The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[Geoff Endacott]

How is 60 071 doing, anybody know ?

Reported working 6N04 Lindsey to Jarrow today.

 

Geoff Endacott

[beast66606]

just a small update. I saw 60009 shunting Jarrow oil terminal yesterday morning. One still running in 2010.

 

Mark

 

60096 has been chugging back and forth on the LBT - FFPS coals

[Shedmaster]

Reported working 6N04 Lindsey to Jarrow today.

 

Geoff Endacott

 

Thanks for that...........no access to TOPS for me today to check out a bad tip.

 

Dave

[Steadfast]

Thanks for that...........no access to TOPS for me today to check out a bad tip.

 

Dave

 

The claim involving flames was to do with a wagon, if it's the reports I read last week. People were reporting that 60071 was a no-show at Water Orton and similar places on the Westerleigh-Lindsey run, and there were other reports talking about the Fire service in attendance. 2+2 was made to equal 5, with the presumed 60 failure, it was a hot box on a TEA IIRC

 

cheers

 

jo

[Grimleygrid]

Dave, I believe it failed yesterday with coolant problems!

 

 

Heard also that the LH beast 59 is having problems too!

[Shedmaster]

Dave, I believe it failed yesterday with coolant problems!

 

 

Heard also that the LH beast 59 is having problems too!

 

I was just sipping a celebratory glass of champers at the possible demise of 66 048, when I read your post about 059'..............and promptly spluttered it all into my lap ! Hope 059' can be.........fixed ?

 

Maybe we could start a new post as to what is the all time favourite Class 60 ? It would have to be 059' for me.................

 

(Seriously though, for the benefit of the tape...........I won't miss another knackered 66 but genuinely hope the crew involved with 66 048' are okay.)

 

Dave

[60maniac]

Its alright Dave another 66 fell out of traffic yesterday so Im told 66426? oil in engine room it was on the sellafield flasks 37 had to push to carnforth eventully ended up being dumped at sellafield?

[beast66606]

60074 reinstated B)

[Jon_Eng]

60096 spotted at Jarrow - they can't get this off the 60s yet.

 

See my pic from February here

[Poindexter]

Hi Jon

I saw 60054 'Charles Babbage' Crossing the A19 at the same place you took your pick (South end of the Tyne Tunnel). Got quite a suprise to see a 60 in petroleum livery. I didnt know they still existed in that full livery!! I saw it on Feb 17th I think.

 

Guy

[Andy Y]

A bit of Class 60 action from 4mins 45secs.

 

 

[StaffsOatcake]

DRS has already handed back the first 10 66/4's to the leasing company when it took delivery of the second batch of 66/4's(411-434)which haven't been the success that it would be hoped. Fuel being a particular problem, as they aren't as fuel efficient as it was hoped. One diagram sees them with fuel to get to Kingmoor on a return leg to Scotland. Some services have just made it to Carlisle on fumes in the fuel tank.

 

66434 has been transferred to Fastline and is now working for them (well it will be when it leaves Gresty Bridge)

 

DRS are unlikely to want a fleet of tugs due to the fact they don't need the heavy haul capacity. and most of the services they run are 75mph intermodals or nuclear flasks and with the tugs having a grand top speed of 62 mph then they would be no use on the 75mph paths on the WCML.

 

Sad to say but the Tugs are doomed in the current economic climate

 

Current status of a few working is likely to continue for a while but eventually they will all go.

[edcayton]

That would have been more realistic if you had used large radius points, especially for the crossover.

 

Ed

[bennyboy]

At least the class 60's had a proper British look about them. Now you might as well be in the United States when train spotting.

 

What happened to design, elegance and variety on Britain's railways (economics, aside)? Britain used to be at the cutting edge of locomotive design; like many other things besides railways, we invent something wonderful and end up having to import other people's "things". I won't write here what I really think of the current fleet of 'locos" in this country, save to say that one word sums them up and it begins with "M" and ends with "s"! Answers below please!

