Theory of General Minories

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

 

I also want to use Absolute Aspects superb MAS signalling but would it be double or triple aspect?  I assume by the signal box, there would be a stop signal, but would it have a platform number route indicator or the junction type with 'feathers'?

 

If you want to model the Widened Lines (a pretend Moorgate), then you need two-aspect signals; London Underground didn't use anything else. There is a caveat to this; they did use repeaters, and all four bay platform starters at Moorgate had these (only two roads were for the Widened Lines, though). The lights, from top to bottom, were green red green yellow, and the possible aspects were two greens, the top green and the yellow, and red (with the repeater showing nothing).

 

London Underground generally preferred feathers for main signals, but used theatre indicators with disk signals - there was one of these at Moorgate too; OE37, for entry into the loco siding. Shunting signals were all disks.

 

Harsig (https://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php) has a 1958 signalling diagram for the Widened Lines, with alterations, here: https://www.harsig.org/PDF/WidenedLines1958.pdf

[TravisM]

17 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

If you want to model the Widened Lines (a pretend Moorgate), then you need two-aspect signals; London Underground didn't use anything else. There is a caveat to this; they did use repeaters, and all four bay platform starters at Moorgate had these (only two roads were for the Widened Lines, though). The lights, from top to bottom, were green red green yellow, and the possible aspects were two greens, the top green and the yellow, and red (with the repeater showing nothing).

 

London Underground generally preferred feathers for main signals, but used theatre indicators with disk signals - there was one of these at Moorgate too; OE37, for entry into the loco siding. Shunting signals were all disks.

 

Harsig (https://www.harsig.org/Metropolitan.php) has a 1958 signalling diagram for the Widened Lines, with alterations, here: https://www.harsig.org/PDF/WidenedLines1958.pdf

 

I'm wondering if I should model as per the prototype Moorgate track plan, but then it get's away from the basic 'Minories' idea.  I think I'm going to model Freezer's plan but use Absolute Aspect's two aspect MAS signals, the stop signal with platform number theatre indicator and electric rather than disc shunt signals.  This would be done for operational ease rather than anything else.  Also I'm going to use Peco's Code 75 Bullhead rail and large radius point work.

[TonyMay]

What about Minories in TT120 then?

[Flying Pig]

44 minutes ago, TonyMay said:

What about Minories in TT120 then?

 

Good idea - CJF designed it for TT3 after all.  Would have to be modelled as a closed station if you wanted stay British, at least for the time being, but presumably there's suitable stock for a German or Czech (Polish? Russian?) layout?

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, TonyMay said:

What about Minories in TT120 then?

I’m wondering about that - hoping that something suitable stock wise might be around by the time I need to diwnsize.

Paul.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

18 hours ago, TonyMay said:

What about Minories in TT120 then?

 

17 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Good idea - CJF designed it for TT3 after all.

Indeed - when Heljan were planning a Class 31 in TT:120 the Minories suggestion was made in the Heljan thread (I think first of all by @Hroth).  A small Eastern Region flavoured London terminus using Class 31s (with an 08 as pilot) could be very convincing.

 

16 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

I’m wondering about that - hoping that something suitable stock wise might be around by the time I need to diwnsize.

Paul.

Hornby have the 08 on the way, and a Class 31 down the line.  I don’t think any Mk1 suburbans have been announced yet, or the NPCCS that could bring such a layout to life shunting parcels / newspaper trains.  A Mk1BG might be a good start?

 

Using the medium radius (36.3”) Peco unifrog points already available (SL-U1295 RH and SL-U1296 LH), I think Minories could look like this: the pointwork fits within 30” x 9”:

 

 
Drawn in Anyrail (2” grid).
 

Platform tracks would be extended to the left, and if a 12” or even 15” shelf were available I’d obviously recommend it.  Keith.

(PS:  while it’d be lovely to see, but I’m afraid it’s not on my bucket list of projects.  My personal amibition for a TT:120 layout is based on another ‘classic’ small layout design: Roy Link’s Oct ‘78 RM Plan “The Art of Compromise”:

 

 

I was drawn to this plan by Peco’s TT:120 launch, mainly by the GW Branch Line buildings, but also their promotion of TT:120 as a ‘no compromise scale’ - this seemed the obvious response 😀.  It helps I’d still like to build a GW Branch inspired by Fairford of course.  When the time comes it will need redrawing properly, but there’s no rush: the Pannier Tank I’ll need is a projected Phase 4 Hornby release).

 

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke

[woodenhead]

TT120 - all the stock for a small scale minories exists in N and it would take even less space:

• Class 31
• Class 08
• Mk1 suburbans
• Mk1 coaches
• NPCCS

Throw in some Dapol easishunts and you've got a nice hands free terminus.

 

[5BarVT]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

TT120 - all the stock for a small scale minories exists in N and it would take even less space:

• Class 31
• Class 08
• Mk1 suburbans
• Mk1 coaches
• NPCCS

Throw in some Dapol easishunts and you've got a nice hands free terminus.

