Backdating a Hornby BR Castle into a GWR Castle?

[OnTheBranchline]

I'm just curious on what would need to be done to backdate a BR (single chimney) Castle into a GWR Castle? The more obvious points are a repaint of the model (either shirtbutton or G W depending on when the loco was built) and taking the numberplate off the smokebox door/painting the number on the bufferbeam. Are there any other obvious changes that would have to be made?

 

Forgive me, but I can't tell the difference of the green used by Hornby on their GWR Castles compared to the BR Castles? Comparing Wellington Castle and Beverston Castle, it's roughly the same livery (as in colour of green and red lining).

[The Great Bear]

Why do you need to repaint, can't you just add the extra lining and remove tender logo. How much to add depends on GW era, slightly simpler post war basicaly extra boiler bands to add and (the trickier bit) changing lining on cabside to go around the window.

 

There's article on changing smokebook door in one of this months mags.

 

Something I have thought about but shyed away from with the Star. May do this yet for another loco.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Jon

[gwrrob]

 and taking the numberplate off the smokebox door/

 

 

 

That's the bit that fills me with dread.On the GW version there is lining on the firebox as shewn here on 5011 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/27250-5011-tintagel-castle/

 

The lining is also slightly different on the cylinder casing.

 

5049 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/53800-br-liveried-castle-class-5049-earl-of-plymouth/

[The Fatadder]

The thing to keep in mind is that the smoke box number covers part of the upper bracket in the front of the door. As such it needs to be replaced,

[OnTheBranchline]

Why do you need to repaint, can't you just add the extra lining and remove tender logo. How much to add depends on GW era, slightly simpler post war basicaly extra boiler bands to add and (the trickier bit) changing lining on cabside to go around the window.

 

There's article on changing smokebook door in one of this months mags.

 

Something I have thought about but shyed away from with the Star. May do this yet for another loco.

 

Hope this helps a bit

 

Jon

 

And I believe the footplate was painted green in the BR era and black in the GWR era with no lining on the cylinders (going on what I saw on the picture of Hornby's yet to be released "Wellington Castle": http://www.Hornby.com/shop/locomotives/steam-locomotives/r3105-gwr-4-6-0-wellington-castle-class-gwr-green-hawksworth-tender/

[DavidR]

I was given a Hornby Castle, as part of a 'Royal Duchy' train set by a female work colleague.(She had ben given it by a client!). The Mk1 coaches were stored but I set about changing the Castle (which I found out was DCC fiited - but works fine on DC).

The smokebox door was attended to, it was given a repaint into post 1928 green, relined and fitted with 4089 plates and renamed 'Donnington Castle'. The tender was changed to a Churchward 3500 type: this too was repainted and relined.

It gallops around the layout and looks fine to me. Accuracy? I dunno, but I've got what I want at little cost.

[Miss Prism]

Depending on how far back you are backdating, you might need to think about a different shape of steam pipe.

[OnTheBranchline]

Depending on how far back you are backdating, you might need to think about a different shape of steam pipe.

 

Two Castles that I am looking at were built in 1938 and 1936, so I resume that during and after WW2, they would have the same livery as the Wellington Castle. I'm not sure about technical differences from a Castle in post war GWR and the same Castle in early BR.

[Il Grifone]

GWR lining differs from BR in that the firebox sides (not the top) are lined, the cylinders have a lining panel on the sides and the cab lining follows the edges of the cab. At one time the rear of the tender was also lined.

 

Locos built 1936/8 would have started life with the 'shirt button'. Apart from the steam pipes, there are also differences in the casing over the middle cylinders.

 

AFAIK the green was always the same - any perceived differences were due to to undercoats/number of coats/varnish. (For what it's worth, Humbrol HR104 GWR Loco green is an excellent match for Hornby Dublo BR green).

[OnTheBranchline]

GWR lining differs from BR in that the firebox sides (not the top) are lined, the cylinders have a lining panel on the sides and the cab lining follows the edges of the cab. At one time the rear of the tender was also lined.

 

Locos built 1936/8 would have started life with the 'shirt button'. Apart from the steam pipes, there are also differences in the casing over the middle cylinders.

 

AFAIK the green was always the same - any perceived differences were due to to undercoats/number of coats/varnish. (For what it's worth, Humbrol HR104 GWR Loco green is an excellent match for Hornby Dublo BR green).

 

What would be the visible differences?

[Andy M]

What would be the visible differences?

 

You are going to need the 'Bomb Squad' if you intend to wander into this little minefield! 

 

 

The Castles visually varied from batch to batch, and individual locos within each batch, as they were modified over their lives. The safest bet is to pick a loco in the same production run as your donor model and remove any later BR modifications.

 

If you have a particular loco in mind let us know and I'm sure the 'collective' will point you in the right direction. Failing that the Irwell Press 'The Book of the Castle 4-6-0s' contains a wealth of images of each and every class member.

 

Regards,

Andy.

[gwrrob]

 

 Failing that the Irwell Press 'The Book of the Castle 4-6-0s' contains a wealth of images of each and every class member.

