Theory of General Minories

[cary hill]

Perhaps it might be possible to re-invent Minories as a sort of Plymouth Millbay following closure to passengers after it was bombed, with only goods traffic dealt with and empty rakes of coaches being shunted in and out of off-stage carriage sidings. An "intensive" goods service might still be problematical though.

[Pacific231G]

Perhaps it might be possible to re-invent Minories as a sort of Plymouth Millbay following closure to passengers after it was bombed, with only goods traffic dealt with and empty rakes of coaches being shunted in and out of off-stage carriage sidings. An "intensive" goods service might still be problematical though.

I was at college in Plymouth from 1967-69 and the tracks leading to Millbay on the bridge over Union Street were still being used as carriage sidings for the main North Road station. AFAIR the station itself seemed, at least from the outside, to be intact though disused (it closed as a public goods station in 1966) but I don't know if it too was used for carriage storage or as a headshunt for the carriage sidings. The lines to Millbay docks were also still open though by then not handling a huge amount of traffic. The docks connection closed in 1971 and sometome after that the the area occupied by the line was levelled and used for road "improvements".

According to Potts, the station was closed to passengers in 1941 in order to provide goods facilities after the goods station had been badly bombed so the goods traffic would have been fairly intensive as would traffic to and from Millbay Docks. The docks were used for shipbuilding as well as handling cargo so unusual loads such as ship's propellors and anchors could justifiably be operated. Until 1963 passenger trains also ran to and from the docks to connect with the liners that still called at Plymouth partly to fulfil Royal Mail contracts. In 1949 mail traffic amounted to over 400 000 bags so that must have required mail vehicles though I don't know if they ran as special ocean mail trains or were simply attached to the regular West of England mail trains.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Pacific231G

[AngusDe]

Glasgow's St Enoch was another substantial passenger station that survived for a year or two longer with goods and parcels.

 

Now that would be a depiction of real urban grot and decay!

 

Angus

[Ian_H]

Glasgow's St Enoch;

 

 

it's a long way from the idea of a Minories track plan

 

However you could consider the 1910 version;

 

 

Ian

[Armchair Modeller]

Glasgow's St Enoch;

 

it's a long way from the idea of a Minories track plan

 

However you could consider the 1910 version;

 

Ian

 

The '1910 version' above is just a small part of the track plan as it existed at that date - the extreme bottom left part of the larger plan in the last post.

[bluebottle]

Glasgow St Enoch.png

 

it's a long way from the idea of a Minories track plan

 

Ian

 

You could say that...

If the man had asked for a pet monkey, would you offer him King Kong?  

 

Gordon

[Satan's Goldfish]

How about someone coming up with a Minories that has no passenger service but an intensive Goods operation?

 

Best , Pete.

Here's an old favorite mystery Ipswich location of mine which it turns was used for loading engineers freights, how's this fit your requirement?:

 

 

Alternatively the minories layout of 3 long sidings, 1 short siding, and 2 entrance roads could be turned into 3 long sidings under gantries or similar for steel/container/coal/stone/etc loading, 1 short cripple/stabling siding, and the 2 entrance roads could become 1 entrance road and 1 headshunt heading offscene side by side.

 

 

 

The minories concept has been growing on me since finding this as something quick and simple to build to get some stock on show and use items i already have in 15 inch by 12 feet area.

 

Trowse on the out skirts of Norwich sprang to mind, and yes i know it's a through station rather than a terminus but only one end would be represented. Then it evolved into nothing like Trowse anyway!

 

Feel free to rip apart the below, it would be GE in flavour and for ease of operation everything would be bi-directional but give the illusion of a mainline through station. All of it apart from the freight sidings would also have OLE. Main services would be 86 + push pull (4 carriages should just fit with the 86 hanging off the end of the platform (86 always at Fiddle yard end)) DMUs, and 3 carriage + equivalent length freight, hauled services.

