Bachmann announce Mk2f's

[Benjamin Brady]

On 24/05/2022 at 13:10, James Makin said:

 

I do wonder if anyone else did what I did and stripped the shelves of the budget Hornby Virgin Mk2Fs TSOs and then just supplemented the rakes with the Bachmann Virgin RBF instead, the cheapskate approach 🤣

 

Cheers,

James

Totally this is how our XC sets are running around  🤣

[G-BOAF]

If anyone is looking for a Swallow illuminated TSO, Trains4u have one in their display case.

I would have bought it except for some very slight jagged edges on the red lining (i then looked at their FOs of which also have stock and they were better but not perfect). Hopefully someome less picky than I will be happy. But Bachmann need to raise their QC game at these prices.

Price c.£85. No connection other than as a recent customer.

Hth

Alpha Foxtrot

[ThaneofFife]

thanks for heads up even if there was a connection I dont think that matters......... 

[ThaneofFife]

looking to find out if the the INTERCITY branded RFB buffet mk2f's were used in the XC short rakes ever ran with the blue and grey Mk2f stock or did they only come along strictly after the start of the earlier I'nter-City' Executive era?

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

looking to find out if the the INTERCITY branded RFB buffet mk2f's were used in the XC short rakes ever ran with the blue and grey Mk2f stock or did they only come along strictly after the start of the earlier I'nter-City' Executive era?

I’m not sure they were ever used by cross country services ?

I think the Bachmann one made is preservation era ?

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by adb968008

[64F]

10 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

looking to find out if the the INTERCITY branded RFB buffet mk2f's were used in the XC short rakes ever ran with the blue and grey Mk2f stock or did they only come along strictly after the start of the earlier I'nter-City' Executive era?

 

The RFBs were converted in 1988 and went straight into the later IC livery with INTERCITY lettering.  By that time the large majority of mk2f coaches were in IC livery, but mostly still with the earlier InterCity executive lettering.  A mixed rake with all three livery styles would be fine for a WCML rake in 1988-89, but there should only be one or two still in blue/grey.  On the other hand, an otherwise all blue/grey rake with an INTERCITY liveried RFB would look wrong.  I can't say it never happened, but it would look strange.

                                                                                                                                  

If you want a prototypical Cross Country rake from late 1980s, the trouble is that apart from RFBs, there were very few other mk2f in the ICCX pool.  In 1988-89 ICCX brakes were mainly 2c and 2d BFKs, and TSOs were mainly 2c, 2d and 2e.  ICCX had no air-con BSOs at all at that point.  When it did get some ac BSOs a couple of years later these were mk2d and 2e, but by that time blue/grey stock was rare.

 

In the blue/grey and IC transition period Cross Country rakes tended to be quite mixed, and there was still a lot of portioning.  The more standardised short rakes of RFB, BSO and 4 or 5 TSOs didn't come about until the 1990s, by which time blue/grey was almost extinct.

Edited June 26, 2022 by 64F

[TravisM]

Did Bachmann ever do the Mk2F TSO in Anglia livery or was it just the DBSO?  Just looking to do a set which included several de-branded one's.

[Paul.Uni]

AFAIK no, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bachmann announce some in the near future to go with the DBSO.

[adb968008]

Agreed, I suspect the Anglia dbso is future proofing, as most livery options of dbso have been done, 4 variants just produced, inc 1000 DRS ones, that only match 504 Bachmann DRS mk2f TSO/BSOs.

 

I suspect thats it for the dbso for a while and they did the dbso in bulk now for the future.

 

The Anglia dbso could be mixed in with IC coaches during the repaint era, but i’d imagine Anglia coaches will come at some point.

 

The problem is though, what to pull it, Heljans 86 is 10 years old and not easily available, Hornbys is 20 years ago, but an even older tooling. Other option is 47714.

 

Heljans not yet announced an 86/2, so i’d guess its at least 2 years before we see it, even if Bachmann did mk2f’s… of course the wild card could be an all new Bachmann class 86.

 

my thought is buy the Anglia dbso now, and squirrel it away, by the time all the pieces of this puzzle are available, the dbso could be the hardest piece to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by adb968008

[Markwj]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Agreed, I suspect the Anglia dbso is future proofing, as most livery options of dbso have been done, 4 variants just produced, inc 1000 DRS ones, that only match 504 Bachmann DRS mk2f TSO/BSOs.

 

I suspect thats it for the dbso for a while and they did the dbso in bulk now for the future.

 

The Anglia dbso could be mixed in with IC coaches during the repaint era, but i’d imagine Anglia coaches will come at some point.

