The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[Poindexter]

Sh*t, I'm turning into a spotter! It's just kinda crept up on me!!

 

I saw 60045 this morning crossing the bridge that spans the A19 at the south end of the Tyne Tunnel at 07:50 this morning. It was running light, going west slowly and I gotta say it looked bloody great, slightly silhouetted with it tail lights on. Then the driver gave it some beans and it gave out a small cloud of clag as it moved forward.

 

I really wish I had my camera cos the light was just starting and it was perched up high on the bridge with its small clag cloud dark against the winter morning/night sky.

 

Next thing I know I'll be sat at Northumbria Park Metro Station taking pics of the GBRf 66's and hoppers thundering through on the adjoining branch....OH NO..........It's got me.....I'm doomed....I'm a spotter.....and I like it.

 

 

Seriously though why would 045 of been running light? Every other time I've seen a loco up there its had a rake of TEA's behind it whether it was going west or east. I assume its a Lindsey- Jarrow oil train?

 

Dex

[yellowvanman]

60011 still in yard at EH today,second 08 has arrived so 60 will be going very soon...

[big T]

I'd much rather have a tug (ahem!) than a Jocko for shunting.

 

Decent cab, decent heaters, 6000A on the needle with the straight air on...................!

 

Will they make it to the New Year?

 

There are only 4 on TOPS at the mo...?

[yellowvanman]

well as expected 60011 has gone from EH..being towed north this afternoon.

[45156]

well as expected 60011 has gone from EH..being towed north this afternoon.

Any idea where "North" is - is it due to come through Lancaster?

[yellowvanman]

I think it went on ov27 towards Didcot /Hinksey..this then goes onto Bescot..prob will end up at Toton.

[brian daniels]

Yep just went past my window in Hinksey this evening. I think it must be Heller's new year resolusion to get rid of them all before we get rid of him later in the month.

[Guest Phil]

Yep just went past my window in Hinksey this evening. I think it must be Heller's new year resolusion to get rid of them all before we get rid of him later in the month.

 

 

Can only be a good thing I'm sure - Heller I mean.

 

If I worked for DBS right now I'd be hoping for ;

 

A nice Hanseatic gentleman or lady to pick up the reins.

A significant order for new wheelsets for class 90s and 92s.

Shipping a handful of 60s back to their birthplace

A couple of lorryloads or red paint to be delivered to Toton.

The sale of the final 37s to preservation or scrap

A good clearout of old tat

A massive injection of self confidence and hope into the staff

An early end to the recession

Some contracts from Network Rail for engineering trains.

[60maniac]

If he is the 'bloke' in charge then anyone could do a better job as I see, I no it's the economic downturn causing all these locos to be "dumped" around the country while there is no use for them then surely repairing them for when work appears they can be put straight into service take Crewe IEMD for chance loads of class 90s just over 20s years old and there dumped probably pending scrapping and even DBS 66 aren't in the best of nic yet Virgin have just started a huge overhaul plan for there 57s so could we see this happening with the 66? as they're 10 years old now as are the 57s

[big T]

When is Keith Heller going or has he gone?

 

I don't think too many people at DB will be sad to see him go!

[rob D2]

60maniac,

I don't think they would have the cash to speculatively repair engines pending new traffic - I think if you were in charge DBS would go bust rather fast.

[Guest Phil]

If he is the 'bloke' in charge then anyone could do a better job as I see, I no it's the economic downturn causing all these locos to be "dumped" around the country while there is no use for them then surely repairing them for when work appears they can be put straight into service take Crewe IEMD for chance loads of class 90s just over 20s years old and there dumped probably pending scrapping and even DBS 66 aren't in the best of nic yet Virgin have just started a huge overhaul plan for there 57s so could we see this happening with the 66? as they're 10 years old now as are the 57s

 

 

60 Maniac

 

I think you should realise that getting any spanner-wielding person onto any loco DBS operate costs a lot of money.

When I worked for EWS many years ago I was told that until EWS fitter salaries came into line with those of "high st" engineering workshops then EWS would struggle massively with costs of maintenance.

 

There must be a proportion of DBS stored fleet that are sitting on scrap wheelsets and "tired" suspensions. I wouldn't like to guess how much a pair of overhauled bogies with good tyres would cost for a class 60 or a class 90, but DBS would need to shift an awful lot of ballast, steel, oil or coal to pay for them.