 

I can't see any need for more than 3 storage roads for good varied operation and to keep it looking busy. There's plenty of scope for 2 services to run at once and from quick mental working out i think it could easily handle 5 trains + a couple of extra engines (Passenger 1 push-pull, 1 loco hauled, 1 DMU + 2x Freight.

 

DC controlled, the obvious connection point for 2 controllers would be where the 2 lines cross the board joint and then the rest of the track electronics would be taken care of by insulfrog points (I know other's opinions on them, but i've never had issues running over them) with insulated sections at the end of each platform/freight/fiddle siding for loco release.

 

Have i made any silly design errors here?

 

[Guest jonte]

Hi.

 

Hope this isn't taking the thread too 'off topic' (although I suspect it would certainly be of interest to all those considering building a Minories based layout for the first time), but has anyone designed a suitable 'intensive' operational timetable for this layout, and if so, would they be willing to share?

 

To my knowledge, the hinted at challenge this long standing layout presents has never actually been recorded (or none that I'm aware of), and I'd be delighted to learn of a suitable timetable if one exists (I did read somewhere that it is quite easy to end up in a pickle and end up with trains trapped at  platform if one doesn't 'concentrate', so sounds a bit of a puzzle).

 

If not, is there any kind soul out there of an operational bent willing to take up the mantle of designing one which he/she is willing to disclose?

 

I think this would be the next logical step along the planning route and essential to all those hoping to get the maximum out of such a small design.

 

May I suggest using the original plan of three roads (platforms) with single siding and loco spur as a basis for operations, from which more ambitious versions for later Minories based layouts can be developed?

 

I look forward to reading your responses.

 

Jonte

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi.

 

Hope this isn't taking the thread too 'off topic' (although I suspect it would certainly be of interest to all those considering building a Minories based layout for the first time), but has anyone designed a suitable 'intensive' operational timetable for this layout, and if so, would they be willing to share?

 

 

Jonte

Hi Jonte

 

I think the Midland Railway, and the Great Northern did. Have a look at old time tables for Moorgate up to 1977. It was train in, loco on country end, train out, loco to siding, train in .......till only one loco was left to travel home light engine.

[Guest jonte]

Hi Jonte

 

I think the Midland Railway, and the Great Northern did. Have a look at old time tables for Moorgate up to 1977. It was train in, loco on country end, train out, loco to siding, train in .......till only one loco was left to travel home light engine.

Thanks for your prompt reply, Clive.

 

Great idea!

 

I must admit to not having considered using the 'real thing' as a likely source, as riculous as it may sound. And a prototype to base it on. Think I shall enjoy that little bit of research.

 

Now, where to look.....................................

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[Fay Singpoint]

Hi Jonte

 

I think the Midland Railway, and the Great Northern did. Have a look at old time tables for Moorgate up to 1977. It was train in, loco on country end, train out, loco to siding, train in .......till only one loco was left to travel home light engine.

 

Hi,

 

This was further complicated by the fact that permissive working was not provided off the Widened Lines in to either platform 5 or 6. Therefore the first moves at the start of service were individual light engines in to the empty platforms and then in to the sidings to wait the first passenger train. 

[AngusDe]

Glasgow's St Enoch;

 

it's a long way from the idea of a Minories track plan

 

 

Ian

 

lol! I know it was the 1967 version I was thinking off!

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33476733@N04/6816066611/

 

Angus

[Pacific231G]

Hi.

 

Hope this isn't taking the thread too 'off topic' (although I suspect it would certainly be of interest to all those considering building a Minories based layout for the first time), but has anyone designed a suitable 'intensive' operational timetable for this layout, and if so, would they be willing to share?

 

To my knowledge, the hinted at challenge this long standing layout presents has never actually been recorded (or none that I'm aware of), and I'd be delighted to learn of a suitable timetable if one exists (I did read somewhere that it is quite easy to end up in a pickle and end up with trains trapped at  platform if one doesn't 'concentrate', so sounds a bit of a puzzle).

