East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[Nearholmer]

If you live locally, you’ll know how long we’ve been waiting for this. Rome wasn’t built in a day, I appreciate, but this job could have been done quicker, if the funding stream had been thicker.

 

This thread is already almost a decade old!

Edited February 12, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Davexoc]

They'll be fighting the vegetation if they don't get tracks down soon. Nature doesn't hang around for long....

[Tony Teague]

My impression, from looking around the Calvert area is that HS2 is actually a long way behind EWR - but then EWR had a pre-existing formation, albeit one that needed a lot of work. So it definately looks like this area might be the last to get joined up.

Tony

[lmsforever]

19 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

If you live locally, you’ll know how long we’ve been waiting for this. Rome wasn’t built in a day, I appreciate, but this job could have been done quicker, if the funding stream had been thicker.

 

This thread is already almost a decade old!

Agree  this line should never have been closed it has always been  important but government was not interested in it and railways in general .

[woodenhead]

Up in Manchester there are currently arguments forming about HS2B and it's impact on the Ashton Metrolink connection from 2024 - HS2 want to sever the line for 2 years whilst they build HS2 - first the local councils heard was 2 weeks ago, to say they are not happy with the prospect of losing a key line for at least 2 years is an understatement.  It will also affect the Ethihad stadium and the new arena being built as both are served by that line.

[simon b]

I'm not an expert by any means, but they still have the Gawcott underpass and it's embankments to build before they can lay any track out from Bicester. What I dont know is how much of that work is to be carried out by EWR, I know the bridge over HS2 itself is built by HS2 but where the boundary between the 2 works are isnt clear.

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, simon b said:

I'm not an expert by any means, but they still have the Gawcott underpass and it's embankments to build before they can lay any track out from Bicester. What I dont know is how much of that work is to be carried out by EWR, I know the bridge over HS2 itself is built by HS2 but where the boundary between the 2 works are isnt clear.

 

I'm not sure but I suspect we are talking about the same location, which I think is known as Gawcott Road, Calvert - Gawcott itself is several miles to the north of EWR, very close to Buckingham; HS2 is shown crossing EWR in an underpass at this point.

 

There are two plans downloadable from the HS2 website at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-plan-and-profile-maps-post-house-of-commons-select-committee-2016-country-south

 

These are labelled as 'Calvert' and 'Calvert Infrastructure Maintenance Depot' and it looks pretty clear to me that HS2 rather than EWR are indeed responsible for everything from the bridge that I was standing on (which is labelled as ' Charndon Lodge underbridge') right through to at least Addison Road overbridge to the east, mainly because this area includes the HS2 Infrastructure Depot AND the link from EWR in the Aylesbury direction (if this ever gets built!).

 

The matching EWR site is very informative but is completely blank as to what is going on between Twyford and Winslow - which also seems to confirm that HS2 are to deal with this missing bit.

 

Tony

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

 

I'm not sure but I suspect we are talking about the same location, which I think is known as Gawcott Road, Calvert - Gawcott itself is several miles to the north of EWR, very close to Buckingham; HS2 is shown crossing EWR in an underpass at this point.

 

There are two plans downloadable from the HS2 website at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-plan-and-profile-maps-post-house-of-commons-select-committee-2016-country-south

 

These are labelled as 'Calvert' and 'Calvert Infrastructure Maintenance Depot' and it looks pretty clear to me that HS2 rather than EWR are indeed responsible for everything from the bridge that I was standing on (which is labelled as ' Charndon Lodge underbridge') right through to at least Addison Road overbridge to the east, mainly because this area includes the HS2 Infrastructure Depot AND the link from EWR in the Aylesbury direction (if this ever gets built!).

 

The matching EWR site is very informative but is completely blank as to what is going on between Twyford and Winslow - which also seems to confirm that HS2 are to deal with this missing bit.

 

Tony

Thanks for link, that does clear things up a little. 

 

We are indeed taking about the same bridge, but the western side is what I wasnt sure of. Looking at those plans it looks like the boundary is just before main street to the west, so the entire embankment is to be built by HS2. This is the bridge you were standing on, with main street in the distance. 

 

 

 

I'm sure there is a good reason, but why raise the EWR trackbed rather than lower HS2? 

[Trog]

5 minutes ago, simon b said:

 

I'm sure there is a good reason, but why raise the EWR trackbed rather than lower HS2? 