 

 

Simon

 

They may have been cutting edge, but when you are at the forefront of technology you often end up in going down expensive dead ends and failures. Everyone who is waxing lyrical about the Class 60 seems to either forgotten or be unaware of how long it took to get them into traffic and working reliably. BR could afford this lengthy period of bedding in, but there's no way today's freight companies would be that patient. The Class 66s may be crude and less powerful, but they worked pretty well straight from the start without any major problems which couldn't be said about the Class 60.

[rob D2]

spot on benny boy,

 

we all get a bit nostalgic about the past with no thought to the relative practicality of machines - look at all the half cocked diesel designs that were economic disasters that Heljan is now shifting models of by the 1000.

 

I think the demise of the 60 is sad, but I can't see anyone else taking them on.And to be honest I would think most of those rotting away at totn are beyond help unless someone wants to throw six figure sums at them.

[BernardTPM]

Everyone who is waxing lyrical about the Class 60 seems to either forgotten or be unaware of how long it took to get them into traffic and working reliably. BR could afford this lengthy period of bedding in, but there's no way today's freight companies would be that patient.

It's true it took a while to sort out teething troubles and then retrofit while construction was under way, but that had been done before the new companies came into existence. It was a new design and even now in advance of some aspects, such as fuel economy, of the Class 70 (even ignoring aesthetics).

 

 

The Class 66s may be crude and less powerful, but they worked pretty well straight from the start without any major problems which couldn't be said about the Class 60.

From the driver's point of view they weren't so great - noisy cab and uncomfortable ride (as told to me by a driver).

[Barry O]

With the current climate I just wish we could stop buying from across the pond and spend the money here - The 66 and 70s look like sheds on wheels.

 

Perhaps we have been duped into thinking - it works in the USA/Canada so its bound to be OK here?

 

The 60s did the job they were asked to do - the needs of the railway companies have changed (or have they?).

 

 

['CHARD]

With the current climate I just wish we could stop buying from across the pond and spend the money here - The 66 and 70s look like sheds on wheels.

 

Perhaps we have been duped into thinking - it works in the USA/Canada so its bound to be OK here?

 

The 60s did the job they were asked to do - the needs of the railway companies have changed (or have they?).

 

 

 

Well I know the balance of power has shifted (excuse the pun): from the Chief Engineer to the Finance Directors, plural.

[40044]

With the current climate I just wish we could stop buying from across the pond and spend the money here - The 66 and 70s look like sheds on wheels.

 

Perhaps we have been duped into thinking - it works in the USA/Canada so its bound to be OK here?

 

The 60s did the job they were asked to do - the needs of the railway companies have changed (or have they?).

 

If they work in the US/Canada then why shouldn't they work here (or anywhere else)?

 

It's the 66s that have worked more or less straaight from the box. The 60s on the other hand have always had their problems (that's not to say that I dont like 60s and they do still have their uses).

 

The needs of the railway companies have changed only in as much as they require traction which doesn't need depot attention every day or require an army of fitters to keep the locos going.

[Ron Ron Ron]

At least the class 60's had a proper British look about them. Now you might as well be in the United States when train spotting.

Simon, they may be American built, but they don't look anything like American locos.

Speaking personally, I don't think the Shed looks any less British than a 58 or a Western, both unique looking locos which were nothing like the other "British" types in their respective era's.

Anyway,they're a well entrenched part of the landscape now and will be for years. Like it or not, this is the look of the modern British freight scene.

 

 

I suppose it all depends on whether you see the railways of today through enthusiasts eyes or business eyes. I am speaking from an enthusiast's point of view; ....

As hard as it may be to accept, the enthusiast's point of view holds no value in the real world.

At the end of the day, locos are just machines that are used to do a job; their design and operation should mostly be dictated by business and operational needs.

 

 

....The Class 66s may be crude and less powerful, but they worked pretty well straight from the start without any major problems which couldn't be said about the Class 60.

From the driver's point of view they weren't so great - noisy cab and uncomfortable ride (as told to me by a driver).

Robust, reliable and relatively simple, the 66's have turned in availability and reliability figures that could have only been dreamed about in BR days. Plus look at the huge savings made by not needing all those depots. In this regard, they are an unqualified success.

