The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[Banger Blue]

From www.WNXX.com

 

60009 (WNTR) has been stopped at Immingham and 60071 (WNTR) has been stopped at Toton. 60035 (WNTR) is currently at Bescot en route to Toton from Warrington. Still 'stored but active' are 60011 60022 60039 60040 60045 60049 60063 60073 and 60085 (all WNTR) running alongside 60041 (WCAI) 60051 (WCBI) 60084 (WCAI) and 60096 (WCBM) pending elimination of the Class. The four DBS business sectors have been asked to identify alternative methods for the operation for trains currently hauled by Class 60 locomotives to enable the total withdrawal of the Class 60.

Not good news for all the tug fans out there. Edited June 8, 2015 by Banger Blue

[Shedmaster]

Not good news indeed............

 

I wonder if they will scrap them and if we'll see the mass followings now such as we saw with the Deltics at 'The Cross'.........with BBC news coverage and some anoraked dope in front of the camera going "Errrr....3100hp in your right hand, oh yes, and a proper engine too, and errr, oh yes it's yellow at the end, (thats where the Driver sits! ) and errrr........where's my tissues"

 

Has anybody seen that particular video on YouTube.....? Was That You ?????????

 

I'll miss driving the 60's certainly but to be positive, at least we've got the new 'Fuglies' to ease the pain..........maybe..........I think they sound fantastic !!!!

 

Dave

[S.A.C Martin]

I wonder if one could be earmarked for the national collection?

[Welly]

^^^

As the last main line diesel class to be designed and built in UK?

[Piemanlarger]

how long beofre drs etc start buying them?

['CHARD]

how long beofre drs etc start buying them?

Unless by some wave of a magic wand there's a complaint from would-be purchasers upheld by the OFT, then I expect to see 60s in DRS and other liveries some time after hell has frozen over.

[S.A.C Martin]

^^^

As the last main line diesel class to be designed and built in UK?

 

Yes, precisely.

 

I'm a little unclear as to why they've been withdrawn - aren't they a very reliable class of d/e (I certainly thought that)?

[Supaned]

I think the issue with the 60s is much the same as the 58s , namely they are becoming due for a major and costly overhaul.

 

As traffic levels have declined significantly , there simply isn't a business case to spend money for the handful of services that really do need the type of haulage power that only a 60 can provide.

 

Naturally, should a lucrative foreign contract arise, no doubt they will be re-activated with a swanky paintjob and give sterling service , as have the supposedly life-expired 58s

 

Despite ORR rules regarding sale of surplus assets , these seem to be ignored, and the locos will undoubtedly sit rotting away until they are too far gone to be of any use and then sold for scrap.

[big T]

Get em in while you can gents!

[big T]

Yes, precisely.

 

I'm a little unclear as to why they've been withdrawn - aren't they a very reliable class of d/e (I certainly thought that)?

 

Lots of reasons, but high engine hours, maintainence issues and leggies out of bed don't help

['CHARD]

I would expect that they will be left in the elements for some time until Gremlin and Tin Worm infestation puts them beyond economic repair and only then will tendering for sale take place. It seems to have been an EWS tactic before on occasions.

I wonder..... Given the somewhat more visionary outlook that Lord Adonis is wont to stress to the industry, maybe he would take a different view if complaint is vociferous enough. Just maybe...

[59004 ( was Shedcombe....)]

Hi,

 

The 60's are owned by DBS.

Stored in yards they own as well costs them nothing.

The storage has been planned for some time now.

They may well be taken out of storage when traffic volumes pick up and/or when they have the money available and are willing to spend it on expensive overhauls.

 

The DBS 66's are all leased.

Without knowing the terms in the lease contract, we can only speculate, but they either can't hand 66's back without being charged extra or the cost of keeping the 66's running is cheaper as keeping the 60's running.

There are many 66's in France, and these were all to come back with 77's taking their places, but if this is still about to happen, who knows.

 

Downturn in traffic is huge.

 

Freightliner has already transferred 66582, 66583, 66584, 66586 and 66625 to FL Poland and more are rumoured to go.

The 30 loco's Class 70 are about to be split over UK ( 20 ) and Poland ( 10 ).

With the first 6 70's entering traffic, 66573, 66574 and 66578-66581 are about to be handed back to the lease company.

It's rumoured that FL is handing back a total of 30 66's !!!!

 

It's also rumoured that DRS is to hand back ALL it's 66's, as they have no real work for them.

 

 

I don't see where 60's, if put up for sale, would be wanted.

 

 

 

Regards, Michel

[Glorious NSE]

I still agree that DRS has way more loco's than it needs - but I still say that's always been the case and it's apparently never bothered them much before?