 

The problem is though, what to pull it, Heljans 86 is 10 years old and not easily available, Hornbys is 20 years ago, but an even older tooling. Other option is 47714.

 

Heljans not yet announced an 86/2, so i’d guess its at least 2 years before we see it, even if Bachmann did mk2f’s… of course the wild card could be an all new Bachmann class 86.

 

my thought is buy the Anglia dbso now, and squirrel it away, by the time all the pieces of this puzzle are available, the dbso could be the hardest piece to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heljan class 86 in Anglia here

https://www.thejunctionbox.net/items-for-sale/Heljan-86021-dcc-fitted/

[shunny]

Bachmann could potentially release MK2 and a new class 47 in Anglia blue in the future 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Markwj said:

Heljan class 86 in Anglia here

https://www.thejunctionbox.net/items-for-sale/Heljan-86021-dcc-fitted/

Do you have 999 more like it ? And 1000 decent pantographs though ?

 

unfortunately competitors compete, a statement like an Anglia DBSO could actually be an incentive for Heljan not to do a new Anglia 86/2.. as sales of it help its competitors sales of coaches, which helps the overall business advance… afterall we are starved of 86/2’s and any livery might sell right now.

 

It could of course spur on Hornby to do its own Anglia mk2fs to out manoeuvre Bachmanns own.. and they could always put out that railroad 86 as well.

 

Manufacturers are all pally pally to us the customer (well some are), but they are out to eat each others lunch whenever possible… and somewhere in the unknown wilderness is a new HST, which needs a mk3…and could change the game again.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Agreed, I suspect the Anglia dbso is future proofing, as most livery options of dbso have been done, 4 variants just produced, inc 1000 DRS ones, that only match 504 Bachmann DRS mk2f TSO/BSOs.

 

I suspect thats it for the dbso for a while and they did the dbso in bulk now for the future.

 

The Anglia dbso could be mixed in with IC coaches during the repaint era, but i’d imagine Anglia coaches will come at some point.

 

The problem is though, what to pull it, Heljans 86 is 10 years old and not easily available, Hornbys is 20 years ago, but an even older tooling. Other option is 47714.

 

Heljans not yet announced an 86/2, so i’d guess its at least 2 years before we see it, even if Bachmann did mk2f’s… of course the wild card could be an all new Bachmann class 86.

 

my thought is buy the Anglia dbso now, and squirrel it away, by the time all the pieces of this puzzle are available, the dbso could be the hardest piece to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With the way things are batch produced now, unless its being released by the same manufacturer in which case there could be some co-ordination, then I think you have to snap it up while you can if its something you're really going to want. We haven't often seen re-releases even where things have sold out quickly - e.g. Blue and Grey Mk2Fs? Freightliner flats? IC Swallow Class 90 and once sold its not always easy to find even paying big money. Scotrail DBSOs are heading for keeping up with the prices of the latest releases on ebay when they must have been around the £80 mark on release.

 

Things like the DBSOs are probably a fairly niche compared to other rolling stock. Being on one end they are very visible and not easy to replace with another similar coach unlike those in the middle. If you replace a 2E TSO or FO with a 2F one, its not obvious to notice without looking closely. There weren't that many of them (14) and they cant have spent all that long in any of the released liveries (blue-grey around 1979 to 1985, scotrail 1985-1990, intercity 1990-97, anglia 1997-2006 and NR 2007 onwards with modifications and DRS 2015+).

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Agreed, I suspect the Anglia dbso is future proofing, as most livery options of dbso have been done, 4 variants just produced, inc 1000 DRS ones, that only match 504 Bachmann DRS mk2f TSO/BSOs.

 

I suspect thats it for the dbso for a while and they did the dbso in bulk now for the future.

 

The Anglia dbso could be mixed in with IC coaches during the repaint era, but i’d imagine Anglia coaches will come at some point.

 

The problem is though, what to pull it, Heljans 86 is 10 years old and not easily available, Hornbys is 20 years ago, but an even older tooling. Other option is 47714.

 

Heljans not yet announced an 86/2, so i’d guess its at least 2 years before we see it, even if Bachmann did mk2f’s… of course the wild card could be an all new Bachmann class 86.

 

my thought is buy the Anglia dbso now, and squirrel it away, by the time all the pieces of this puzzle are available, the dbso could be the hardest piece to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A rake of 4 was used on Cardif-Rhymney services and this was pressed into Summer Saturday use on trains to Fishguard Harbour. Thus a perfect partner would be one of the 37’s then in use and in 2006,Class 50 ‘s 50035 & 50049 worked to Fishguard with the Anglia set. The new Bachmann Collectors Club 37422 is a perfect combination with Bachmann’s new 2f. Virgin coaches if you can make up a similar set btw.