 

The flip side of course is that a diesel or electric locomotive does not like being parked up for long periods in cold damp gloomy conditions. Rubbers and plastics perish, liquids harden, metals degenerate and electronic components become damp and mildewed. One of earliest memories of this were the batch of class 46s which went to Swindon in the early 1980s for scrap. Several were reactivated but their internal wiring was apparently in a chronic state. IIRC 46017 and 46021 were two of these, which were troublesome whn back in traffic, and this was before the days of on-board computers !!!!

 

The bit I don't understand is - EWS built a state of the art paintshop at Toton, presumably staffed by state of the art painters. There are a goodly number of the DBS fleet rotated through store at Toton. If the paintshop staff are performing non-painting roles at Toton fair enough, otherwise, perhaps some of the long term DBS fleet (not 60s) oughta receive some corporate embellishment ?

['CHARD]

hehehe - you and I following each other round the live threads this afternoon, Phil!

 

Here's a thought, while we're on Toton paintshop. If it were my business/ profit centre, I'd be generating income painting third-parties' rolling stock rather than incurring internal revenue expenditure with nowhere to offset it.

 

To answer another point, and from experience on other fleets, you'd be looking at a good six-figure sum (yes) to get a pair of overhauled bogies these days.

[brian daniels]

Heller goes on 29th January Oh sorry wrong smily as he is my boss, should be this one , not!

 

Toton has done third party paint work.

 

I think the trouble with all these stored electrics is just how much work is there for electric freight haulage in good old blighty? Not a lot I think until we get more cross country routes wired up.

[40044]

I was never much of a fan of Keith Heller's leadership 'style' but he had a difficult job to do and some difficult decisions to make to try and turn the company around. I'm not sure where EWS/DBS would be now if Mengel had stayed in charge but I doubt the company would be in any better a position.

 

Am I glad to see him go? Undoubtedly. If any company needs a change of direction and an injection of morale and cash it's DBS.

[37670]

I was never much of a fan of Keith Heller's leadership 'style' but he had a difficult job to do and some difficult decisions to make to try and turn the company around. I'm not sure where EWS/DBS would be now if Mengel had stayed in charge but I doubt the company would be in any better a position.

 

Am I glad to see him go? Undoubtedly. If any company needs a change of direction and an injection of morale and cash it's DBS.

 

If you think DBS is bad, have a look at what DB did to the Berlin S- Bahn, the latest is that it may be up to three years until services are back to normal, extending service times until wheel sets give and then being forced to withdraw trains to replace the wheel sets. At last two managers have gone but that don't help the suffering passengers who don't know from one day to the next at what frequency the trains are going to run!

 

 

Dominic

 

 

[Supaned]

I think the trouble with all these stored electrics is just how much work is there for electric freight haulage in good old blighty? Not a lot I think until we get more cross country routes wired up.

 

I think the issue is more to do with Network Rail's ludicrious punitive charges for using electric traction , and no DfT encouragement to use them. We're supposed to be more environmentally aware , surely using an electric loco is better than a 66 on full blat under the wires (and yes , I am well aware that the electricity in those wires has to be generated somehow).

 

Perhaps Lord Adonis could direct NR to alter the track access costs to encourage the use of electric locos (and in turn encourage overhauls and possibly even new builds). Siemens and Bombardier have off the shelf traction units - whilst they need fitting into a UK spec bodyshell , it can't be that hard....

[60maniac]

60maniac,

I don't think they would have the cash to speculatively repair engines pending new traffic - I think if you were in charge DBS would go bust rather fast.

I only say that as a 'train enthusiast' and have no experience of how to run a railway,ok, i understand something but not everything, maybe under new leadership the corporate images as said would be more wide spread over 'long term' locos maybe as they're trying to get rid of 60s then maybe they'll look towards newer traction designed for heavy haul like the class 70s although what i've heard they're not favoured by many....

[admiles]

On the subject of overhauls, I would have thought while there is a downturn in traffic starting

overhauls on the earliest of the DBS 66s would make sense. The 66s are the "core" of the DBS fleet

and will be for some time ( I assume!).

 

Maybe as they are leased rather than owned the idea is just to run them into the ground and hand them

back to the leasing company as they drop?? Perhaps that way DBS can just then lease a newer batch of

whatever is available at the time?