 

Lowering track is rarely a good idea as drainage of the resulting dip can be a problem. As for why put the hump in EWR perhaps as it will be a slower line they can change the gradients faster so making the hump shorter and cheaper.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Trog

[Nearholmer]

The old GC alignment is heading uphill towards a fairly large cutting at Finmere. When the GC built it, they took a huge amount of soil out of the hill, and used it to create fill, and a decently smooth gradient, south of Finmere. Messing about significantly with the level of HS2 at Calvert would screw-up that quite good profile, which is a bad idea from an energy perspective with heavy trains going fast. 
 

EWR is a tramway by comparison, light trains going slowly, so less energy penalty to going over a hump.

 

This topo map gives an idea of what the lie of the land is.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Mike Storey]

36 minutes ago, Trog said:

 

Lowering track is rarely a good idea as drainage of the resulting dip can be a problem. As for why put the hump in EWR perhaps as it will be a slower line they can change the gradients faster so making the hump shorter and cheaper.

 

...and, of course, the HS2 vertical alignment will have been designed and legally approved (TWAO 2017), long before the EWR plans were approved (2020). No legal argument possible there, without either significant recompense or a change in T&W Act provisions, needing another Parliamentary Act, delaying matters at least another couple of years, or probably much more.

 

That is why HS2 have priority over that section of the line.

 

But it continues to make me laugh, when people say they are fed up with the time this has taken. Even if it had been built by now (which is in practical terms, let alone design, consultation and approval and funding terms, extremely unlikely), it would now be shut for three years, at least, whilst HS2 was constructed. It is more pertinent to say that HS2 should have been built by now, but we all know where that leads .....

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Well, laugh away. If the Bicester-Bletchley line had been "up and going", HS2 works would have been designed differently. It does not take a three year severance to thread one railway under or over another another, if the objective is to continue service, and the whole effort is planned accordingly. Doing things at reasonable pace isnt necessarily more expensive either, because the longer a thing takes, the longer the "marching army" of supporting services has to be kept going.

 

 

[Mike Storey]

I concur, but that same assumption would presume that HS2 would have been designed, approved and constructed a whole lot earlier too. Those mechanisms simply do not operate that quickly in this modern age, and in this British style of democracy. 

 

I reviewed the early pages of the thread, and noted that several people (in 2014 especially) decried the "fact" that it (EWR) had not been (re-)built already. By whom, and at what level? The general electorate voted for a "small government, low taxes" party, albeit shared with a party of a different hue for a while. It is a minor miracle that such schemes have seen the light of day, given the same party is in power (not that the previous party did much better for rail investment, even though there was some intention there). So, the fact that both HS2 and EWR have not only survived, but prospered, in recent years, is fantastic. To decry it is not only ignoring the political context in which it has come about, but it also completely ignores the enormous challenges it faced to begin with.

 

That is why I continue to laugh, but with tears in my eyes.

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

To decry it is not only ignoring the political context in which it has come about, but it also completely ignores the enormous challenges it faced to begin with.

I didn’t decry either; I expressed impatience, and will continue to do so until both railways are ones I can actually ride on.

 

EWR has had so many ‘opening dates’ publicised down the years that impatience and disbelief are about the only emotions appropriate until the glorious day dawns (although whether Aylesbury will get included in the glory we still don’t really know, and east of Bletchley is still shrouded in mists of uncertainty, let alone east of Bedford).

 

 

[2750Papyrus]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The old GC alignment is heading uphill towards a fairly large cutting at Finmere. When the GC built it, they took a huge amount of soil out of the hill, and used it to create fill, and a decently smooth gradient, south of Finmere. Messing about significantly with the level of HS2 at Calvert would screw-up that quite good profile, which is a bad idea from an energy perspective with heavy trains going fast. 
 

EWR is a tramway by comparison, light trains going slowly, so less energy penalty to going over a hump.

 

This topo map gives an idea of what the lie of the land is.

 

There's a very attractive stone built house in Newton

 

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The old GC alignment is heading uphill towards a fairly large cutting at Finmere. When the GC built it, they took a huge amount of soil out of the hill, and used it to create fill, and a decently smooth gradient, south of Finmere. Messing about significantly with the level of HS2 at Calvert would screw-up that quite good profile, which is a bad idea from an energy perspective with heavy trains going fast. 
 

EWR is a tramway by comparison, light trains going slowly, so less energy penalty to going over a hump.

 

This topo map gives an idea of what the lie of the land is.

 

There's a lovely stone built house being renovated in Newton Morrell, which I often pass on my way west if I want to avoid the M4.  I first noticed it in the 1990s but the works are still ongoing!  It somehow seems appropriate to EWR and the old GCR route.

