Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[jamie92208]

The telephoto effect does do that. Driving north near Ulleskelf they looked nothing like that from the side.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

I also took this one whilst I was at Colton just to show the contrast between the two styles of OHLE.

New

Older

Taken from the same spot.

 

Jamie

Edited April 8, 2022 by jamie92208

[woodenhead]

Given the wind yesterday, the new one's look more future proofed, the old ones were done on the cheap

[TheSignalEngineer]

Headspan wires for holding the arms on four-track lines were an absolute disaster in my opinion. They were a cheap and nasty solution which stored up future problems. OK for hanging tram wires from buildings along city streets but no good for high speed running in open country.

[jamie92208]

Insane ways the new ones look to be built to the same sort of spec as the ones on Woodhead. Obviously with different design criteria but if you look at the gantriesbetween Guide Bridge and Piccadily they are massive. Also with either the new design or gantries you don't bring all 4 lines of OHLE down if there is a problem.

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

16 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Insane ways the new ones look to be built to the same sort of spec as the ones on Woodhead. Obviously with different design criteria but if you look at the gantriesbetween Guide Bridge and Piccadily they are massive. Also with either the new design or gantries you don't bring all 4 lines of OHLE down if there is a problem.

 

Jamie

The only thing that could bring the wires down on Woodhead was the government.

 

Badum Tish

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think the gantries on Woodhead must have been designed to withstand a direct hit from a 50-wagon coal train. I understand that many of the same team worked on the design for the original Manchester/Liverpool to Euston electrification.

Signal gantries have gone through a similar cycle. The ones from the 1950s were generally quite large. by the late 1960s we were putting up much simpler ones containing about half as much metal. Along came the oilmen imported into Railtrack by the Government to show us how a railway should be run. Their specification for signal gantries called for a minimum service life of 50 years and the capability of withstanding a mid-winter North Sea storm without distortion. All very nice, even though our old designs were perfectly adequate. I don't recall any from that era falling over in service and many still standing after 60 years. Meanwhile, the cost and build time quadrupled overnight and we put up structures that were strong enough for mooring a supertanker.

[62613]

11 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Insane ways the new ones look to be built to the same sort of spec as the ones on Woodhead. Obviously with different design criteria but if you look at the gantriesbetween Guide Bridge and Piccadily they are massive. Also with either the new design or gantries you don't bring all 4 lines of OHLE down if there is a problem.

 

Jamie

The Woodhead gantries would be taking a heavier conductor, wouldn't they? Even on the double - track sections, the masts are of the goalpost type, but of smaller section (the stanchions are 6" x 6" UC)

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by 62613

[Titan]

11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Their specification for signal gantries called for a minimum service life of 50 years and the capability of withstanding a mid-winter North Sea storm without distortion. All very nice, even though our old designs were perfectly adequate. I don't recall any from that era falling over in service and many still standing after 60 years. 

 

There have been a few, OK not a gantry but an old signal falling over none the less.

 

RAIB Newbury report

 

 

[Edwin_m]

50 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

There have been a few, OK not a gantry but an old signal falling over none the less.

 

RAIB Newbury report

 

 

There was another one in South Wales too, but I think the cause was corrosion not inadequate design.  A heavier structure may take longer to rust through, but its weight means there will be more forces acting so it takes less degradation before it is vulnerable to collapse.  

[Fat Controller]

On 18/02/2022 at 22:08, jamie92208 said:

The telephoto effect does do that. Driving north near Ulleskelf they looked nothing like that from the side.

 

Jamie

Aren't the heavier structures there because it's a junction?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

 

There have been a few, OK not a gantry but an old signal falling over none the less.

 

RAIB Newbury report

 

 

But hardly an 'old' signal by even today's standards.  There are still some straight post signals on the GWML where the posts were installed as early as 1960 (signals commissioned early 1961) and quite a few dating from 1963 through to 1970/71.  But they are all to the normal WR design and not the 'standard' style used at Newbury, and elsewhere in the Berks & Hants resignalling.  

 

And there are probably still some straight post signals from the 1960s on the WCML and plenty around the country from the early-mid 1970s.

