be a far easier way of spotting the difference between the large and smaller tender (but can't be applied to 4F tenders).

Yes, I think you are right as I've only found the coal plates on the larger tenders. Incidentally, as you mention 4Fs, plate 58 in Ivo Peters' English Cross-Country Railway shows an ex-Midland one in 1950 with what we seem to agree is a 3250 gallon tender (though with tall vents) instead of their more usual 3500 gallon Fowler-built Johnson type.

 

The forward projection on the front end of the tender sides seems to be present on both small and large tenders.

Yes, it is there on most in the BR era, though rare on pre-war tenders. I'm not sure when these were added.

 

Bachmann's publicity material was saying that the tender modelled is the 3250 gallon version.

That's useful to know, and believable from the photos.

 

And finally, Bachmann seem to have got the shape of the front and middle splashers wrong at the leading edge of where they join the running plate. They should 'flow into it' with a curve !, or am I being just 'picky' ?

I'm not so sure about this, many photos show quite a sharp angle with no hint of a radius. Others, where it looks like there might be a curve, are misleading because the effect is really that of the flat beading either on the splasher or on the running plate. The frame shape between the splashers also seems to lead the eye to believe there is a curve.

 

Nick

Edited November 9, 2011 by buffalo