andyman7 Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Some of you will be aware that until about 1955 Tri-ang Railways were made using cellulose acetate for the plastic, and that this material, being somewhat less stable than polystyrene, results in the models warping to various degrees. This is most pronounced in the roofs of vans and coaches, all surviving coaches in particular featuring distinctly banana shaped roofs. All my collecting life (30+) years I have been familiar with this. My question is, with the youngest of these items now approaching 60 years old, how soon was it after manufacture before they began distorting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2012 ISTR less than a decade - maybe a lot less. I had a friend with a Tri-ang princess (which seemed dire compared to my secondhand 3-rail Hornby Dublo Duchess) and some very short corridor coaches (ditto) in the late '50s, and I'm sure things weren't quite as Tri-ang had intended even then, with the roofs being awkward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 It wasn`t only the coaches,most of Tri-angs buildings warped as well as the early grey based track.If you can get hold of Pat Hammonds History of Tri-ang Vol.1,theres some real beuties in there. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 It took about five minutes! Well that's an exaggeration, but I can be remember being warned off Tri-ang in the mid-fifties, "Because they warp!". Some of their weird colours* were off putting as well, even at the tender age of around ten. *Orange well wagons for example! Tri-ang switched to polystyrene about 1956, but odd items lingered on. Some years ago, I bought a TC diesel switcher, which had an OK body, but a curvy battery box underneath. Roofs are always bent (cf Farish pullmans) and usually the rest of the body too. It is rare to find a van or open wagon where the planking of the ends is even near straight. (This also applies to Trackmaster examples.) The tank wagons seem immune; were these the first models in polystyrene? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Hi, My first train set consisted of a jinty and a couple of the very short LMS coaches. These were in Acetate as was the pale green Princess I got shortly afterwards. This was IIRC Christmas 1954. The Princess body was warped a bit and had split the buffer beam within less than 5 years. I had a couple of the better ones by then so the chassis went into a cheap and cheerful 2 rail conversion of a dublo A4 purchased for a few shillings from a school friend who had burnt out the motor. I tried to go "scale" around 1961 by which time the original jinty was pretty far gone. It donated it,s chassis to model railway research, I fitted it with Romford wheels and used it under a scratch built tinplate J37. This was not good enough to convert when I tried EM in 1963. The motor was recovered and given a 5 pole armature built into an NBR 4-4-0T. I think it is now in a plastic drawer on my bench labeled "spare motors". I think that it is possible that even in acetate tank wagons would be OK. A moulding of a closed cylinder should be resistant to warping. best wishes, Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted January 2, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 2, 2013 Did they all warp? I have a Princess of which the tender is scrap, but the last time I saw the loco (ITRO 10 years ago!) it was OK. The coaches weren't the earliest LMS type ones, but the shortest of the second type which I'm sure are polystyrene. Maybe the loco is from a change over period, it was my elder brother's so I'm not sure of it's age, I'm 6 years younger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The second generation (6") coaches were produced for junior train sets until at least 1961, so could easily be in styrene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Rovex changed the Acetate mouldings to polystyrene in 1956 except for the signal box which was changed in about 1952 so anything that warps was manufactured before 1956. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 The Princess body seems to show warping effects less than the Jinty (these are always curvy) possibly due to stresses, or rather lack of them, in the moulding*. I have the misfortune (they came in job lots and I haven't the heart to throw them out) to own several short LMS coaches, including a couple of Rovex ones. Only one is straight, which presumably is polystyrene. (These are a good source of spare buffers!) *Maybe I just haven't noticed, the TC pacific and Baltic tank certainly suffer, as does the tender underframe. TC rolling stock seems OK too. Apart from Tri-ang, Trix plastic items from the fifties suffer too; in particular the Cadet 0-4-0T body and the signal box roof. I have a shunter's truck with a bent body. And there are all those windows which have shrunk and/or rippled (Dublo, Trix. Tri-ang, Farish ..........). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Thanks - it sounds as if the stuff made in cellulose acetate went bendy very quickly.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Late last year, sold some " shorties " which were STILL straight - they had been stored with elastic bands wrapped around them !