[markw]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Agreed, I suspect the Anglia dbso is future proofing, as most livery options of dbso have been done, 4 variants just produced, inc 1000 DRS ones, that only match 504 Bachmann DRS mk2f TSO/BSOs.

 

I suspect thats it for the dbso for a while and they did the dbso in bulk now for the future.

 

The Anglia dbso could be mixed in with IC coaches during the repaint era, but i’d imagine Anglia coaches will come at some point.

 

The problem is though, what to pull it, Heljans 86 is 10 years old and not easily available, Hornbys is 20 years ago, but an even older tooling. Other option is 47714.

 

Heljans not yet announced an 86/2, so i’d guess its at least 2 years before we see it, even if Bachmann did mk2f’s… of course the wild card could be an all new Bachmann class 86.

 

my thought is buy the Anglia dbso now, and squirrel it away, by the time all the pieces of this puzzle are available, the dbso could be the hardest piece to find.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anglia had a set in Intercity livery through the entire franchise.

 

 

An Anglia DBSO can be run with debranded Virgin mk3s and class 90, this one is ONE livery but there were several in debranded virgin and some hired in from EWS in various liveries.

[mdvle]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

unfortunately competitors compete, a statement like an Anglia DBSO could actually be an incentive for Heljan not to do a new Anglia 86/2.. as sales of it help its competitors sales of coaches, which helps the overall business advance… afterall we are starved of 86/2’s and any livery might sell right now.

 

As a broad statement that is false - at least for many/most of the manufacturers involved in this hobby.

 

Accurascale mentioned in their HAA announcement that they were avoiding immediate duplication of liveries with a competitor that was also doing the HAA. 

 

Rapido delayed announcing their Iron Mink when they became aware of the offering from Rails of Sheffield.

 

The Dapol Class 68 complements the Mk5 coaches, and even without a license being an issue there isn't a market for 2 competing models so tooling a second 68 would have been foolish.  Yes Dapol took advantage and rushed a new run of the 68 with an appropriate livery and made money - but that also would have helped Accurascale sell more Mk5 coaches.  So a proverbial win-win.

 

This hobby is a business where as much as the companies involved may compete with each other they also help each other because no one company can produce every model wanted/needed.  So sometimes it means "stealing" a model by tooling a new version, but sometimes it means to form a complete train you are buying a loco from A, a coach from B, another coach from C.  Or your loco fleet is rarely all from one company.  etc.

 

As for your specific example of Heljan and the 86 - Heljan is a niche player in this market without a range of goods wagons or passenger coaches to sell - thus they by definition depend on the other companies in this hobby to make their locos popular with buyers.  So why wouldn't they do an Anglia 86/2?

 

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

and somewhere in the unknown wilderness is a new HST, which needs a mk3…and could change the game again.

 

There probably is - but that is in part because the current supplier has refused to tool a modern detailed version of the HST/Mk3's.  Thus the HST market, if they lose part of it to a competitor, is because they became complacent.

[letterspider]

I expect both Hornby and Bachmann are producing coaches with the Anglia livery in time for Christmas. They won't be direct competitors, different by price, level of detail and type of lighting  however Hornby will hopefully be careful to match their colour to the Bachmann DBSO

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

As a broad statement that is false - at least for many/most of the manufacturers involved in this hobby.

 

Accurascale mentioned in their HAA announcement that they were avoiding immediate duplication of liveries with a competitor that was also doing the HAA. 

 

Rapido delayed announcing their Iron Mink when they became aware of the offering from Rails of Sheffield.

 

The Dapol Class 68 complements the Mk5 coaches, and even without a license being an issue there isn't a market for 2 competing models so tooling a second 68 would have been foolish.  Yes Dapol took advantage and rushed a new run of the 68 with an appropriate livery and made money - but that also would have helped Accurascale sell more Mk5 coaches.  So a proverbial win-win.

 

This hobby is a business where as much as the companies involved may compete with each other they also help each other because no one company can produce every model wanted/needed.  So sometimes it means "stealing" a model by tooling a new version, but sometimes it means to form a complete train you are buying a loco from A, a coach from B, another coach from C.  Or your loco fleet is rarely all from one company.  etc.

 

As for your specific example of Heljan and the 86 - Heljan is a niche player in this market without a range of goods wagons or passenger coaches to sell - thus they by definition depend on the other companies in this hobby to make their locos popular with buyers.  So why wouldn't they do an Anglia 86/2?

