Modelling Spam Cans (Bulleid Pacifics)

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Interesting what you say about "92 Squadron" in malachite, which I think is one of the early ones. I've found these to be far better in terms of manufacturing quality in the chassis, free-running and so on, although the back-to-backs usually need a tweak. I have a fairly recent "Exeter" which is the other way, screw holes not square, the thing a bit like it was done after a session in the pub!

 

Good idea to buy cheap early ones for spares, like it!

 

John.

Except where models have been fully retooled, the build quality on 15-20 year-old Hornby locos is usually better than "new" ones from tooling of that vintage.

 

I have no interest in DCC or sound and regard "losing" the flimsy loco-tender wander-lead and plug as an advantage!

 

Until Hornby bring their Light Pacifics up to the standard of the Air-smoothed MN, (or somebody else tackles them) any further additions to my fleet will be pre-owned, and named/numbered to my choice, not Hornby's!

 

£250+ for the latest WC's, in which 95% of the content dates back twenty years, is frankly taking the P155.

 

John

Edited July 24, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Obadiah]

Just to add a little something to the mix, my own recently completed 35009 Shaw Savil, a heavily modified Hornby 21C7, plus various parts from RT models, and parts from the depths of the old bits box.

[Dunsignalling]

Quick query.

 

I've just acquired a pre-owned (a non-runner, but I expect to rectify that later today) formerly a 605 Squadron, but rather nicely renamed as Sir Eustace Missenden, Southern Railway with other well-executed modifications.

 

I'll be replacing the tender body with a 4500g example so as to represent the loco from January 1959, when it received the smaller type in a swap with 34010 Sidmouth which was rebuilt at that time, and which 34090 ran with thereafter, itself being rebuilt and the tender cut-down in April 1960.

 

My problem is that I haven't been able to find a photo of 34090 taken during those 15 months. It was only in for a Light Intermediate when the tender swap occurred, so may not have been repainted, and I am uncertain as to whether it received the later BR crest at that time or retained the earlier one until rebuilding. "Derry" is silent on the matter, so I'm leaving the old one in place unless information emerges to the contrary.

 

Do any of you guys know?

 

John

Edited July 29, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

On 29/07/2022 at 13:39, Dunsignalling said:

Quick query.

 

I've just acquired a pre-owned (a non-runner, but I expect to rectify that later today) formerly a 605 Squadron, but rather nicely renamed as Sir Eustace Missenden, Southern Railway with other well-executed modifications.

I'll be replacing the tender body with a 4500g example so as to represent the loco from January 1959, when it received the smaller type in a swap with 34010 Sidmouth which was rebuilt at that time, and which 34090 ran with thereafter, itself being rebuilt and the tender cut-down in April 1960.

My problem is that I haven't been able to find a photo of 34090 taken during those 15 months. It was only in for a Light Intermediate when the tender swap occurred, so may not have been repainted, and I am uncertain as to whether it received the later BR crest at that time or retained the earlier one until rebuilding. "Derry" is silent on the matter, so I'm leaving the old one in place unless information emerges to the contrary.

Do any of you guys know?

John

John have you checked the usual sources on this? SMEG etc? 

This one?

https://southern-locomotives.co.uk/Class_Details/Bulleid_Light_Pacifics.html#

 

I'm not any use about this detail...sorry.

Phil

 

[Mallard60022]

Morning all. 

I'm not too obsessed about getting things exactly as they should be on Hornby Bulleids at this point in my modelling time, as long as they look OK from 3'. Once the things are running regularly I might be more so as it is a little niggle with me, knowing the thing isn't quite correct.

At present I am going through some simple ID alterations (names numbers) and so am checking on what are 'obvious' differences such as Tenders (arggghhhh) and when Loco's were Modified (Rebuilt) as I'm covering 1958/9 to 1964 on the layout. I've got the usual reference books to hand (in the loft).

Trash my attitude now if you so wish! However, may I ask about the wider Cab situation with Hornby's products!

