coaling stage incline

[ohanlonmartin]

I got some advice on the card modelling pages regarding the slope/incline leading up to the loading level of the Metcalfe coaling stage and a minimum of 700mm distence in track to a 50mm loading stage height was receommende but a longer rung of track on the incline would obviously look better (ratio quoted was 14x1 hence 50mmx14 = 700mm). Scale is "00".

 

As I can get between 900-1,000 mm of track run I am happy enough that it will "look" ok, my queries are;

 

1.   How to get the track to bend/graduate at the point where the slope/incline meets the horizontal plane of the loading stage?

 

2.   What the base of the slope/incline would consist of, an earth embankment, brick or whatever, I hope to get the layout set in the LMS era leading to BR.

 

3.   How much space should be left on the overhang to store empty wagons, would enough room for 2-3 wagons be ok?

 

Thanks for any help in advance.

[Kris]

3.   How much space should be left on the overhang to store empty wagons, would enough room for 2-3 wagons be ok?

Are you sure it's empties on the overhang not fulls?

[ohanlonmartin]

Are you sure it's empties on the overhang not fulls?

Apologies.........

 

Yes you are right, I should have said full, while I am not fanatical about things a realistic and workable standard to my layout wil do me.

 

Thanks

 

Martin

[Karhedron]

The normal suggestion is that 1:30 is the steepest you can go and if you can make it 1:40 it will be better. Of course it is one of those things where compression may be necessary. Do you plan to actually have wagons shunted up the incline or is it purely scenic? If it is non-operating then you can get away with making it a bit steeper than in real life.

 

If it needs to work then try experimenting with your regular shunter and see how steep it can reliably propel the wagons without slipping.

 

I am not sure how the LMS built its ramps. On the GWR an earth bank was common, often with a bit of retaining walling at the steepest section near the coaling stage. The preserved example at Didcot shows this quite nicely.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36928008@N08/4964071854/

[ohanlonmartin]

The normal suggestion is that 1:30 is the steepest you can go and if you can make it 1:40 it will be better. Of course it is one of those things where compression may be necessary. Do you plan to actually have wagons shunted up the incline or is it purely scenic? If it is non-operating then you can get away with making it a bit steeper than in real life.

 

If it needs to work then try experimenting with your regular shunter and see how steep it can reliably propel the wagons without slipping.

 

I am not sure how the LMS built its ramps. On the GWR an earth bank was common, often with a bit of retaining walling at the steepest section near the coaling stage. The preserved example at Didcot shows this quite nicely.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36928008@N08/4964071854/

 

Thanks that's a great pic,

 

Perhaps the incline construction wasn't exactly standard and had a bit to do with the local terrain and building materials available?

 

Martin

[ohanlonmartin]

Thanks that's a great pic,

 

Perhaps the incline construction wasn't exactly standard and had a bit to do with the local terrain and building materials available?

 

Martin

 

Oops...........

 

Forgot to answer the question, if I can get it working so much the better but if space is too critical I will just leave it as a scenic feature, if my reading of your gradient suggestion is correct would that mean I need 2,000mm (50x40) to get to a loading height of 50mm from the baseboard level?

[Guest stuartp]

Re: fulls -v- empties - this other pic of Didcot shows fulls waiting in the overhang:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6814135795/

 

They will have been allowed to roll in by gravity with maybe a bit of help from a pinch bar to get them rolling. Presumably the empties were likewise rolled down the slope to be collected by the shunter.

 

1 in 30 is usually recommmended as a minimum but coaling stages are a bit of a special case and often much steeper than ordinary lines, you only need to be able to push a few wagons up at a time. You will need to keep the bends as gentle as possible as 0-6-0s will see-saw at the top of the ramp and the centre wheelset will lift at the bottom. The more space you have to do this the shallower you can make the bends (or use an 0-4-0 !). Flexitrack will bend vertically (Peco Streamline will anyway) which setrack may not.