 

I think the MRC team who built the EM gauge "tribute" Minories for the plan's 50th anniversary run it to a sequence if not to an actual timetable and they did tell me that it was easy to get tangled in just the way you've heard.  Might be worth getting in touch with Keen House.

 

 

 

[Ian_H]

Could always look at Bradfield for inspiration, a small mainline terminus or the real thing Bradford Foster Square and do remember that across the city is the Interchange that replaced the old Exchange station.

 

Ian

 

Edited for typo errors, damn keyboard

Edited March 8, 2013 by Ian_H

[Guest jonte]

Hi Emma, David & Ian.

 

Thanks for your input. 

 

That's interesting to know, Emma. The sort of thing you'd work out eventually to make it all work, although would never be quite sure whether it was 'protoypical'.

 

Plenty of food for thought there, Ian. I shall enjoy exploring these unfamiliar territories.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, David. Will see if there is a 'contact' on their web site. Actually, I think 'sequence' is a better way of putting it.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jonte.

[Ian_H]

Hi Jonte,

 

Here's a link to Bradfield Gloucester Square:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/

 

There are also videos that the Laird has made that covers operational movements over a 24hrs period ...... fantastic stuff, at least in my humble opinion.

[Guest jonte]

Hi Jonte,

 

Here's a link to Bradfield Gloucester Square:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/

 

There are also videos that the Laird has made that covers operational movements over a 24hrs period ...... fantastic stuff, at least in my humble opinion.

Hi Ian.

 

Like many of us, I've been aware and in awe of this fine layout since it first put in an appearance here. However, following your kind suggestion, thought I'd take another look and found myself absorbed once again - resulted in yet another late night!!

 

Interestingly, I discovered this: (which I'd obviously overlooked first time round and features about half way down the page- funny what else you can discover when you have a purpose in mind) a timetable/sequence of operations for a typical day at Bradfield  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/page-5

 

Naturally, as you quite rightly pointed out, this led me on to several wonderful little videos which feature towards the end of John's thread just to see it in practice that, from memory, are annotated to identify the moves being made.  I thoroughly enjoyed watching them once again, only this time, I paid attention to what was actually going on!! Consequently, I'd consider it highly recommended viewing for anyone contemplating a Minories based layout.

 

So thank you again, Ian.

 

Jonte

Edited March 9, 2013 by jonte

[grasshopper]

I was looking at an old photo of Newcastle (on Hunter  ) and realised it was like a Minories . 

 

Before this photo was taken, behind the photographer,  there was an extensive nest of coal loading sidings fed from where you see the goods train 

And looking at it the other way there is a steam tram as well

 

 

 

[roythebus]

The Widened Lines Moorgate terminus did indeed have a light engine move preceeding the first train, and a balancing light engine move after the last train in the mornings and evenings. I worked one of the last loco hauled trains from there in 1977!

 

By then, the Midland services were all DMU operated and had been for quite a while.

 

ISTR there was a colour pic of Moorgate on the front of Railway Magazine in about 1961 in semi-derelict state, before all the redevelopment of the area, showing an LMS 2-6-4T and a set of LMS suburbans next to a Met loco. There was still the twisted remains of the station canopies in that view; it never did seem to be tidied up much after bomb damage from WW2.

[Russ (mines a pint)]

^{I was, having possibly found a space for a small-medium shelf layout, (rather than the apa box style thing I was looking at) looking at the Newcastle Haymarket type of plan with just a single island platform- but then with a 'minories' style approach so each platform could be accessed . I've also developed a bit of a thing for the old first generation DMU's despite despising them back in the day,}

 

^{The original Newcastle Haymarket was a single line in/out but I felt even in the direst days of rationalisation that wasn't prototypical for an urban location, though I do believe right at the end of Bradford F. Sq before the new station was built there were two turnouts back to back with effectively albeit very short single line between the two turnouts .}

 

^{In its rebuilt version there was double track but each platform was not accessible from each line.}

 

^{So atm I'm thinking of taking the simple & (importantly narrow board width you could get) with the 2 platform island, but the flexibility and slightly less boring operation of having both platforms being accessible from a double track approach ? A scissors crossover would undoubtedly work for this but I doubt I could build one.}

Edited October 16, 2013 by Russ (mines a pint)

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

Despite making the point work for Cripplegate I have no updates on its progress because there has been none. However Minories still keeps me thinking. Sorry I cannot find the thread where this idea of using a Peco single slip came from but I have been working on it for a short while now and this is the latest version. Minories in four Peco points.

