Signalling for Begbrooke - any comments please?

[The Great Bear]

I've definitely seen, and seen photos of, them back to back on the same post although that wasn't too common on the Western especially - I think - on main line routes.   i would move 39 a bit nearer the platform especially in view of the curvature.

 

Thanks, Mike. I was a bit constrained on how far I could move no.39, with it being on the lifting flap as you can see here

[The Stationmaster]

 

Thanks, Mike. I was a bit constrained on how far I could move no.39, with it being on the lifting flap as you can see here

That looks pretty good Jon.

[The Great Bear]

In the process of trying to complete wiring up of all the points and servos for the signals, not being the brightest bear in the box,  I've managed to get confused because my layout being viewed from the inside is the opposite to the real signal box and diagram. So I'm risking further confusion by re-drawing my signalling diagram:

and a list of the levers below - the list simply reversed, assuming there was some rationale in real life for how it was arranged, due to rodding or something. (I'm not at all too sure about my terminology, whether correct, but makes sense to me)

Hopefully this will make operation easier in due course!

[The Stationmaster]

Terminology is a bit adrift Jon.  On the GWR running line stop signals in rear of the signalbox were 'Home' of some sort and those in advance were 'starer (or starting) of some sort, thus.

 

2 - Up Main Home

3 - Up Main Starting

8 - Up Main Advanced Starting

 

4 - Up Branch Home

5 - Up Branch Outer Intermediate Home (probably - difficult one with so many Branch Home Signals!)

6 - Up Branch Intermediate Home

7 - Up Branch to Up Main Inner Home

11 - Up Branch to Up Main Calling On

 

9 - Up Siding Starting

10 - Up Siding   (wouldn't be called a crossover - as it isn't)

12 - Crossover Dn Branch to Dn Main

 

13 FPL for 12

15 FPL for 16

 

And so on .......

 

Your starter for 10

[The Great Bear]

Just remembered this, thanks again Mike.

 

Terminology is a bit adrift Jon.  On the GWR running line stop signals in rear of the signalbox were 'Home' of some sort and those in advance were 'starer (or starting) of some sort, thus.

 

2 - Up Main Home

3 - Up Main Starting

8 - Up Main Advanced Starting

 

4 - Up Branch Home

5 - Up Branch Outer Intermediate Home (probably - difficult one with so many Branch Home Signals!)

6 - Up Branch Intermediate Home

7 - Up Branch to Up Main Inner Home

11 - Up Branch to Up Main Calling On

 

9 - Up Siding Starting

10 - Up Siding   (wouldn't be called a crossover - as it isn't)

12 - Crossover Dn Branch to Dn Main

 

13 FPL for 12

15 FPL for 16

 

And so on .......

 

Your starter for 10

 

No.5 certainly is a mouthful, especially for the lever labels:

 

 

I think, based on this site http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Greenford/   that this is the right format. I had initially thought that the numbers below were all the related levers, but this site says it's only the ones which need to be reversed, which makes sense.

 

The intention is to print these on card and stick on the levers in due course. Not as elegant as cast numbers but hopefully won't look too amiss.

[The Stationmaster]

The 'numbers below' are what are known as the leads - i.e. reversing them leads reversing the lever they appear on.  In fact in Western parlance the whole plate on the lever is often referred to as 'the lever lead'  (even if there are no other levers leading it

 

You've got No.5 wrong (hardly surprising with all the tongue twister on the Up Branch signals) - what you have for No.6 should be on No.5 and No. 6 should be the 'Up Branch Intermediate Home'.  The lead in No.7 should be 30, 26, 25 24 23 in that order reading from the top downwards - that avoids 'pulling between' and reflects 30 releasing 25.  The lead on No.11 would be exactly the same.

 

The lead for No.6 is 15, the lead for 19 is 23, 34; the lead for No.9 is 10; the lead for No.14 is 16,15 (15 is debatable on older frames);.  And now we come to No.20 which will be 21, 23 OR 21, 30, 25, 26, 21, 23  - assuming that it doesn't read to the Down Main, if you want it to read to the Down main you need to add ...  OR 27, 26, 21, 23

 

Hope that helps a bit and should illustrate too why I've put some extra ones in if you follow the logic of what I've done.