 

And at one time signal structure design' seemed to go the other way.  in connection with the signal alterations for Paddington - Heathrow electrification a rather spindly looking gantry witha long extension to the Up side of the northernmost leg was erected just east of the overbridge at Westbourne Park.  on seeing I reckon you would have had a job working out what it was for although uit looked as if it was probably meant for signal heads,  A four aspect head was the first to be installed on the structure - on the extreme north end of it - and as the crane, or whatever, was relieved of the load the gantry began to bend under the weight of the signal head  which had to be removed PDQ.   It was the only gantry of that type to appear so maybe the ghost of IKB was whispering 'a good job it bent as I was just about to build anther 6 just like it'.   What appeared next - and are there to this day  - are gantry structures of the sort described by 'Signal Engineer' - so massive as to be almost unbelievable.

[jamie92208]

53 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Aren't the heavier structures there because it's a junction?

I think it's all to do with it being four tracked and using twin track cantilevers on both sides to do two tracks with each and avoiding using full gantries.

 

Jamie

 

 

[SHMD]

The gantries just installed at Mills Platting seem just as substantial.

(Four lines splitting into two lines of two at the junction.)

 

 

Kev.

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, jamie92208 said:

I think it's all to do with it being four tracked and using twin track cantilevers on both sides to do two tracks with each and avoiding using full gantries.

 

Jamie

 

 

The current standard designs include structures for just about any situation you can think off, even on multiple track layouts and some have different purposes as well.  For example in Jamie's photo the gantry structure with. the holes in the beam is used to carry tensioners and/or the other end of catenary sections so needs t be more substantial than the structures which only carry the catenary support arms.

 

The photos below show one in finished condition (no detail) and a close up of one during installation work.

 

 

 

 

This structure is on quadruple track but this type was used where full length gantries were not needed ot where the foundations were too far apart to allow a reasonable depth of girder structure

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, Titan said:

 

There have been a few, OK not a gantry but an old signal falling over none the less.

 

RAIB Newbury report

 

 

Yes, I've seen a few straight posts go, but not a gantry. It was usually due to inadequate inspection for corrosion especially on coastal likes or by industrial sites like gasworks or chemical plants. In the 1970s we started using a grade of pipe meant for underwater parts of North Sea oil rigs. I think a lot of those are still standing.

An interesting failure I did have on a gantry was corrosion of a foundation fixing bolt at the base plate of one leg. Our method of installation was to apply pitch to the top of the concrete and up the bolt thread to just above the base plate. When the gantry was being put up the bolts would be greased before putting the nuts on then after everything was tight  the nuts and protruding part of the bolts wrapped with Denso tape for protection.  In this particular case none of this had been done.

The gantry was being taken down due to some layout alterations so the gang were sent to loosen and retighten each nut in turn a few days before so they would come out easily on the weekend. One nut was found to be badly corroded and when the fitter tried to shift it the bolt sheared off at the top of the concrete. Panic "What  the **** do we do now?" call to me. 

[62613]

20 hours ago, SHMD said:

The gantries just installed at Mills Platting seem just as substantial.

(Four lines splitting into two lines of two at the junction.)

 

 

Kev.

The gantry at the East end of Stalybridge station isn't exactly lightweight!

[SHMD]

31 minutes ago, 62613 said:

The gantry at the East end of Stalybridge station isn't exactly lightweight!

 

True, I should have a picture of it somewhere.

(It will be too dark and wet to get one one the way home tonight.)

 

 

Kev.

[Edwin_m]

Some very light gantries have been used where someone has decided maintenance access is infrequent enough not to need ladders and walkways.  Presumably they close the line and use a road-rail cherrypicker when necessary.  Where walkways are needed, I suspect the wind loadings etc have been subjected to rather generous margins of safety, resulting in the "supertanker moorings".  

[The Stationmaster]

39 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

Some very light gantries have been used where someone has decided maintenance access is infrequent enough not to need ladders and walkways.  Presumably they close the line and use a road-rail cherrypicker when necessary.  Where walkways are needed, I suspect the wind loadings etc have been subjected to rather generous margins of safety, resulting in the "supertanker moorings".  

Yes - there are some of these in the Thames Valley and presumably the signal aspect(s) don't need any sort of cleaning because there is no way at all of reaching them without a cherry-picker.

 

I saw a very interesting arrangement in Amsterdam back in the late 1990s where fibre optics were used for the signal aspects and all the 'working' parts were mounted down on the gantry legs with fibre optics connecting them to the lens unit.  Rather outdated by now but definitely 'something different' back then. 