 

 

There probably is - but that is in part because the current supplier has refused to tool a modern detailed version of the HST/Mk3's.  Thus the HST market, if they lose part of it to a competitor, is because they became complacent.

Excuse me if I find that naive. 
To you and me this is a hobby.

To them its business.

 

Sure examples of complimentary models exist, as you highlight, but don't think this is solely exclusively about being nice and friendly to the modeller, its about making money, out of an opportunity. It is also equally about denying your competitor of the ability to make money from an oppourtunity. (duplication is just 1 way of doing it).

 

if everyone was as warm and cosy as you suggest (and questionably illegal), then no duplication would exist for start. Sure they collaborate, TT, OO9 etc as this creates a market, but they return to their camps with their own plans and decisions… 

 

If not, there would be no need for secrecy on development for a start.

 

to counter your offers i raise you..

 

- A decision to make long starved for class 45’s, the day before Heljans announcement was just coincidence and not competitive ?

- We need two Lions because ?

- Oxfords mk3 is not a new tooling is it not ?

- Before AS class 92 there was another announced

- Hattons class 66 was a result of friendly collaboration across all manufacturers ?

 

Each of these decisions denied a competitor to make money, or increased their expenses associated to that opportunity. (Or in Oxfords case, make money by selling the companies IP to Hornby).

 

This is real money being spent, those spending it want a return and are taking the risk to do it, they will protect that investment for as long as its worthwhile, and milk it for the opportunities they can.

Dapol didnt make the 68 a few years before Accurascale existed through collaboration. But they did make 5 TPE 68’s as they saw a route to make money that was more lucrative than making 5 more DRS blue ones, and presumably saw little risk to their business by doing so, with hindsight in future they may view this differently.

Sorry if that shakes the foundations.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by adb968008

[GordonC]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Excuse me if I find that naive. 
To you and me this is a hobby.

To them its business.

 

Sure examples of complimentary models exist, as you highlight, but don't think this is solely exclusively about being nice and friendly to the modeller, its about making money, out of an opportunity. It is also equally about denying your competitor of the ability to make money from an oppourtunity. (duplication is just 1 way of doing it).

 

if everyone was as warm and cosy as you suggest (and questionably illegal), then no duplication would exist for start. Sure they collaborate, TT, OO9 etc as this creates a market, but they return to their camps with their own plans and decisions… 

 

If not, there would be no need for secrecy on development for a start.

 

to counter your offers i raise you..

 

- A decision to make long starved for class 45’s, the day before Heljans announcement was just coincidence and not competitive ?

- We need two Lions because ?

- Oxfords mk3 is not a new tooling is it not ?

- Before AS class 92 there was another announced

- Hattons class 66 was a result of friendly collaboration across all manufacturers ?

 

Each of these decisions denied a competitor to make money, or increased their expenses associated to that opportunity. (Or in Oxfords case, make money by selling the companies IP to Hornby).

 

This is real money being spent, those spending it want a return and are taking the risk to do it, they will protect that investment for as long as its worthwhile, and milk it for the opportunities they can.

Dapol didnt make the 68 a few years before Accurascale existed through collaboration. But they did make 5 TPE 68’s as they saw a route to make money that was more lucrative than making 5 more DRS blue ones, and presumably saw little risk to their business by doing so.

Sorry if that shakes the foundations.

 

 

 

as all businesses, they're there for one purpose, to make money. Sometimes they will make more money competing and sometimes they will make more collaborating.

 

I'd think availablilty of an Anglia Bachmann DBSO is more likely to encourage demand for Heljan Class 86s and presumably Bachmann/Hornby to be looking at related Mk2/Mk3 coaching stock. I'm almost a bit surprised Bachmann didn't produce matching TSOs and FOs at the same time as the DBSOs unless it was 2Es that Anglia had.

 

Two competing projects being announced at the same time might be just as one gets announced that the other sticks their flag up in the air before they would have liked to try and get a slice of the pie before too many orders are placed with the competitor.

[No Decorum]

1 minute ago, GordonC said:

 

as all businesses, they're there for one purpose, to make money. Sometimes they will make more money competing and sometimes they will make more collaborating.

 

I'd think availablilty of an Anglia Bachmann DBSO is more likely to encourage demand for Heljan Class 86s and presumably Bachmann/Hornby to be looking at related Mk2/Mk3 coaching stock. I'm almost a bit surprised Bachmann didn't produce matching TSOs and FOs at the same time as the DBSOs unless it was 2Es that Anglia had.

 

Two competing projects being announced at the same time might be just as one gets announced that the other sticks their flag up in the air before they would have liked to try and get a slice of the pie before too many orders are placed with the competitor.