Unfortunately those who spec'ed the 66's had little regard for the driver environment. IIRC, vibration, noise, ride quality, lack of ventilation and aircon/climate control makes them an uncomfortable place to work in, so we are told. That's more of a shame than how the loco looks.

 

 

With the current climate I just wish we could stop buying from across the pond and spend the money here ......

"Spend the money here"?

Where, in the UK or the EU ?

It may have escaped your notice, but the UK's loco manufacturing capacity has all but gone.

The one significant UK manufacturer is Canadian (Bombardier), who only build MU's at their UK plant.

The other manufacturer, Brush, have probably lost most of their manufacturing capability following the completion of the Eurotunnel Class 9's some years ago and subsequent running down of the factory.

 

 

we have been duped into thinking - it works in the USA/Canada so its bound to be OK here?

I don't really think hard nosed business men are "duped". They may make the odd wrong decision from time to time, or suppliers may come up short on what they deliver, but this is serious business involving serious money and I don't believe being "duped" has any part in it.

 

 

60s did the job they were asked to do - the needs of the railway companies have changed (or have they?).

The 60's are said to extremely good at their specialised role, that of a heavy hauler. Unfortunately they are over-complex, unreliable and expensive to maintain. They will only be tolerated as long as a business case can be made to offset those issues against their revenue earning capability. I would have thought the only hope for them is if there's a future requirement to obtain new heavy haulers and there's a business case to completely re-build them with new engines and control equipment, rather than buy new. Sadly, my guess is that "new" will be the cheapest option.

 

 

.

[Rugd1022]

A well executed post Ron, however there's one point I'd like to pick up on....'robust, reliable and relatively simple', hmmm, well, two out of three isn't bad. From personal experience I wouldn't say they're robust, the build quality is atrocious on all but the most recent deliveries (which to be fair have had improvements incorporated into the design). Many of our older 66s are letting in water and draughts around the cabs, the amount of rust inside the cabs around the windows defies belief, interior and exterior doors jam sometimes and make a quick exit in an emergency a real problem. The sliding windows get stuck and the locks break because they are so flimsy, door handles have fallen off leaving the interior door flapping about as you're doing 60mph with the engine / coolant group fan noise coming at you. All of these concerns and more have been passed on up the food chain but hardly any of them are resolved, even after nearly a decade of complaints. I guess we're stuck with them now but as reliable as they undoubtedly are, there were definitley 'built to a price'.

 

Not long after joining Freightliner I was told by one of our managers that when it came to ordering new traction, Brush 5's were considered for a while but the price would simply have been too high. Shame really, as when they're on form, there's nothing to beat a 60. I for one will be sad to see them go.

 

Cheers, Nidge

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hi Nidge,

Yes I'm aware of the build quality issues and the rusting (have you seen American cars) and am 100% with you on all that.

The "Rugged" i'm referring to relates to the mechanicals, which I understand are reasonably tough. Maybe you can clarify?

 

Nethertheless it's a shame for all the drivers who have to put up with it.

 

How are the new 70's for comfort?

Have FL lived up to their promises in putting effort into this aspect of the spec, and have GE delivered?

 

.

[Rugd1022]

Hi Nidge,

Yes I'm aware of the build quality issues and the rusting (have you seen American cars) and am 100% with you on all that.

The "Rugged" i'm referring to relates to the mechanicals, which I understand are reasonably tough. Maybe you can clarify?

 

Nethertheless it's a shame for all the drivers who have to put up with it.

 

How are the new 70's for comfort?

Have FL lived up to their promises in putting effort into this aspect of the spec, and have GE delivered?

 

.

 

Hi Ron,

 

You are right of course, everything that's bolted down to the chassis is rugged, but this in itself is part of the problem - the cabs, engine, generator, etc are bolted directly to the floor with no 'give' in them which creates all the vibration / noise / rattling and no amount of complaining seems to make any difference! Throw in a bit of body and chassis twisting under heavy throttle usage and the exterior paintwork suffers, patches of it start flaking off letting the side sheets rust away.