[The Great Bear]

The 'numbers below' are what are known as the leads - i.e. reversing them leads reversing the lever they appear on.  In fact in Western parlance the whole plate on the lever is often referred to as 'the lever lead'  (even if there are no other levers leading it

 

You've got No.5 wrong (hardly surprising with all the tongue twister on the Up Branch signals) - what you have for No.6 should be on No.5 and No. 6 should be the 'Up Branch Intermediate Home'.  The lead in No.7 should be 30, 26, 25 24 23 in that order reading from the top downwards - that avoids 'pulling between' and reflects 30 releasing 25.  The lead on No.11 would be exactly the same.

 

The lead for No.6 is 15, the lead for 19 is 23, 34; the lead for No.9 is 10; the lead for No.14 is 16,15 (15 is debatable on older frames);.  And now we come to No.20 which will be 21, 23 OR 21, 30, 25, 26, 21, 23  - assuming that it doesn't read to the Down Main, if you want it to read to the Down main you need to add ...  OR 27, 26, 21, 23

 

Hope that helps a bit and should illustrate too why I've put some extra ones in if you follow the logic of what I've done.

 

That's very informative, Mike - thank you. Think I understand - and yes the additional ones do help, just need to remind myself how the levers & point blades at the double slip work. The big thing I've missed is including the FPL levers. Quite possibly this was covered earlier in this thread/our pm's but forgot to take cognisance of that and so had assumed that they only effected & would be interlocked with the points. (Indeed the work in my layout thread has wired the FPL levers on the frame in this way as an economy to avoid buying an extra bit of DCC kit, but this can be changed in due course.) Thinking about it, it makes sense in the prototype that you want the FPL locked before you clear a route that goes over that point.

 

I'm sure I've heard the term "pulling between" before on here, but quick search didn't reveal it. Guessing it just means trying to pull a lever which is locked or is it more subtle than that. 

 

Once again thanks,

 

Jon

[The Stationmaster]

Jon 'pulling between would be - albeit an incorrect example in terms of order -  pulling 26, 24, 25.  In other words 26 and 24 are pulled and then the Signalman has to pull 25 which is between them.  Not necessarily difficult if 25 is a 'light' lever but an absolute pig if 25 is 'heavy'.  It also makes leads easier to learn if they run in number order sequence but various factors might not always mean that is possible.

 

And as you might now have gathered on the Western FPLs are bolted with teh lever standing in reverse (there were occasional exceptions - but definitely very occasional.

 

(As an aside some Signalmen always took the line that the best way to learn a frame was to learn the leads and it was not unusual to come across Relief Signalmen who kept a notebook detailing all the leads for the 'boxes they signed.  Other simply learnt the numbers off the 'box diagram and remembered what each lever did but in my view on a large or complex frame that method really only worked well if you also understood the locking and could be misleading if you didn't.)

[The Great Bear]

On 30/04/2015 at 22:50, The Stationmaster said:

Terminology is a bit adrift Jon.  On the GWR running line stop signals in rear of the signalbox were 'Home' of some sort and those in advance were 'starer (or starting) of some sort, thus.

 

2 - Up Main Home

3 - Up Main Starting

8 - Up Main Advanced Starting

 

4 - Up Branch Home

5 - Up Branch Outer Intermediate Home (probably - difficult one with so many Branch Home Signals!)

6 - Up Branch Intermediate Home

7 - Up Branch to Up Main Inner Home

11 - Up Branch to Up Main Calling On

 

9 - Up Siding Starting

10 - Up Siding   (wouldn't be called a crossover - as it isn't)

12 - Crossover Dn Branch to Dn Main

 

13 FPL for 12

15 FPL for 16

 

And so on .......

 

Your starter for 10

 

With the layout finished I'm finally getting around to sorting out the lever frame, so Ihave come back to this and updated the table based on the above and other info supplied by the Stationmaster a good few years back now. (And thank you again, Mike, for your previous help with this!)

 

 

  

The terminology I'm hoping is what would appear on the lever leads.

 

Looking at some pictures they use the words "To Cross" but I am not sure I have applied correctly, is it simply where there is a crossover from one line to another? I'm not sure whether ones in/out of the branch siding this should apply?

 

Also I'm unsure about the ground discs, whether what I've done is right?

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by The Great Bear

[The Stationmaster]

Jon,

 

Normally it would be 'Disc At ..' although in some cases 'Disc For. '  was used (probably something which changed over the years but maybe more complicated than that?   And some would have an amplified wording as instanced below - fashions changed over the years.