 

As a side thought, who is responsable for the costs of a major overhaul on something like the DBS 66

fleet? DBS or the owning lease company?

 

Anthony

['CHARD]

That depends on the nature of the lease.

 

A 'wet' lease includes the costs of scheduled overhauls, a 'dry' lease just covers the asset itself, with the lessee responsible for making overhauls happen.

 

Handback Condition at end of lease is usually, but not always, full working order with fair wear and tear appropriate for the asset's age and its position in the routine maintenance cycle.

 

I am unaware of the terms of DBS's lease agreement with Angel Trains (or what it's now called), but it's probably a dry lease with DBS responsible for overhauls.

 

It won't be as simple as letting them drop and leasing the next new thing, because that would rely on speculative orders for locos, which is unheard of except for penny numbers of vehicles.

[Guest Phil]

I think the issue is more to do with Network Rail's ludicrious punitive charges for using electric traction , and no DfT encouragement to use them. We're supposed to be more environmentally aware , surely using an electric loco is better than a 66 on full blat under the wires (and yes , I am well aware that the electricity in those wires has to be generated somehow).

 

Perhaps Lord Adonis could direct NR to alter the track access costs to encourage the use of electric locos (and in turn encourage overhauls and possibly even new builds). Siemens and Bombardier have off the shelf traction units - whilst they need fitting into a UK spec bodyshell , it can't be that hard....

 

 

Thank you Supa.

 

The big problem as I see it is that Britains railways are controlled by the DfT with the exception of the FOCs which can (to a large degree) please themselves.

 

There is absolutely no incentive for FOCs or TOCs to use electric traction in the UK despite it being a cleaner and more productive traction solution, and a system that most of the rest of the (developed) world choose. The exporting of 2nd hand class 87s to Bulgaria is as good as an example as you are going to see of that.

 

Because of this 75mph freights are worked under the wires by underpowered diesels whilst electrics are in store. Yes - granted, the AC electrics are owned by DBS whilst some of the freight trains are operated by competitors. But there is no attraction to any of the companies to work together and use those assetts. DRS and GBRf obviously didn't feel the need to retain the 87s, and they presumably weren't offered any kind of incentive / tax relief / grant / whatever to make it worth their while. That to me is as disappointing as railfreight in Britain gets, and Brian said, DBS don't have work for the AC loco fleet.

 

Going back to DRS and their Anglo-Scottish intermodal traffic - don't start talking about 80 ton 4 motor electrics being unsuitable for working over the fells. They arn't the best admittedly, and yes there are still enough 92s parked up, but there are multi options with the BO-BOs, which competitor FL IM manage pretty well.

[rob D2]

Why are the 70s not favoured ? i shouldn't think they have had a chance to make a decent assessment yet.Its a shame the economics of the 'double -sheding' don't seem to work for a few more wagons because I bet that is the way they would really like to go.

[Guest Phil]

Why are the 70s not favoured ? i shouldn't think they have had a chance to make a decent assessment yet.Its a shame the economics of the 'double -shedding' don't seem to work for a few more wagons because I bet that is the way they would really like to go.

 

I think the class 70s are very much the centre of attention at the moment - "from over the fence".

 

On the one hand the class 70 is a brand new design, using a diesel engine new to rail use, which was really only developed as a static power unit running on gas and gas mixtures. On the other hand this loco has been designed with the weaknesses of the EMD class 66 borne in mind.

 

I think it is early days yet, but if the 70 behaves itself, and if the European economy picks up, then there must be a bright future for the 70 in Europe and hopefully the UK. It is a real sad thought, but the class 60s may just have been pushed to far into the ground. Is it really worth spending well in excess of half a million pounds on a 20 year old depreciated loco, when a brand new loco - meeting emissions is a tempting option ?

 

You must remember that the railway locomotive or power car is the most punishing place for a diesel engine to do it's work. Cycling, where a diesel engine stands ticking over, until departure time, then has to deliver full power, then is eased back - all the time being subjected to the shocks and jolts, as well as the twisting and flexing of the superstructure.

 

Time will tell !!

[streak]

just a small update. I saw 60009 shunting Jarrow oil terminal yesterday morning. One still running in 2010.

 

Mark

[Shedmaster]

How is 60 071 doing, anybody know ?

 

I'm just checking out a tip here.........something to do with 1 x Class 60 + Flames = Lots Of Smoke ?

 

Dave