Are any of the models, (34071 onwards, original Air Smoothed versions)  actually made that way or not? If not and I want to convert '67 to '74, is that heresy? I think I can live with 1 mm difference each side! I could try and find a Weymouth donor I suppose?

Any advice gratefully received.

Many thanks.

Phil

[30368]

21 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Are any of the models, (34071 onwards, original Air Smoothed versions)  actually made that way or not? If not and I want to convert '67 to '74, is that heresy? I think I can live with 1 mm difference each side!

Hi Phil,

 

Have checked my stock of original WC/BB that I can find in my railway room (there are more somewhere) and they are all 8' 6" cabs but then they all should be. Sorry no help!

If you felt so inclined, you could make a brass overlay and glue them onto the cab sides that would reduce the deficit by, say 0.5mm each side, just a thought.

 

As to tenders, Richard Derry has 34072 with tender 3322 up to 22/11/57 then 3277.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, 30368 said:

Hi Phil,

 

Have checked my stock of original WC/BB that I can find in my railway room (there are more somewhere) and they are all 8' 6" cabs but then they all should be. Sorry no help!

If you felt so inclined, you could make a brass overlay and glue them onto the cab sides that would reduce the deficit by, say 0.5mm each side, just a thought.

 

As to tenders, Richard Derry has 34072 with tender 3322 up to 22/11/57 then 3277.

 

Kind regards,

Richard B

Found a handy list now Richard.  Probably in this thread somewhere as well.

https://sremg.org.uk/model/lpvar.html

ATB

PHIL

 

[John Tomlinson]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Morning all. 

I'm not too obsessed about getting things exactly as they should be on Hornby Bulleids at this point in my modelling time, as long as they look OK from 3'. Once the things are running regularly I might be more so as it is a little niggle with me, knowing the thing isn't quite correct.

At present I am going through some simple ID alterations (names numbers) and so am checking on what are 'obvious' differences such as Tenders (arggghhhh) and when Loco's were Modified (Rebuilt) as I'm covering 1958/9 to 1964 on the layout. I've got the usual reference books to hand (in the loft).

Trash my attitude now if you so wish! However, may I ask about the wider Cab situation with Hornby's products!

Are any of the models, (34071 onwards, original Air Smoothed versions)  actually made that way or not? If not and I want to convert '67 to '74, is that heresy? I think I can live with 1 mm difference each side! I could try and find a Weymouth donor I suppose?

Any advice gratefully received.

Many thanks.

Phil

 

The answer to your question is that Hornby do model both wide and narrow cabs. They also model wide and narrow tenders to match. They haven't done the original smooth side cab with no cut-out, you'll need an RT models conversion or scratchbuild for that.

 

My collection of Hornby WC/BB's, almost all pre-owned off ebay, seems to have bred each time I see it. If you want to be totally accurate with your renumbers then you really do need to be quite careful. It is a nightmare. The more gen you can get the better, the Irwell book by Derry which covers a lot of detail is essential IMHO.

 

John.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

The answer to your question is that Hornby do model both wide and narrow cabs. They also model wide and narrow tenders to match. They haven't done the original smooth side cab with no cut-out, you'll need an RT models conversion or scratchbuild for that.

 

My collection of Hornby WC/BB's, almost all pre-owned off ebay, seems to have bred each time I see it. If you want to be totally accurate with your renumbers then you really do need to be quite careful. It is a nightmare. The more gen you can get the better, the Irwell book by Derry which covers a lot of detail is essential IMHO.

 

John.

Thanks John. In my early days I had little idea about the 'differences' . Then about 6 /7 years back I began to look at doing my Layout and began the investigations.

Oh yes, nightmare it is. I thought Gresley Pacifics were dodgy, but this lot are a 'class' challenge. As the layout is just mine in the loft, I doubt I'll bother with Ash Pans and things (he says confidently on 07/07/2022), however the more obvious Bodywork things and Tender Tops need doing. I need to go through my 'fleet' once again and do the checks on Speedo and AWS and anything else that is a glaring difference like 35018's Pipework. 