 

On a lever lead the words 'To Cross' would be below a horizontal line beneath the description.  I would slightly alter some of the wording as follows -

10.  Up Main To Up Siding

16.  Branch Siding to Branch 

21. Branch To Branch Siding

25. Branch To Up Main Line - To Cross (in latter WR days a Maltese cross symbol was sometimes used instead of the word 'cross')

(26 is unaltered)

27. Down Main Line To Branch - To Cross

33. Bay to Down Main Line - To Cross

36. Branch To Bay Sidings

 

 

This leaves 'To Cross ' only used for running signalled movements although it could logically be added on all the other points which work as crossovers.  you'll see that i have worded 16 & 21 the opposite way t rounf d to each other which I think perhaps )?) more logically reflects the way they were used.

 

Discs were named in two different ways which again most likely reflects changes over the years with 'at' being the later method, otherwise some would previously have been more descriptive.  the locking will help here as the purpose of the discs becomes clearer.   For ec ample disc 18 would be released by 10 so would be  'Disc At 10' with a horizontal line beneath that then 10 beneath the line. But taking  a different sort of example 17 would be  'Disc Branch Siding to Down Branch'  horizontal line beneath that then the number 16 which would be the lead.  so there would be differences between the way various discs are described depending on their function.

[Harlequin]

Would crossover points be labelled with A B C suffixes in the 1940s - in a frame probably first set up many years earlier?

 

[The Great Bear]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Discs were named in two different ways which again most likely reflects changes over the years with 'at' being the later method, otherwise some would previously have been more descriptive.  the locking will help here as the purpose of the discs becomes clearer.   For ec ample disc 18 would be released by 10 so would be  'Disc At 10' with a horizontal line beneath that then 10 beneath the line. But taking  a different sort of example 17 would be  'Disc Branch Siding to Down Branch'  horizontal line beneath that then the number 16 which would be the lead.  so there would be differences between the way various discs are described depending on their function.

Thanks, Mike. This last point, is the difference that reversing moves would be labelled "disc at" and facing moves with fuller description - so the ones for the branch siding in/out in both directions would be the latter but that into the yard would be just the former?

 

Is 25 Branch to Up Main Line rather than Down Main Line to Up Main Line because that was the more likely (timetabled) move - there were 2 passenger trains making this move.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by The Great Bear

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

Thanks, Mike. This last point, is the difference that reversing moves would be labelled "disc at" and facing moves with fuller description - so the ones for the branch siding in/out in both directions would be the latter but that into the yard would be just the former?

 

Is 25 Branch to Up Main Line rather than Down Main Line to Up Main Line because that was the more likely (timetabled) move - there were 2 passenger trains making this move.

 

25 is for the Branch to Up Main connection in the slip (which fits the move signalled by a running signal No.7)   30 is the Main Lines crossover.

 

The wording might be a little different from your summary but I think you've got a sensible starting point but think each one through as you go

 

23 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Would crossover points be labelled with A B C suffixes in the 1940s - in a frame probably first set up many years earlier?

 

I reckon not and would avoid doing it as the leads are finalised.   They suffixes are a useful reference in the meanwhile.

[Michael Hodgson]

Sorry to come in so late to this thread, but it strikes me that the lever numbering seems to be the wrong way round with the box drawn as shown.  Even on the GWR, a signalman with the lever frame at the front of the box usually* has lever number one to his left and sees the signal to his left when he looks out of the window.  However with the frame against the back wall of the box he is facing the other way so number one is the opposite direction.

 

I would therefore expect either the numbering to be reversed with the box "facing the job" as drawn, but correct if he is working with "back to the job".

 

* go on then, there's bound to be an exception, this is signalling!

[The Great Bear]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Sorry to come in so late to this thread, but it strikes me that the lever numbering seems to be the wrong way round with the box drawn as shown.  Even on the GWR, a signalman with the lever frame at the front of the box usually* has lever number one to his left and sees the signal to his left when he looks out of the window.  However with the frame against the back wall of the box he is facing the other way so number one is the opposite direction.

 

I would therefore expect either the numbering to be reversed with the box "facing the job" as drawn, but correct if he is working with "back to the job".