 

So all I would be missing is someone capable of working with stuff that small!

Paul.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, 5BarVT said:

So all I would be missing is someone capable of working with stuff that small!

Paul.

And TT is that much bigger?

 

It's not that small, I can't see that well myself and I'm happily playing trains in N 😀

 

There may be quite a wait for a range of NPCCS, DMUs and suburbans in TT

Edited October 19, 2022 by woodenhead

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

There may be quite a wait for a range of NPCCS, DMUs and suburbans in TT

Yep. I was getting quite into the idea of building something in TT as a complete change from my usual vintage 0, but it is dawned on me when Heljan gave up that this is going to involve a very long wait for Type 1, 2 or 3 locos, and that the whole thing is entirely dependant upon whether Hornby’s punt comes good, so I’ve shelved that idea, which is appropriate really, because it was going to occupy a shelf.

 

 

[Flying Pig]

23 hours ago, woodenhead said:

TT120 - all the stock for a small scale minories exists in N and it would take even less space:

• Class 31
• Class 08
• Mk1 suburbans
• Mk1 coaches
• NPCCS

Throw in some Dapol easishunts and you've got a nice hands free terminus.

 

 

You forgot Class 101 and 108.  (Starts timer for the inevitable posts about boring DMUs...)

 

 

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

You forgot Class 101 and 108.  (Starts timer for the inevitable posts about boring DMUs...)

 

 

Which would be fine if Minories was located in Northern England, but it's not, so really it would be a class 105 (Bachmann now) or a class 125 which no-one has done.  A 101 might come via Lima is there is a CAD in Hornby's possession, maybe a 110 or a 117.  Anything else would be a new CAD which I don't think is on Hornby's initial roadmap.

[Flying Pig]

8 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Which would be fine if Minories was located in Northern England, but it's not, 

 

 

Whatever its inspiration, CJF's original article says nothing about where the station is, apart from it's being in a big city.  So a Sheffield Exchange-style scheme using Class 31s and 101 and 108 units is a perfectly valid implementation.  It could even be built over a weekend in 2mm scale, so I've heard.

 

20 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

so really it would be a class 105 (Bachmann now) or a class 125 which no-one has done.  A 101 might come via Lima is there is a CAD in Hornby's possession, maybe a 110 or a 117.  Anything else would be a new CAD which I don't think is on Hornby's initial roadmap.

 

I thought your list was of suitable stock in N?  Hence my addition of the two Farish units.

[t-b-g]

10 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

Whatever its inspiration, CJF's original article says nothing about where the station is, apart from it's being in a big city.  So a Sheffield Exchange-style scheme using Class 31s and 101 and 108 units is a perfectly valid implementation.  It could even be built over a weekend in 2mm scale, so I've heard.

 

 

I thought your list was of suitable stock in N?  Hence my addition of the two Farish units.

 

As Alan Whitehouse did with "Hallam Town" which is a rather lovely 2mm finescale Minories set in the Sheffield area. If you put Hallam Town 2mm layout into your favourite search engine it will bring up images and a video or two. But I guess you know about it due to your "build over a weekend" comment!

Edited October 20, 2022 by t-b-g
To add content

[woodenhead]

11 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

 

Whatever its inspiration, CJF's original article says nothing about where the station is, apart from it's being in a big city.  So a Sheffield Exchange-style scheme using Class 31s and 101 and 108 units is a perfectly valid implementation.  It could even be built over a weekend in 2mm scale, so I've heard.

 

 

I thought your list was of suitable stock in N?  Hence my addition of the two Farish units.

I've always seen Minories as a south eastern terminus with intense traffic, hence it's two track formation and very cramped design.  That sort of operation has never really been a feature outside of London where space was never at a premium, although there may be some exceptions.  With there being a real Minories in the east of London then you do conjur up a location that is a cross between KX, Liverpool St and Broad Street stations - giving the builder options of steam tank engines of Jazz operations, small diesels, diesel units or electric units of the third rail or overhead variety - dependent on period it could be a mix of several.

 

I've seen Hallam Town, it's a very well executed model.  At the moment I am abusing the basic model of Chester Northgate which is quite close to a Minories design for my own N gauge development with a flavour of all kinds of North West nonsense in the mid to late 60s.  As I've had to shorten the running length to make space within the room I am now adapting the plan more in line with Minories so that I can allow trains to enter on the correct line and exit on the other.

 

My simple comment about TT120 was that a Minories would be easier to execute in N at present that in TT unless you just want it with Mk1s passenger stock and it would take up less space than even TT.  It does rather upset that people say N is too small and somehow the answer all along for OO modellers starved of space being a reintroduction of TT which is only a little bigger than N.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

As Alan Whitehouse did with "Hallam Town" which is a rather lovely 2mm finescale Minories set in the Sheffield area. If you put Hallam Town 2mm layout into your favourite search engine it will bring up images and a video or two. But I guess you know about it due to your "build over a weekend" comment!

It is a wonderful layout.