The Light Pacifics are more challenging, Tender allocation dates and types wise, but that's not too much of an issue and is fun to learn. 

Without checking yet I am sure  there is a Hornby BR Green match for 34074; 72A Engine, so needed more than 34067, which is wrong Cabwise anyway. I shall have to Brave Ebay, but many of the prices seem very silly indeed, even Bodies (of which there only a few). 

Yes, the Irwells are a Godsend really.  I shall have to get back to bedtime reading.

ATB and thanks.

Phil              

[69843]

16 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

(he says confidently on 07/07/2022)

How confidently 🙃

Date aside, the more learned could correct me if I'm wrong but checking notes and photos it appears that 34074 would be a separate loco and tender job or a re-crest job. I cannot see a late crest wide cab with a full height tender in any Hornby option. Though I am happy to be corrected here.

[Mallard60022]

18 minutes ago, 69843 said:

How confidently 🙃

Date aside, the more learned could correct me if I'm wrong but checking notes and photos it appears that 34074 would be a separate loco and tender job or a re-crest job. I cannot see a late crest wide cab with a full height tender in any Hornby option. Though I am happy to be corrected here.

Confidently hesitant 🙄

I could use the tender off 34067 (full height), if its the right water content? There are a few Loco options, I think from the look of the list.

If it's going to be an arse I shall just scrap the idea. Life is too short (for me anyway).

Cheers Woop,

Phil

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Confidently hesitant 🙄

I could use the tender off 34067 (full height), if its the right water content? There are a few Loco options, I think from the look of the list.

If it's going to be an arse I shall just scrap the idea. Life is too short (for me anyway).

Cheers Woop,

Phil

Yes, according to date. 34074 ran with both types of high-sided tender. 5500g from new and 4500g from early1958. Withdrawn in 1963 without ever being abbreviated.

 

Hornby has done just one wide-cab loco that matches the latter combination, City of Wells (probably too scarce and valuable to mess with). Otherwise it'll need to be be a mix-and match job.

 

Tender off Tangmere or 73 Squadron, Dorchester or Exeter (there are undoubtedly others) is OK if you can find one, though Hornby later did Tangmere with a cut-down tender and late crest in a train pack. That fits my period better so my first Tangmere is now Hawkinge. which was another loco that retained its tender raves to withdrawal.

 

John

Edited August 7, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

I find that 74s tender was Modified/Cut Down for my period so that helps, as I have many of them.

I thought it had a Raves tender till scrapping, but nope.

Looks like I will have to consider making Tangmere, with raved Tender, into 34070 as Tangmere's Tender was Cut in 1958.

Now to check '70!

I'll try to find a suitable donor for '74, BUT I think I have two City of Wells to become '74. I need to double check! Maybe I'd planned this ages ago and forgotten!

Thanks for all the help everyone.

P

Edited August 8, 2022 by Mallard60022

[John Tomlinson]

38 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I find that 74s tender was Modified/Cut Down for my period so that helps, as I have many of them.

I thought it had a Raves tender till scrapping, but nope.

Looks like I will have to consider making Tangmere, with raved Tender, into 34070 as Tangmere's Tender was Cut in 1958.

Now to check '70!

I'll try to find a suitable donor for '74, BUT I think I have two City of Wells to become '74. I need to double check! Maybe I'd planned this ages ago and forgotten!

Thanks for all the help everyone.

P

 

Hate to rain on anyone's party, but....

 

Looking at that picture, I get the distinct impression the loco, whilst itself wide cab as built, is towing a narrow tender. This may be wrong, and needs confirmation. Apparently this happened quite a lot once the rebuilding programme was underway, as all narrow cab locos were fitted with wide cabs on rebuilding. With 60 rebuilds, ther weren't enough wide tenders to go round (only 40 built), and so there were mismatches. Particularly wide cab locos that were unrebuilt had their tenders transferred to narrow cab locos that had been rebuilt, and got narrow tenders in return. I got all this from the Irwell/ Derry book. Confused a bit?? Never mind, so are the rest of us!