 

And no real work for 66's? Ask Malcolm, Asda, Tate & Lyle etc whether they want 40 year old traction instead of a nice 99% reliable modern unit on their anglo Scottish intermodals.

 

 

[59004 ( was Shedcombe....)]

Martyn,

 

I merely quoted what I read elsewhere. DRS did loose some dedicated 66 traffic already. Similarly as Fastline lost/cancelled its 56 work really.

 

The overall picture is just not good, even if it "only" means less 66's to be bored by. B)

 

 

Regards, Michel

[reevesthecat]

Sorry slightly off topic but why are freightliner giving up later build class 66 ,I would have thought the early ones 66501 etc first.Also what are the class 77 mentioned by 59004

cheers

mark

[John M Upton]

Sorry slightly off topic but why are freightliner giving up later build class 66 ,I would have thought the early ones 66501 etc first.Also what are the class 77 mentioned by 59004

cheers

mark

 

A guess here but probably because the later sries 66's have smaller fuel tanks and therefore simply do not have the range that some Freightliner services require, it was an issue that had the operators grumbling when they were first introduced with 66951 and 66952, the reduction in fuel tank size/capacity being forced upon them due to new build from a certain date needed to be complaint to some new emmissions regs and the equipment therefore required needing the space (also the reason for the extra fifth bodyside door).

 

The 77's reffered to are I think the Euro Cargo Rail European '66's' about which things seem to have gone very quiet!! There have not been any reported deliveries of what was supposed to be a huge order on ages and I can't actually recall seeing many (lately - if any) pictures of them actually doing any work on the continent.

[Shedmaster]

Can anybody kindly explain please......this is seen as relevant to the O.P, my apologies if others disagree..........

 

I've heard complaints from various industry individuals, some who run rival freight firms, about the fact that EWS/DBS wont sell their 60's.

 

In previous years there have been issues with the way EWS disposes of it's hardware such as Loco's that THEY OWN, and competitors have gone running off crying to the rail regulator to complain about this, the result being that EWS got slapped wrists and were told they HAD to make Loco's available for sale to competitors etc and were not allowed to just scrap them.

 

Well, how the hell does that work ?

 

I buy my car and I now own it.........it's up to me if I want to scrap it on the day of first registration if I so choose, it's MY car, so, as long as it's paid for, maintained and then disposed of in a non-hazardous manner, I can do what I like with it.

 

Well, the same with EWS/DBS. They OWN the Class 60, as they did with previous classes, why is it an issue what they do with vehicles that EWS/DBS actually OWN and then decide they don't need ?

 

I don't wanna see them sitting around rotting but then if they wanted to melt them all down and sell the metal, why not...........THEY OWN THEM.

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....The 30 loco's Class 70 are about to be split over UK ( 20 ) and Poland ( 10 )....

If reports are correct, Class 70 production has stopped.

The first six are all delivered; the next six are said to be due later next year (sep/oct/nov ? ).

Production of the remaining 18 has been deferred until further notice, i.e. if and when traffic picks up again. That may not be until 2012 or later.

 

I still agree that DRS has way more loco's than it needs - but I still say that's always been the case and it's apparently never bothered them much before? .....

Is that because as a state owned company they aren't as worried about "certain parts" of the balance sheet as the other FOC's ?

 

.

[60maniac]

I don't no if this has already been posted but it is rumered that the last of the 60s in serivce and will be turned of at toton for the last time on sunday

[59004 ( was Shedcombe....)]

Sorry slightly off topic but why are freightliner giving up later build class 66 ,I would have thought the early ones 66501 etc first.Also what are the class 77 mentioned by 59004

cheers

mark

 

A guess here but probably because the later sries 66's have smaller fuel tanks and therefore simply do not have the range that some Freightliner services require, it was an issue that had the operators grumbling when they were first introduced with 66951 and 66952, the reduction in fuel tank size/capacity being forced upon them due to new build from a certain date needed to be complaint to some new emmissions regs and the equipment therefore required needing the space (also the reason for the extra fifth bodyside door).

 

The 77's reffered to are I think the Euro Cargo Rail European '66's' about which things seem to have gone very quiet!! There have not been any reported deliveries of what was supposed to be a huge order on ages and I can't actually recall seeing many (lately - if any) pictures of them actually doing any work on the continent.

 

Hi,

 

There's likely a myriad of reason for choosing these loco's :

 

The engine hours / how far off expensive maintenance/overhaul.

Where the lease contract is. How long it still runs ( recently renewed ? ).

The different lease cost over the different batches/ages.

The better re-lease value of the younger ones, and linked prices for keeping the older ones.