[ohanlonmartin]

Thanks Stuart,

[LNER4479]

Hi Martin,

 

If it helps, I'm attaching photos of one I built on my previous layout (feel free to have a good laugh - I don't mind!) which picks up on a few issues you mention.

 

 

Mine was purely scenic (ie nothing ever actually went up or down it) and so the gradient was considerably steeper than those quoted to fit in the space available (probably about 1:10, although I never actually measured it). I introduced a little bit of grade separation, ie the loco road itself actually descended down slightly from the turnout for the ramp which helped fit it in.

 

Regarding earth or brick built ramp you can see mine is a mixture of both! As a general rule, an earth bank can only slope at about 1:1 (ie 45 deg) without becoming unstable; hence I showed a brick wall up until the height at which the 1:1 slope can take over. This (coaling stage) was based on an actual prototype and I did study pictures of the original and it followed this principle.

 

Finally, I added a siding alongside (as the prototype had). This would have been where the empties were stored after going up the ramp or the loaded ones before going up the ramp. Usually a depot had a siding or two for wagons like this.

[ohanlonmartin]

Thanks LNER, a picture paints a thousand words.......

 

I believe I can get approx 2,000mm of a run of track to make the incline but to do so means it will be on a sweep so we will see what happens on a trial run with stock and loco/s.

 

At some point (no pun intended) I hope to pluck up courage and post a photo' and maybe evena track plan of the layout, it is completely non-representative of anywhere and entirely being built for fun but with  wish to make it workable and realistic, hopefully after a more than (on and off) 30 year lead in I can actually get it completed, it has been a vey long and at times expensive learnning curve.

 

My re-awakened interst in the hobby has been greatly inspired by this forums topics and gaining access to a local railway modelling club.

 

Martin

[TonyMay]

Most of the Metcalfe kits are for Midland and the S&C.  The coal stage is loosely based on the MR standard design; the shed is based loosely on Hellifield's straight shed.  Looking at photographs however there are obvious differences, and Hellifield's 4 road shed has been reduced to two roads and about half its length.  The Midland tended to go for roundhouses (see Barrow Hill), but had quite a few straights as well.  Hellifield had standardish coal stage but was unusual in that it was wood rather than brick (and in later years it fell apart somewhat).  The Metcalfe kit represents the more standard brick.  The ramp at Barrow Hill survives (although the coal stage fell down/was demolished) - the whole thing is 530 feet or just over 2 metres in 4mm scale from the point, add on a 100ft headshunt and it's 2.5 metres or so.  ouch.

 

When you're having to compress everything else though, especially in OO, trying to recreate the ramp into the stage is a nightmare.  The ramp ends up dominating the planning, especially if you want to put it where it should go, which is just outside the shed, on its own loop (to allow access to the shed when there's engines being coaled).  And of course you can't have tracks going across the ramp, and because it's a higher level it should go further back in the baseboard so as to not get in the way of everything else...

 

My considered advice is to ditch the ramp completely.  The Midland did have level coal stages (e.g. Manningham, Lincoln), and some stages were later replaced or supplemented by more "modern" equipment, either a big full on cenotaph (mostly at the bigger sheds (or in the case of Hasland, ones not suffering from massive subsidence problems)), or a smaller arrangement usually consisting of an angled conveyor belt to raise the coal and deposit it in the tender using gravity.  No doubt someone can provide photographs.  The latter certainly would make an interesting model if animated.  The key point is that such take up a lot less room, essentially being the length of a loop around an engine, and the width of about four tracks.  Best thing might be to kitbash the Metcalfe kit into a level example, or there's a crappy superquick kit of a cenotaph.

[DCB]

The coal stage shunt always was a struggle in steam days so the max gradient is governed by how steep a gradient your shed pilot can propel a rake of fulls up.

 

The vertical bend at the foot and top of the gradient is more awkward as certainly old fashioned steel code 100 Peco streamline will not readily bend vertically, well I can't get it to anyway.  Code 75 might be better but I ended up using some ancient fibre sleepered GEM brass track to get nice even transitions to and from a vicious 1 in 24 ish gradient.