Of course they want to make money. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t survive. However, the way to make money is dedication and a love of subject. There are plenty of examples of that but just one is Bachmann employees  pre-Covid seldom having a weekend off in the run up to Christmas.

[dean20304]

20 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

A rake of 4 was used on Cardif-Rhymney services and this was pressed into Summer Saturday use on trains to Fishguard Harbour. Thus a perfect partner would be one of the 37’s then in use and in 2006,Class 50 ‘s 50035 & 50049 worked to Fishguard with the Anglia set. The new Bachmann Collectors Club 37422 is a perfect combination with Bachmann’s new 2f. Virgin coaches if you can make up a similar set btw.

I think you’re mixing up the Anglia stock with the Arriva liveried mk2s. Only time anglia mk2s ever ventured to Rhymney was during the Transport for Wales era with 37025, 37418 & 37421.

 

 

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Excuse me if I find that naive. 
To you and me this is a hobby.

To them its business.

 

Many of the newer companies, while operating as a business, are doing it because of the love of this hobby.  This shows up in their products and actions where it is clear that their desire to produce models they would be proud to have on their own layouts vs. a simple how cheaply and quickly can we make this product.

 

So it is both.

 

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Sure examples of complimentary models exist, as you highlight, but don't think this is solely exclusively about being nice and friendly to the modeller, its about making money, out of an opportunity. It is also equally about denying your competitor of the ability to make money from an oppourtunity. (duplication is just 1 way of doing it).

 

Don't confuse the rumoured actions of Hornby with the hobby as a whole.

 

With a relatively small number of exceptions duplication will frequently be a good way for both parties to lose money, so attempting to deny your competitor a profit by losing money yourself seems a poor way to run a business (unless you have someone willing to lose large amounts of money funding you).

 

But it isn't "examples" of complimentary models - it is the entire basis for this hobby.

 

Unless you are specifically a "red box collector" you are going to find that almost everyone in this hobby has boxes from multiple companies in their collection - because no one company makes everything that you want/need.

 

Just like when buying food - you may choose to restrict yourself to one retailer but they are buying from multiple suppliers who are all competing with each other while at the same time complementing each other.

 

Game consoles work because multiple companies make games for them - yes they compete with each other but they also rely on each other existing to offer the variety of games to convince people to invest in the hardware.

 

Restaurants like to group together - to make the location a destination - because while they compete with each other they get more foot traffic and hence potential customers because those potential customers know they have a choice at location X.

 

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

if everyone was as warm and cosy as you suggest (and questionably illegal), then no duplication would exist for start. Sure they collaborate, TT, OO9 etc as this creates a market, but they return to their camps with their own plans and decisions… 

 

Never said otherwise.

 

But this is a small community and informal conversations happen.

 

Or conversations happen in China amongst the Chinese and get fed back to the respective clients.

 

As for duplication, it depends on the type of duplication.  Tooling a new replacement for an outdated model is good duplication and it frequently happens - particularly if the company with the existing model gets complacent/arrogant and doesn't update it itself.  Or if it is a very common and popular prototype that will sell enough for multiple companies to make it.

 

And yes, sometimes duplication accidentally happens, at which point the hope is both sides can minimize the losses.

 

But at the end of the day all of the companies rely on the existence of the others to have a hobby that thrives and allows them to make money - and this isn't unique to this hobby.

 

One of the easiest and best ways to make money is to grow the market - and the best way to grow the market is having multiple companies willing to invest and offer a large variety of product to entice people.

 

So they are both competing and helping each other.

 

 

[DanielP]

On 28/07/2022 at 12:35, shunny said:

Bachmann could potentially release MK2 and a new class 47 in Anglia blue in the future 

I’m intrigued by this idea, did Anglia run the DBSOs with a 47 to Great Yarmouth? Was there always an AC loco on the other end? Could anyone point me in the direction of typical formations for 1997-1999? Thanks!

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, dean20304 said:

I think you’re mixing up the Anglia stock with the Arriva liveried mk2s. Only time anglia mk2s ever ventured to Rhymney was during the Transport for Wales era with 37025, 37418 & 37421.

 

 

Apologies. You are correct.

[adb968008]

29 minutes ago, DanielP said:

I’m intrigued by this idea, did Anglia run the DBSOs with a 47 to Great Yarmouth? Was there always an AC loco on the other end? Could anyone point me in the direction of typical formations for 1997-1999? Thanks!

I seem to think it was ecs moves, drags, rescues and shunting.

Edited July 29, 2022 by adb968008