Availability, reliability, consistency of type/version/specs.

The fuel range of the older batches is better indeed.

 

Reasons for the chosen loco's going to Poland are :

 

Build at a similar time as the original Polish loco's.

Same components/versions/age/overhaul dates.

They are all of the HSBC lease fleet and of the self-lubricating variant.

 

---------------------

 

The 77's are indeed the Euro Cargo Rail 66's.

There will come 60 in total.

It's a 2006 order, but it's taking ages for them to come all over.

 

77001-77044 have now been build.

 

In France are :

 

77001-77004

77006

77008-77010

77012

77014

77017

77019

 

In the Netherlands at Nedtrain Tilburg ( for final assembly / fitting out with [ safety ] equipment, and/or stored awaiting delivery ) are :

 

77005 ( tested in Belgium once, in Germany twice ),

77007

77011

77013

77015

77018

77020 ( tested in Germany once )

77023-77033

77035-77044

 

Still temporarily parked at Rotterdam Docks, before going to Tilburg are :

 

77016

77021

77022

77034

 

 

It's indeed quiet on the 77's front, production wise, final assembly wise, and useage wise.

 

 

 

Regards, Michel

[BernardTPM]

They OWN the Class 60, as they did with previous classes, why is it an issue what they do with vehicles that EWS/DBS actually OWN and then decide they don't need ?

 

I don't wanna see them sitting around rotting but then if they wanted to melt them all down and sell the metal, why not...........THEY OWN THEM.

 

As the last BR diesel class (and for the time being, the last British-built large main-line diesel locos) they are part of this country's heritage. At the very least 60001 should be donated to the NRM.

[LaGrange]

Not good news indeed............

 

I wonder if they will scrap them and if we'll see the mass followings now such as we saw with the Deltics at 'The Cross'.........with BBC news coverage and some anoraked dope in front of the camera going "Errrr....3100hp in your right hand, oh yes, and a proper engine too, and errr, oh yes it's yellow at the end, (thats where the Driver sits! ) and errrr........where's my tissues"

 

Has anybody seen that particular video on YouTube.....? Was That You ?????????

 

 

Its on youtube, search for 'Deltic on ITN'

 

Anyway its sad for me as these were the 1st class I remember as brand new, being amazed at their capacity to replace 3 x 37's on the Port Talbot - Llanwern Iron Ore trains among other things. But the Deltics only lasted 20 years too, some locos less!

[Guest Max Stafford]

As the last BR diesel class (and for the time being, the last British-built large main-line diesel locos) they are part of this country's heritage. At the very least 60001 should be donated to the NRM.

 

'For the time being' is certainly very optimistic, Bernard. I don't think the 60's position in history will ever be challenged now. Soon enough, there will be no heavy industry whatsoever of the kind needing big Type 5 haulage power anyway. Teeside's had it and no doubt South Wales will follow soon.

 

All very sad and I will miss that big bass gurgle as they hustled the Dalston tanks past my place at 3 am!

 

Dave.

[Sam '43003' Tanner]

Preserving one you say..?

 

www.c60pg.co.uk

[Grimleygrid]

Very sad news that the 60s are to be stopped for good within the next week or so.

 

As previously mentioned, in the original design for the 60s, they should have had an overhaul every 8 years so. Therefore some if not all are due for their second visit to the works. Despite the comparison by some in the railway media and those shed lovers on the web it just goes to show how well these locos have done to keep going for nearly 20 years with the lack of servicing and maintenance that they have received. Would a Shed be in a better state with the same treatment?, I think we all know the answer to that looking at certain examples today after only 10 years.

 

A question for those on here that work on the railway and have the knowledge and experience to answer; the latest plan is to double head sheds on certain workings.

 

From what I hear for example the Lindsey to Westerleigh which is normally a 60 (on 28 TEAs) uses approximately the same fuel as a shed on a lighter load (same working). If you then double head it with a pair of sheds then the fuel consumption will be near enough double just to move a few more tanks. How can this be economically and environmentally better than using one loco? I appreciate the cost of maintaining these old locos compared to the newer sheds is higher but in the long run it surely can??™t be cost saving.

 

People often compare the Lindsey to Kingsbury which often loads to 30 bogie tanks which a shed handles no problem compared to a 60. But from what I hear it is working on full power all the way there. That is not what a shed was designed for, pulling heavy freight trains day in day out. Therefore that is putting excess stress and strain on the engine which cannot be good for it, especially as that is not what the engine was designed to do. So in short they can cope on some of these heavier workings but for how long? As mentioned by other members they are already showing signs of wear and tear so this will only make it worse, especially as it has been less than a year since sheds took over the heavier workings!