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Possibly polystyrene? I reckon it would take more than elastic bands to keep cellulose acetate straight. As I said I have several, one of which is straight. Of course, storage conditions also affect how much/quickly warping occurs. Incorrect storage will make polystyrene warp too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Prior to my Triang Electric train set circa 1955 I had an oval of hand made steel track, a Trackmaster 0-6-2 and a Graham Farish suburban composite from around 1953. The 'cast' bogies disintegrated quite quickly but the coach lived on with Triang / Hornby bogies. I would guess these early coaches were acetate but kept their shape because of the metal roofs and metal underfame. Much later in 1983 I bought another original Graham Farish 'orange' brake coach second hand for £3.00 from the Kings X Model shop. I stripped the coach down to clean and repaint only to find that the coach was horribly twisted and would not fit back together. £3.00 was not a lot of money so I put the body shell into a warm oven - just long enough to 'soften' it allowing the body to be bent back straight. It stayed put another fifteen years and this picture shows the two coaches prior to successfully selling on that well known auction site. Hopefully they are still out there giving good service.Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Apparently Farish coaches are not actually cellulose acetate, but a close relative, which suffers from the same problem. The suburban coaches seem to hold their shape better than the Pullmans, which are always warped to some degree (not helped by the cast floor being prone to expansion through mazak pest - the bogies and wagon underframes (not the bodies strangely) tend to disintegrate for the same reason. The later '60s series coaches are polystyrene and remain straight, though the mazak is still suspect - I have seen a 94xx pannier body showing signs of decay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 I have a Tri-ang water tower which I received new about 60 years ago. It is a very strange shape but doesn't leak and still supplies all the water my locos need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted January 13, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2013 I have one of those Farish coaches, and presume it must be a later one as it is straight, and looks like it is black polystyrene. Bought as a kit from, I think, Embsay in about 1973. I also have a pullman, not sure if it's Farish - matchboarded lowers? It looked fine last time I saw it 11 years ago or so! Hi Manxman.....#waves# Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 Farish Pullmans are matchboarded. Later ones have pin-point bearings (Very free-running, which is the opposite of the plain bearing stock which is very stiff). A floor unit (originally mazak (often pest ridden) and later plastic) with seats incorporated and battery boxes/ truss rod units fitted separately. one piece body moulding with out gangways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 My father's 1956 Princess and coaches are fine - they must be the first of the polystyrene batch! Some of the Minic vehicles also warped - I think there are very few double deckers around without some warping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosiesBoss Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Hello everyone, I received my first train set - a black Princess Elizabeth with two short coaches and a circle of grey track - in Christmas 1955. I believe the set had been on "lay-by" for quite some time, as it cost my father the equivalent of 2 weeks' wages. Given that we live in Sydney, Australia, the set could have been made as early as 1954. The coaches distorted over the next ten years. However, the loco body is still straight. She still runs well and easily pulls an 8-coach formation. I believe my loco is a fairly early example, as it lacks a coupling on the front bogie. The tender originally had a type 2 coupling. I hope these observations are of some interest. Regards, Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Emmerson Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Cellulose acetate suffers two kinds of degradation: the warping already mentioned (plasticiser migration) and also weeping or 'liquification'. The latter can be caused by chemical factors: Cellulose acetate (and nitrate) releases acidic products as it deteriorates. Due to distinctive smell this deterioration has been called ‘vinegar syndrome’ (vinegar is acetic acid of course). This smell is often the first warning that CA is breaking down and can happen in as little as 24 hours.The other cause is physical: The ester plasticisers can weep. These can create greater acidic environments as well as warping of the plastic. Weeping often affects the 'stag's antlers' cradles on old black telephone (Telephone No. 232 pattern, pyramid shape) and cinema films. Effectively it is irreversible. Interesting technical pages on plastics conservation and de-warping here: http://www.plastiquarian.com/index.php?id=7&subid=127 http://www.plastiquarian.com/index.php?id=7&subid=134 http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/194076-is-it-possible-to-straighten-a-warped-celluoid-cellulose-acetate-barrel/ (talks about heating on a gas stove; a hairdryer might be less risky!) http://www.frogpenguin.com/frog/05_conclusion.html (unwarping a Frog model aircraft in very hot water) https://sites.google.com/site/framematerials/cellulose-acetate http://www.ehow.com/how_4443705_straighten-bent-breyers-leg.html (says "Don't use the hair dryer method of straightening a bent part unless you have no other choice. The chances of getting burned are much higher than for the boiled water method." I'm sure there is more on the WWW but cures have been achieved! Andy Emmerson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Very interesting, but I wonder how permanent the cure