[Nearholmer]

I know exactly which one you mean. It must be a one man job, in his spare time, given how many decades its spread over.

[Arun Sharma]

3 hours ago, simon b said:

Thanks for link, that does clear things up a little. 

 

We are indeed taking about the same bridge, but the western side is what I wasnt sure of. Looking at those plans it looks like the boundary is just before main street to the west, so the entire embankment is to be built by HS2. This is the bridge you were standing on, with main street in the distance. 

 

 

 

I'm sure there is a good reason, but why raise the EWR trackbed rather than lower HS2? 

In the early pages of this thread there were photographs showing that waterlogging had occured over much of the trackbed West of Winslow. If there was a propensity to flood then raising the trackbed seems to be a good idea.

[Ron Ron Ron]

HS2 crosses the EW Rail line here.....

 

 

 

 

 

Calvert GCR Station on the HS2 alignment......

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[chris p bacon]

11 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

There's a very attractive stone built house in Newton

 

There's a lovely stone built house being renovated in Newton Morrell, which I often pass on my way west if I want to avoid the M4.  I first noticed it in the 1990s but the works are still ongoing!  It somehow seems appropriate to EWR and the old GCR route.

Is it this one ?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.971512,-1.0905099,3a,90y,114.51h,106.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFnPLAX9bKYsG7379_bWgXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

If so, I have passed this on the way West to visit family since the late 70's, Work started in about 1984 and was still ongoing when I last passed by.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

That’s the one.

 

I moved up this way in 1982, and it was a in tumbledown condition then, possibly vacant, and has reached “des res” condition probably within the past four or five years.

[woodenhead]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Well, laugh away. If the Bicester-Bletchley line had been "up and going", HS2 works would have been designed differently. It does not take a three year severance to thread one railway under or over another another, if the objective is to continue service, and the whole effort is planned accordingly. Doing things at reasonable pace isnt necessarily more expensive either, because the longer a thing takes, the longer the "marching army" of supporting services has to be kept going.

 

 

Given NR slid a box under the ECML with just a nine day closure for Werrington, there is no excuse really for multi-year delays because of HS2.  It takes the will to think the problem through and come up with a solution.

 

But HS2 seems to take a different approach and as with Manchester Metrolink, delaying or simply closing a line for very extended periods seems to be ok.  It's a rather arrogant approach if you ask me and not even something experienced in the railway mania of the 1800s when lines were springing up, connecting and crossing all over the country.

[Nearholmer]

Both HS2 and EWR can default to "bad neighbour" behaviour at times, exercising their powers to "stop up" other things to the absolute maximum allowable duration, when actually a bit of thought and no more expenditure could minimise "stopping up". I think its laziness, or lack of motivation from the top, more than anything else. Many have been the arguments about this locally, where EWR shut footpaths and bridleways for far longer than they needed, "because we can", and it took MPs and Sir Peter Hendy to get them to be a bit more thoughtful about it ....... even now they've needlessly got a stretch closed!

[jamie92208]

58 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Given NR slid a box under the ECML with just a nine day closure for Werrington, there is no excuse really for multi-year delays because of HS2.  It takes the will to think the problem through and come up with a solution.

 

But HS2 seems to take a different approach and as with Manchester Metrolink, delaying or simply closing a line for very extended periods seems to be ok.  It's a rather arrogant approach if you ask me and not even something experienced in the railway mania of the 1800s when lines were springing up, connecting and crossing all over the country.

Exactly.  The Midland had to raise a bridge over the NER when they were building the approach from the S&C in the 1870's.  They were granted IIRC, just 8 hours for the work.

 

Jamie

[Edwin_m]

Do we know that the work by HS2 is actually delaying the completion of EWR?  If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter.  

[Northmoor]

46 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Given NR slid a box under the ECML with just a nine day closure for Werrington, there is no excuse really for multi-year delays because of HS2.  It takes the will to think the problem through and come up with a solution.

 

But HS2 seems to take a different approach and as with Manchester Metrolink, delaying or simply closing a line for very extended periods seems to be ok.  It's a rather arrogant approach if you ask me and not even something experienced in the railway mania of the 1800s when lines were springing up, connecting and crossing all over the country.

I'm considering writing a paper on the building of Penmanshiel Deviation.

It was an extreme situation - replacing existing, destroyed infrastructure rather than infrastructure expansion, so more like the Dawlish rebuild than HS2 or EWR -  but it could be an examplar of how things can be built quickly when there is a collective will to get the job done and the organisation involved is not looking for reasons not to build them.