 

* go on then, there's bound to be an exception, this is signalling!

You are right that they are reversed. As I am operating the layout from the inside rather than the real signal box being on the outside I reversed it. I don't know what others do on their layouts but it was getting too confusing for me with the left being the right.

[5BarVT]

On 16/02/2022 at 12:00, The Stationmaster said:

Normally it would be 'Disc At ..' although in some cases 'Disc For. '  was used (probably something which changed over the years but maybe more complicated than that?

Investigation I carried out (trawling through lever leads on SRS) to decide how to label my frame indicated that at one point there was a subtlety with ‘for’ and ‘at’.

Once double and triple discs were commonplace, ’for’ was a disc that read through a crossover (i.e. led (released) by the xover) whereas ‘at’ read through those points normal (and probably through a later turnout).

As with everything signalling, the convention wasn’t always followed, especially latterly (post privatisation).

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Investigation I carried out (trawling through lever leads on SRS) to decide how to label my frame indicated that at one point there was a subtlety with ‘for’ and ‘at’.

Once double and triple discs were commonplace, ’for’ was a disc that read through a crossover (i.e. led (released) by the xover) whereas ‘at’ read through those points normal (and probably through a later turnout).

As with everything signalling, the convention wasn’t always followed, especially latterly (post privatisation).

Paul.

Hopefully I might know a lot more in a month or so's time when I am due to receive a copy of a particular document.  However I don't know until I see it how far back it might go if it happens to be an amended earlier version rather than a later 'new' version'

 

But another thought crosses my mind in view of what you've said  - was there any distinction in the use of 'for' and 'at when it came to white discs compared with red light discs?

[5BarVT]

On 18/02/2022 at 15:11, The Stationmaster said:

But another thought crosses my mind in view of what you've said  - was there any distinction in the use of 'for' and 'at when it came to white discs compared with red light discs?

Ahh!

Don't know (i.e. can’t remember whether I took that into account or not).

Makes it slightly more complicated research as it requires not only the leads but (generally) locking as well to find out what type of discs they might have been.

I may be some time, and that’s assuming I remember and don’t get distracted by other things.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Ahh!

Don't know (i.e. can’t remember whether I took that into account or not).

Makes it slightly more complicated research as it requires not only the leads but (generally) locking as well to find out what type of discs they might have been.

I may be some time, and that’s assuming I remember and don’t get distracted by other things.

Paul.

White light discs (and backing signals  ) are usually fairly easy to work out and they still existed on frames with VT locking where conditional locks would not have been a problem.

 

It only becomes awkward when they are leading discs but the only way to regard them is as leading discs and 'suffer' accordingly when it comes to the locking.   But at 'Begbrooke'   31 and 32 would (could) be white light discs as they both read towards a disc with a red light (18 and 29 respectively).  But 31 would have conditional releases anyway because the lead as a white light disc would be  30 - OR - 30, 26, 25. 

[The Great Bear]

Apologies if this is a silly question but does the locking of levers, needing other levers reversed to release, only apply to the lever being pulled to the reverse positon and not it being pushed back to the normal position? (Aside from levers with FPL where to move in either directon the FPL needs to be released which on GWR is pushing the FPL lever back into the frame.)

Edited March 7, 2022 by The Great Bear

[5BarVT]

12 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

Apologies if this is a silly question but does the locking of levers, needing other levers reversed to release, only apply to the lever being pulled to the reverse positon and not it being pushed back to the normal position? (Aside from levers with FPL where to move in either directon the FPL needs to be released which on GWR is pushing the FPL lever back into the frame.)

Not a silly question.

Mechanical locking is all reciprocal (unless you do something special, see below) i.e. if 1 locks 2 then by definition 2 locks 1.  So in a locking table, anything in the Locks Normal column will have another entry against the other lever.  The same is true of releases: if 4 is released by 3 then 3 releases 4.  WR locking tables have Released By and Releases columns and any entry in Released By will have a converse in Releases.  Other styles of table omit one of the columns and leave you to assume the converse.

Electric locking is different in that you have to consciously apply both bits of locking (separate wiring).

The one bit of mechanical locking that was sometimes ‘one way only’ was sequential locking - a later safety addition to block working.  MSL required springs and funny shaped nibs that sprung into place and then wouldn’t come back out.  Electrical Sequential Locking is much easier to do!

Paul.