 

Dont forget the catch point at the bottom of the slope, ( and the terrified cleaner holding the lever over as the pilot slithers down the slope.

 

  60103s gradient looks more like 1 in 12  but changing the coal stage wagons is an interesting shunt so why not do it?  I guess full size coal wagons may well have been held on their handbrakes on the gradient but modelling that is going to be a challenge, even with DCC. 

[ohanlonmartin]

Thanks TonyMay and DavidCBroad,

 

I did get that incline completed for the coaling stage, albeit on a 180 degree curve and it looks right alongside the loco sheds and pits, as soon as I can get myself organised hopefully I can get a couple of photo's posted here.

 

At the moment I am in the middle of insulating the loft where I have the layout in and that is proving a bigger task than I anticipated or foresaw, recommended to use was the 80mm sheets of Kingspan for insertion into the roof rafters of the entire loft at a cost of approx. €1,000 for the sheets alone!

 

That was one shock but the bigger one was studying the rafters and noting they were fitted less than straight (some were actually bowed) when assembled and fastened by the slats for the roof tiles with the result that any sheets being cut to fit between them would be practically impossible to get a tight fit with.

 

To the rescue came my local builders provider who very kindly offered me for free lots of lengths of 100mm square "skids" of insulation foam board which are apparently used to allow fork lifts to get under palettes of sheets of plywood etc., a lot of work in transporting and unloading and storing hundreds of those up in the loft but the savings on money will justify that.

 

Typical me but all this construction work is only now being done after the layout has been laid, carts before horses wouldn't do this justice, last stage of the wrongly timed construction work will be to sheet off the section of the loft with the layout in it and enclose it to make a railway room in itself.

 

I will take a couple of photo's for posting here when I get the project completed and maybe they might help others with ideas for using their loft space.

[RAF96]

TonyMay, on 09 Feb 2014 - 20:39, said:

 

My considered advice is to ditch the ramp completely.  The Midland did have level coal stages (e.g. Manningham, Lincoln),..

I'm in much the same situation with a Metcalfe coal stage that I intend to use to supply a coal merchant rather than service locos. I plan to have level track through the stage but to drop the coal merchant's yard the necessary amount below the track level to allow the kit to stand as designed.

[Karhedron]

Just been having a look at some other prototype examples and the slope could be pretty severe as in the example at Redhill.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-A-McClymont-31622-redhill.jpg

 

If you want a functional incline, find you best shunter and experiment to find out the steepest it can propel 2-3 wagons up without slipping. If it is cosmetic then you can go steeper if necessary.

[JZ]

You can always lower the loco road to gain a bit of height difference. This was the case at Cardiff Canton.

[ohanlonmartin]

Just been having a look at some other prototype examples and the slope could be pretty severe as in the example at Redhill.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-A-McClymont-31622-redhill.jpg

 

If you want a functional incline, find you best shunter and experiment to find out the steepest it can propel 2-3 wagons up without slipping. If it is cosmetic then you can go steeper if necessary.

 

That looks good to me particularly to give a view of how steeply the sides of the embankment are finished at the coaling stage itself, I was apprehensive that space restrictions might lead to a ridiculously steep looking finish adjacent to the ground level track.

 

I still have that part of the project to finish off and it will be a while before that gets seen to as I am in the middle of insulating the attic roof, don't ask, as per usual I have got my priorities in the wrong sequence and am now doing what should have been sorted out years ago!

[BobM]

Hi

This is mine on Cambrian Street....

Regards always

Bob

[JST]

Here is video of my steam shed incorporating a Scalescenes coaling stage. I am not sure what the gradient is but it is quite steep. However, you can see at about 6.40 into the video that my Bachman Pannier goes up wit with no problem as does my Class 08. Just for the hell of it I found that my 9F goes up it as well!