 

 

Deep in a stone lined retaining wall cutting, in a town on the Pennines, a L&YR signal box controlling everything, and LMS and BR 2-6-4 tanks busy themselves all day with non-gangwayed coaches.  Some services in the hands of DMUs and even the odd type 2 locomotive. Now and then a few express passenger coaches that had been detatched from a service from London to a near by major city. If on the east side these could even be a section of the Yorkshire Pullman, two Pullmans and a BR Mk1. Parcels trains when there is a slack in the passenger workings.

 

Thanks to the modeller who thought of using a Peco single slip.

[Flying Pig]

Sorry I cannot find the thread where this idea of using a Peco single slip came from

 

I doubt it's a new idea, but it has certainly been suggested a number of times on RMweb and was actually used in one of the challenge layouts on the previous forum: Thameside (Modern Minories)

 

Edit: a Lanky radial tank could find a home on that layout too, Clive.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Flying Pig

[Satan's Goldfish]

^{I was, having possibly found a space for a small-medium shelf layout, (rather than the apa box style thing I was looking at) looking at the Newcastle Haymarket type of plan with just a single island platform- but then with a 'minories' style approach so each platform could be accessed . I've also developed a bit of a thing for the old first generation DMU's despite despising them back in the day,}

 

^{The original Newcastle Haymarket was a single line in/out but I felt even in the direst days of rationalisation that wasn't prototypical for an urban location, though I do believe right at the end of Bradford F. Sq before the new station was built there were two turnouts back to back with effectively albeit very short single line between the two turnouts .}

 

^{In its rebuilt version there was double track but each platform was not accessible from each line.}

 

^{So atm I'm thinking of taking the simple & (importantly narrow board width you could get) with the 2 platform island, but the flexibility and slightly less boring operation of having both platforms being accessible from a double track approach ? A scissors crossover would undoubtedly work for this but I doubt I could build one.}

 

Windsor Riverside station might interest you (i think it's that one anyway, i'm stretching my memory a little here!) as that is 2 tracks leading into 2 platforms (not an island) with a pair of crossovers leading into it so trains can arrive and leave from either platform. If it is the place i'm thinking of then there was a plan of it in Railway Modeller a couple of years ago, there may have even been another crossover in the station itself to allow locomotives to run-round, but i may also be making that up!

[Pacific231G]

Windsor Riverside station might interest you (i think it's that one anyway, i'm stretching my memory a little here!) as that is 2 tracks leading into 2 platforms (not an island) with a pair of crossovers leading into it so trains can arrive and leave from either platform. If it is the place i'm thinking of then there was a plan of it in Railway Modeller a couple of years ago, there may have even been another crossover in the station itself to allow locomotives to run-round, but i may also be making that up!

Your memory is quite correct. That is still the arrangement at Windsor Riverside though I think it used to have a third platform face. if you don't use a scissors a pair of crossovers is the minimum length that allows you to handle departures and arrivals from a double track line on more than one platform. If you arrange the crossovers the right way round though a the third platform doesn't requre any more length in the throat. That's what CJF did with the original Minories but with the two crossovers arranged in a particularly clever way. 

[Clive Mortimore]

 

 

I doubt it's a new idea, but it has certainly been suggested a number of times on RMweb and was actually used in one of the challenge layouts on the previous forum: Thameside (Modern Minories)

 

Edit: a Lanky radial tank could find a home on that layout too, Clive.

 

Hi Simon

 

A radial tank or tanks would look quite nice but my vision is a little later towards the end of steam.