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

As Alan Whitehouse did with "Hallam Town" which is a rather lovely 2mm finescale Minories set in the Sheffield area. If you put Hallam Town 2mm layout into your favourite search engine it will bring up images and a video or two. But I guess you know about it due to your "build over a weekend" comment!

 

I watched Alan and Mick Simpson building it at Railex.  It went together remarkably quickly albeit using all the mod cons of Easitrac and (I believe) Tim Horns baseboard kits.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I've always seen Minories as a south eastern terminus with intense traffic, hence it's two track formation and very cramped design.  That sort of operation has never really been a feature outside of London where space was never at a premium, although there may be some exceptions.  With there being a real Minories in the east of London then you do conjur up a location that is a cross between KX, Liverpool St and Broad Street stations - giving the builder options of steam tank engines of Jazz operations, small diesels, diesel units or electric units of the third rail or overhead variety - dependent on period it could be a mix of several.

 

We'll have to disagree about the location of Minories.  I'm watching your Chester Layout with interest.

 

I broadly agree with your comments about N and TT120.

[Clive Mortimore]

The location of a Minories type layout could be in any big city with some imagination. It does lead itself to a side street  in the city

London, both to the north east of the square mile and the north bank of the Thames after crossing from Surrey and Kent. It fits in quite well in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Bradford or Sheffield (as shown by Hallam Town and even my Sheff Ex Mk1) where multiple railways had routes to those cities. I have always considered a version located on the north bank of the Tyne, using those lovely LNER articulated EMUs, of course with a connecting ferry so people can make their first steps south and to civilisation. 

 

I am sure it would equally fit as a busy suburban station across the borders in both Glasgow and Edinburgh, Cardiff or Swansea and even in bandit country city of Bristol. 

[woodenhead]

I think it's the name with me, if you call it Minories it's London, but give it a different name and it can be anywhere.

 

Iain Rice did a nice version of Minories but as the country end of the line with goods facilities as well, perfect for a Jazz service.

[Lacathedrale]

19 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I think it's the name with me, if you call it Minories it's London, but give it a different name and it can be anywhere.

 

Iain Rice did a nice version of Minories but as the country end of the line with goods facilities as well, perfect for a Jazz service.

 

Harestone? A riff on Caterham's post 1900 layout if I remember but with half the throat off-scene?

 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The location of a Minories type layout could be in any big city with some imagination. It does lead itself to a side street  in the city

London, both to the north east of the square mile and the north bank of the Thames after crossing from Surrey and Kent. It fits in quite well in Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Bradford or Sheffield (as shown by Hallam Town and even my Sheff Ex Mk1) where multiple railways had routes to those cities. I have always considered a version located on the north bank of the Tyne, using those lovely LNER articulated EMUs, of course with a connecting ferry so people can make their first steps south and to civilisation. 

 

I am sure it would equally fit as a busy suburban station across the borders in both Glasgow and Edinburgh, Cardiff or Swansea and even in bandit country city of Bristol. 

 

In Liverpool it would be difficult because as well as Lime Street, there were two Minories-like termini too, Liverpool Central and Liverpool Exchange on either side of the city centre with Lime Street in the middle.  It would be possible to do the Minories track layout and depending on your chosen approach (cutting for Central, "viaduct" for Exchange), you could get away with naming your station after either  of the real stations.  Neither had goods facilities, so double plus good!

 

Central was CLC and Exchange L&Y, if I remember correctly...

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Hroth
Slight rearrangement

[woodenhead]

44 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Harestone? A riff on Caterham's post 1900 layout if I remember but with half the throat off-scene?

 

Harestone is the one, but he had all the throat on the scenic side, but it was only two platform faces rather than three, the third platform space became the goods/coal siding for the station.

[woodenhead]

39 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

In Liverpool it would be difficult because as well as Lime Street, there were two Minories-like termini too, Liverpool Central and Liverpool Exchange on either side of the city centre with Lime Street in the middle.  It would be possible to do the Minories track layout and depending on your chosen approach (cutting for Central, "viaduct" for Exchange), you could get away with naming your station after either  of the real stations.  Neither had goods facilities, so double plus good!

 

Central was CLC and Exchange L&Y, if I remember correctly...

 

I am glad I qualified my earlier comment about the Minories cramped style being more a London thing with there were exceptions.

 

Forgot about the stations in Liverpool that were not Lime Street 😀

 

Before I set upon a layout based in Chester I was thinking how I could do a Liverpool Central type layout - really a modellers dream layout when it was so cramped.

 

And of course there is Glasgow Queen Street - where trains would use both lines to arrive and depart and the crossovers were hidden in the tunnel.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I have always considered a version located on the north bank of the Tyne, using those lovely LNER articulated EMUs, of course with a connecting ferry so people can make their first steps south and to civilisation. 

 

The east end bays of Newcastle Central cry out to be modelled as a bitsa and seem to have handled a variety of services including North and South Tyneside electrics.  You could get in some light engine movements of big stuff to and from Heaton too.  Setting a convincing boundary so you didn't have to model all the diamonds would be a bit tricky though.