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes - there are some of these in the Thames Valley and presumably the signal aspect(s) don't need any sort of cleaning because there is no way at all of reaching them without a cherry-picker.

 

Some of the more recently installed LED signals now have 5 year gaps between scheduled maintenance visits - and of course the upcoming slashing of NRs maintenance workforce is based on not doing any maintenance on anything, with remote condition monitoring expected to tell techs it’s going to fail.

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, Edwin_m said:

Some very light gantries have been used where someone has decided maintenance access is infrequent enough not to need ladders and walkways.  Presumably they close the line and use a road-rail cherrypicker when necessary.  Where walkways are needed, I suspect the wind loadings etc have been subjected to rather generous margins of safety, resulting in the "supertanker moorings".  

 

The recently installed one have no ladders and behave as many street lights do and are hinged to lower them for maintenance!

[SHMD]

Here is the large signalling gantry, half way between the eastern end of platform 3 and Cocker Hill tunnel entrance.

The Cocker Hill's tunnel vent/access shaft is clearly visible just below the middle "F" on the OFF signal.

The Trans Pennine Express class185101, 2E83 (on time), has just passed the UDM signal with the green and feather still showing.

 

I'm not saying the gantry is big but it is visible from space!

(Okay, not necessarily accurate - it's actually Google Maps.)

 

Here's the view from the Pelican Crossing on Market Street, (visible from the "Maps" view above).

It looks like the gantry is already compatible with the equipment/clearances necessary for the immanent arrival of the OLE.

Here 802201, forming the 9M30 17:04 (11 minutes down) service to Liverpool, is routed via the path/line "UHU/UA" towards Manchester Victoria.

(It arrived at its final destination on time.)

 

Does anyone know what the Signal names/paths "DH", "UDM" and "UH" mean?

(I've already worked out D=down and U=up, but I haven't foggiest as to what H or M stand for!)

 

 

Kev.

 

 

Kev.

 

[iands]

18 minutes ago, SHMD said:

Here is the large signalling gantry, half way between the eastern end of platform 3 and Cocker Hill tunnel entrance.

The Cocker Hill's tunnel vent/access shaft is clearly visible just below the middle "F" on the OFF signal.

The Trans Pennine Express class185101, 2E83 (on time), has just passed the UDM signal with the green and feather still showing.

 

I'm not saying the gantry is big but it is visible from space!

(Okay, not necessarily accurate - it's actually Google Maps.)

 

Here's the view from the Pelican Crossing on Market Street, (visible from the "Maps" view above).

It looks like the gantry is already compatible with the equipment/clearances necessary for the immanent arrival of the OLE.

Here 802201, forming the 9M30 17:04 (11 minutes down) service to Liverpool, is routed via the path/line "UHU/UA" towards Manchester Victoria.

(It arrived at its final destination on time.)

 

Does anyone know what the Signal names/paths "DH", "UDM" and "UH" mean?

(I've already worked out D=down and U=up, but I haven't foggiest as to what H or M stand for!)

 

 

Kev.

 

 

Kev.

 

Hi Kev,

 

DH = Down Huddersfield,

UH = Up Huddersfield,

U&DM = Up and Down Middle Line.

 

HTH.

[4630]

13 hours ago, SHMD said:

 

It looks like the gantry is already compatible with the equipment/clearances necessary for the immanent arrival of the OLE.

 

Here 802201, forming the 9M30 17:04 (11 minutes down) service to Liverpool, is routed via the path/line "UHU/UA" towards Manchester Victoria.

(It arrived at its final destination on time.)

 

Does anyone know what the Signal names/paths "DH", "UDM" and "UH" mean?

(I've already worked out D=down and U=up, but I haven't foggiest as to what H or M stand for!)

 

 

Kev.

 

 

Kev.

 

 

The gantry was installed when the track layout and platforms were re-configured, I can’t recall the exact date, but within the last 5-10* years.  The installation specifically anticipated future OLE.

 

DH = Down Huddersfield

UH = Up Huddersfield

UDM = Up and Down Middle  - the line serves platform 3 which is bi-directional.  
 

I hope that helps. 

 

Subsequent edit to add additional information

 

* The work at Stalybridge commenced in April 2012 and was scheduled to be completed in November 2012.

 

Details are in this Network Rail press release here.  The release also references, in paragraph 2, the electrification of the line from Manchester in 2016.  That didn't stand the test of time very well.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by 4630
To add additional information.