 

I'd say the engine is virtually bullet proof, being a 2-stroke it's dead simple but the compressor runs directly off the crank and runs almost continuously, so the engine revs up and down the whole time. Prep and disposal is simplicity itself, there's not much to look at in the electrical cubicle at No.1 end but when things do go wrong it's usually electrical in nature. One very cold day I went down to Oxford to work a set of empties from Hinksey Yard back to the quarry at Stud Farm, the loco was in the West Mids siding at Oxford station and hadn't been run up during the night so was still covered in frost. I came to start it and nothing was happeneing. I got straight on the phone to the fitter at Crewe who ended up giving me instructions over the phone on how to change the PCB boards around to get it to fire up. It took nearly an hour but we managed it in the end.... they just do not like the cold weather if they've been left standing for more than 48 hours!

 

In total contrast to the above, given a Class 60 in similar condition the difference in 'feel' is very obvious.... the only way to describe it really is as a 'rugged smoothness', I know it sounds like a contradiction in terms but it just about sums up the 60s for me. Even with traction motors isolated, a 60 is a far superior workhorse than a 66. I only ever had a 60 fail on me the once, with low engine oil pressure, the failsafe kicked in to protect the engine and she shut down on me on the Sutton Park line, right in the middle of the dip between Streetly and Aldridge! Had to wait an hour or so for assistance but it came in the shape of another pair of 60s which travelled all the way from Worcester.

 

I've now seen a few '70s in the flesh close up, but haven't been in the cab yet. Our team leader was passed out on them in January and say's he's very impressed with them all round so far. They're growing on me more each time I see one and I'm told we will be on them eventually, as at our depot we have some of the heaviest trains on the hardest gradients..... you'd think the powers that be would want to put them on these jobs straight away to show what they're capable of but no, they let them hang around Crewe in the middle of the night going nowhere!

 

There are still some problems which need to be sorted out with them, mainly to do with access to certain areas by the fitters and the onboard computers which have been the cause of most failures so far, so I'm told anyway.

 

Cheers, Nidge

[Grimleygrid]

There is no arguing with the reliability and availability figures that Sheds have given freight companies which is very impressive. Yes they worked straight out of the unlike the 60s but you have to put this into perspective. The 60 was a completely new design, the 66 was built using proven and off the shelf technology which was readily available so EMD could offer a cheap and affordable loco. Both locos do what they are designed to do, a shed is a jack of all trades and a 60 a heavy freight loco. The US Rail Industry is in a completely different league and can offer cheaper locos than we can in the UK.

 

 

 

The future does not look bright for them but until DB get a replacement a handful will remain in traffic to cover the diagrams which need the extra power.

 

If you look at this time last year and then the tail end of 2009 DB were trying desperately to get rid of them. This even meant double-heading some services; Tunstead to Oakleigh hoppers, Robeston to Westerleigh, Lindsey to Westerleigh and a couple of times on the Lindsey to Jarrow. As the fuel bill started to soar questions were asked why this was happening and low and behold a 60 returned to Peak Forest and a few more to IM.

 

Now we see 59/2s venturing from Merehead to Warrington and now Margam it just proves that DB need a few heavy freight locos. Six 59/2s will be stretched if they are to cover all these diagrams and things pick up at Merehead……..

 

 

 

Like them or hate them the 60s are still going strong and under the original design by now they should have been overhauled at least twice. It just goes to show how good engines they are to keep going after the treatment they have received. I am sure most engineers would agree that treating machinery in such away i.e. store for months, back into traffic then store again etc., etc. does little to help it mechanically.

 

Still I am sure a shed would be in much better condition with the same treatment……..

 

 

[revengeofthecat]

There is no arguing with the reliability and availability figures that Sheds have given freight companies which is very impressive. Yes they worked straight out of the unlike the 60s but you have to put this into perspective. The 60 was a completely new design, the 66 was built using proven and off the shelf technology which was readily available so EMD could offer a cheap and affordable loco. Both locos do what they are designed to do, a shed is a jack of all trades and a 60 a heavy freight loco. The US Rail Industry is in a completely different league and can offer cheaper locos than we can in the UK.

 

If Sterling ends up at parity with the US$ that will change!