 

If my speculation is correct, you'll need a cut down tender from a 34041 "Wilton" model, to name but one source, and a wide cab unrebuilt loco body.

 

Please can someone verify my speculation.

 

John.

[Dunsignalling]

Phil,

 

John T. is correct on the 4500g tender. 34074 received one, albeit with raves intact, in a swap with 34014 Budleigh Salterton when that loco was rebuilt in 1958, the larger one then being cut down as was standard with rebuilt locos (one of the few things that can be relied upon in relation to WC/BB tenders).

 

34074 was transferred to 72A immediately thereafter, having previously worked out of Dover since 1950. However, neither of the usual references, Derry or Winkworth, mention 34074 ever having received a cut-down tender of either size.

 

If the loco in the photo is correctly identified (the number plate is too blurred on my screen to be certain), the tender may be a short-term "borrow" whilst its own underwent running repairs at Exmouth Jn. 

 

Alternatively, could it possibly be 34079 141 Squadron, also a 72A engine, which definitely received a tender of the type pictured?  

 

Regards

 

John S.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Dealing separately with 34070. Treat it with a certain amount of caution.

 

Whilst your Tangmere is suitable, 34070 did have its tender cut down (albeit rather late, in March 1963) and was one of only a handful (34002 Salisbury was another) to carry the later BR crest on a high-raved tender that was later modified. This dated either from a Light Intermediate overhaul in Feb/Mar. 1960, or a Non-Classified repair in Feb/Mar. 1962, though I'm unsure which.

 

Manston seems to have made a habit of visiting Eastleigh in February/March!

 

John

 

PS. Changing the tender emblem isn't difficult. I've done it on my 34069 Hawkinge, also ex-Tangmere.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Dealing separately with 34070. Treat it with a certain amount of caution.

 

Whilst your Tangmere is suitable, 34070 did have its tender cut down (albeit rather late, in March 1963) and was one of only a handful (34002 Salisbury was another) to carry the later BR crest on a high-raved tender that was later modified. This dated either from a Light Intermediate overhaul in Feb/Mar. 1960, or a Non-Classified repair in Feb/Mar. 1962, though I'm unsure which.

 

Manston seems to have made a habit of visiting Eastleigh in February/March!

 

John

An thanks I have it for 1962 from a Pic in the Derry Bible. I could run it 1960 until end of 63 which is my main WTT.

Bloody nightmare this is, so thanks.

Pretty sure it's 34074. Derry is usually reliable so your speculation is worthy and fun too. JT's mention is also very helpful. 

When I read Derry my head explodes after 10 minutes.

Cheers chaps.

P

 

[Dunsignalling]

29 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

An thanks I have it for 1962 from a Pic in the Derry Bible. I could run it 1960 until end of 63 which is my main WTT.

Bloody nightmare this is, so thanks.

Pretty sure it's 34074. Derry is usually reliable so your speculation is worthy and fun too. JT's mention is also very helpful. 

When I read Derry my head explodes after 10 minutes.

Cheers chaps.

P

 

I find Derry-dipping can be addictive and time-consuming.

 

I therefore try to keep it to specific things I'm wanting to find out!

 

IF 34074's tender did get cut but it was not recorded, my money would be on it happening in June 1961, so photos taken during its last two years in traffic should show it. 

 

Unfortunately, on the showing of my usual books, the beastie seems to have been rather camera-shy during the period in question. 

 

John

 

PS. Just found one. Ivo Peters' Southern Steam Album (Plate 32) 34074 with high sided tender running into Wilton, 29 September 1962.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I find Derry-dipping can be addictive and time-consuming.

 

I therefore try to keep it to specific things I'm wanting to find out!

 

IF 34074's tender did get cut but it was not recorded, my money would be on it happening in June 1961, so photos taken during its last two years in traffic should show it. 