is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 My father's 1956 Princess and coaches are fine - they must be the first of the polystyrene batch! The change ocurred around 1955/56 so this makes sense. Having been picking up these early models (very cheaply), it is noticeable that my examples of the very early Rovex coaches with Mk1 couplings are very warped, whilst later Tri-ang issues are less distorted. I also have an absolutely straight pair which must be polystyrene (from 1956, the last year these appear in the catalogue). Environmental considerations certainly seem to be a factor.I don't know about others' experiences but I've had no issues with 'weeping' of the early plastic on the Triang models, its just distortion. It's interesting to see that the 'conservation' guidelines accord with good storage practice for a model collection anyway - i.e. steady room temperature, don't leave exposed to sunlight, don't wrap in plastic or with rubber bands etc. It is noticeable which items have been stored in lofts/garages and which haven't! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Rovex changed the Acetate mouldings to polystyrene in 1956 except for the signal box which was changed in about 1952 so anything that warps was manufactured before 1956. Ray. The first items to be made in Polystyrene were all "thin" mouldings, which warped badly. The R.70 Level Crossing, the yellow canopies from the R.60 Ticket Office and R.73 Island Platform Canopy Set (The canopies were clip in fittings, so were also used with CA Plastic buildings.) were mentioned in Pat Hammonds books. As Pat says, the CA and Poly Plastics were not glued together, so if the yellow windows of the Signal Box went to Poly, then the rest of the building should also be Poly. It took about five minutes! Well that's an exaggeration, but I can be remember being warned off Tri-ang in the mid-fifties, "Because they warp!". Some of their weird colours* were off putting as well, even at the tender age of around ten. *Orange well wagons for example! Tri-ang switched to polystyrene about 1956, but odd items lingered on. Some years ago, I bought a TC diesel switcher, which had an OK body, but a curvy battery box underneath. Roofs are always bent (cf Farish pullmans) and usually the rest of the body too. It is rare to find a van or open wagon where the planking of the ends is even near straight. (This also applies to Trackmaster examples.) The tank wagons seem immune; were these the first models in polystyrene? I have an early transfer logo CA R.12 Shell BP tank wagon. The barrel has split due to distortion... Did they all warp? I have a Princess of which the tender is scrap, but the last time I saw the loco (ITRO 10 years ago!) it was OK. The coaches weren't the earliest LMS type ones, but the shortest of the second type which I'm sure are polystyrene. Maybe the loco is from a change over period, it was my elder brother's so I'm not sure of it's age, I'm 6 years younger. There were indeed change over models. The only consideration was that the two plastics didn't really glue together... The second generation (6") coaches were produced for junior train sets until at least 1961, so could easily be in styrene. The second generation coaches were 7" (originally BR Coach in Crimson and Cream. No Brake vehicles made). These were made in CA, and later ones in Poly. They have the Mk1 (Open Loop) couplings. The "Primary Series" coaches are in plain Red, or plain Green. These have MKIII (Closed Loop) Couplings, and are Poly. The Princess body seems to show warping effects less than the Jinty (these are always curvy) possibly due to stresses, or rather lack of them, in the moulding*. I have the misfortune (they came in job lots and I haven't the heart to throw them out) to own several short LMS coaches, including a couple of Rovex ones. Only one is straight, which presumably is polystyrene. (These are a good source of spare buffers!) *Maybe I just haven't noticed, the TC pacific and Baltic tank certainly suffer, as does the tender underframe. TC rolling stock seems OK too. Apart from Tri-ang, Trix plastic items from the fifties suffer too; in particular the Cadet 0-4-0T body and the signal box roof. I have a shunter's truck with a bent body. And there are all those windows which have shrunk and/or rippled (Dublo, Trix. Tri-ang, Farish ..........). The Rovex coaches had the bogies held on with screws, that tapped into the roof. The ones I have are pretty straight. The roof is held down by the screws. The very last LMS coaches were made in Poly. My father's 1956 Princess and coaches are fine - they must be the first of the polystyrene batch! Some of the Minic vehicles also warped - I think there are very few double deckers around without some warping. That would be the Minic "Push and Go" models? I have an LT bus which has bent a bit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Just found this classic example. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-Triang-LMS-0-6-0-Steam-Locomotive-Assorted-Wagons-/160992864982?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item257bec2ad6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium New Haven Neil Posted March 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 27, 2013 Thanks for the clarifications - my coaches are indeed two of the crimson and cream ones, and one plain red, all seem OK, whereas the Princess tender has split along it's length above the frames. My pullman is confirmed as a Farish then, with mazak underframe that is OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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