 

Unfortunately, on the showing of my usual books, the beastie seems to have been rather camera-shy during the period in question. 

 

John

 

PS. Just found one. Ivo Peters' Southern Steam Album (Plate 32) 34074 with high sided tender running into Wilton, 29 September 1962 in a very woebegone state.

 

Also, a nice colour shot of 34070 in Southern Steam in the South and West (Arlett & Lockett) confirming it had the late crest in 1960.

 

Plus, a 1960 shot of a nice clean 34074 on shed at 72A showing it too got the late crest on the high tender, as well as AWS.  That makes it a candidate for renaming/detailing my 605 Squadron (which already had a cut tender by the time it came West), alternating in traffic with my Hawkinge by sharing its tender until I can get hold of another narrow/high one. 

 

I'm growing ever more inclined to think the loco in your pic is 34079, or (and possibly more likely, 34076 41 Squadron, which is also known to have run in that combination and was at 72A from 1957-64. 4s and 6s are especially difficult to differentiate in a less-than-pin-sharp photo.

 

John

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

29 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

PS. Just found one. Ivo Peters' Southern Steam Album (Plate 32) 34074 with high sided tender running into Wilton, 29 September 1962 in a very woebegone state.

 

Also, a nice colour shot of 34070 in Southern Steam in the South and West (Arlett & Lockett) confirming it had the late crest in 1960.

 

Plus, a 1960 shot of a nice clean 34074 on shed at 72A showing it too got the late crest on the high tender, as well as AWS.  That makes it a candidate for renaming my 605 Squadron (which had a cut tender by the time it came West), alternating in traffic with my Hawkinge by sharing its tender until I can get hold of another narrow/high one. 

 

I'm growing ever more inclined to think the loco in your pic is 34079, or possibly 34076 41 Squadron, which is also known to have run in that combination and was at 72A from 1957-64.

 

John

Cheers John. I really appreciate your time there. I have the Plates and Transfers for 70 and 74. However I may just forget them if its going to be such a faff. If you want the Plates and I'm not using them on ditching 74, then you are welcome to them.

Phil.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Cheers John. I really appreciate your time there. I have the Plates and Transfers for 70 and 74. However I may just forget them if its going to be such a faff. If you want the Plates and I'm not using them on ditching 74, then you are welcome to them.

Phil.

Your Tangmere would be fine for 34070, Phil, just needs the tender crest changing, which is no more difficult than renumbering the loco. Just a bit of gentle rubbing with T-Cut on a cotton bud, which leaves a nice shiny patch to take the new crest transfer. A quick squirt with satin or matt varnish (after any weathering you fancy applying) ties it all together. 

 

Thanks for the offer on the plates, I already have a Manston (the post '63 HCC version) but I'll let you know by PM if I can use the 34074 set after I've done a bit more checking that it's suitable to be made from what I have. 

 

Regards

 

John

[69843]

This photo from Flickr also seems to confirm that ‘74 had a raves tender to withdrawal and scrapping, so if the above photo is 34074 I would suspect it was a short term job. 
 

 

[Wickham Green too]

On 08/08/2022 at 15:40, Mallard60022 said:

 

Whatever this loco is, it has the plaques in the lowered position to allow for Golden Arrers !

Edited August 9, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[Dunsignalling]

13 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Whatever this loco is, it has the nameplate in the lowered position to allow for Golden Arrers !

Well spotted!

 

Which, looking at the scrap line photo,  did not apply to 34074.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Mallard60022]

On 09/08/2022 at 12:05, Dunsignalling said:

Well spotted!

 

Which, looking at the scrap line photo,  did not apply to 34074.

Never trust a caption then. This pic came from the SREMG's pages!"

"Nº34074 46 Squadron at Cowley Bridge Junction with a train for the Ilfracombe line.
Photograph: Mike Morant collection."

 

I'd never have noticed that Arrars situation either!

Thanks all.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Mallard60022
Incompetence.