 

Regards,

Andy.

 

That book has to be one of the best railway connected purchases I've made in the last 20 years.Superb Mr Sixsmith.

[The Fatadder]

It (along with the book of the county's) is on my shopping list!

[Il Grifone]

What would be the visible differences?

 

Debatable - a 'richness' of colour more than anything else I would surmise and probably completely lost on a model - above all if weathered.

 

I read somewhere that the NRM paint all the MR/LMS crimson locomotives the same, but still get told that the MR finish is superior in appearance.

 

Here are some notes on painting Mallard  http://nationalrailwaymuseum.wordpress.com/

[OnTheBranchline]

Depending on how far back you are backdating, you might need to think about a different shape of steam pipe.

 

The thicker steam pipe were filled in BR days or at the end of the GWR? (Comparing the Wellington Castle model, it has the same bigger steam pipes as the early BR ones).

[Miss Prism]

The thicker steam pipe were filled in BR days or at the end of the GWR? (Comparing the Wellington Castle model, it has the same bigger steam pipes as the early BR ones).

I don't know when the shape migrated. Originally, the pipe was a small-radius curve with a straight bit between the curves. The straight bit sometimes seem to have joins. The original shape could still be seen in 1952. Large radius curve pipes seem to have come in the early-1950s*. 'Extra-large' radius ones came a bit later, and look to be a bit fatter as well.

 

 

* Edit: I think 1952-54??

[9403]

oh boy. Where would I find all the info to do a "Westminster Abbey" conversion  circa 1960.

Where would I get the bits. Comet seems to be all LM as is Brassmasters!

[OnTheBranchline]

I was given a Hornby Castle, as part of a 'Royal Duchy' train set by a female work colleague.(She had ben given it by a client!). The Mk1 coaches were stored but I set about changing the Castle (which I found out was DCC fiited - but works fine on DC).

The smokebox door was attended to, it was given a repaint into post 1928 green, relined and fitted with 4089 plates and renamed 'Donnington Castle'. The tender was changed to a Churchward 3500 type: this too was repainted and relined.

It gallops around the layout and looks fine to me. Accuracy? I dunno, but I've got what I want at little cost.

 

I'm not sure what the client was thinking: "Hmm... I need a gift... Something expensive to use as a deductible on my taxes... Alcohol? Nope, It has to be a train pack"

[Coach bogie]

Difficult to give a full answer without more details. What name/number is the donor engine and what name/number and date to you want to make it? One area that can be tricky is the inside cylinder cover. The Hornby BR versions have the footstep additon that were not on the GWR versions and will require a replacement. Fireiron tunnels only on 5013 onwards which cannot easily be removed from the Hornby body and under cab sandboxes moved on 5060 onwards so this may limit your choice.

 

Another book which gives full details, with drawings of the changes/updates is Portraits of Castles by Kenneth Leach/Bryan Holden.He also wrote a similar work on the Kings.

 

The steampipe change came about after a series of fractures in the early 1950's and a redesdigned, fatter pipe was fitted as engines went through works.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[OnTheBranchline]

Difficult to give a full answer without more details. What name/number is the donor engine and what name/number and date to you want to make it? One area that can be tricky is the inside cylinder cover. The Hornby BR versions have the footstep additon that were not on the GWR versions and will require a replacement. Fireiron tunnels only on 5013 onwards which cannot easily be removed from the Hornby body and under cab sandboxes moved on 5060 onwards so this may limit your choice.

 

Another book which gives full details, with drawings of the changes/updates is Portraits of Castles by Kenneth Leach/Bryan Holden.He also wrote a similar work on the Kings.

 

The steampipe change came about after a series of fractures in the early 1950's and a redesdigned, fatter pipe was fitted as engines went through works.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I was wondering about just keeping the same engine number and turning back the livery, but it sounds like it can't be so (technically). Comparing photos on a retailer's website, Tintagel Castle 5011 and Earl Cairns 5053 basically look the same to my naked eye except for a few minor differences.

 

Differences being:

-Difference in lining on cab side

-Painted footplate on the BR Castle

-Smokebox door number/Number on bufferbeam on GWR Castle

-Different livery (obviously)

 

I was thinking either one of:

5053 Earl Cairns: http://www.ehattons.com/25714/Hornby_R2822_GWR_Castle_Earl_Cairns_in_early_BR_green_Pete_Waterman_Collection/StockDetail.aspx

5068 Beverston Castle: http://www.ehattons.com/25744/Hornby_R2849X_Castle_class_4_6_0_Beverston_Castle_Collett_tender_in_BR_green_with_early_emble/StockDetail.aspx

7007 Great Western/Ogmore Castle: http://www.ehattons.com/32175/Hornby_R2958_Castle_Class_4_6_0_7007_Great_Western_in_BR_green_with_large_early_emblem_Ltd_E/StockDetail.aspx

 

The Hattons links are just examples, I know they are sold out.

[Coach bogie]

5011 Tintagel has a different inside cylinder chest cover and is not suitable.

 

5053 Earl Cairns in 1930's condition need the inside cylinder chest cover altering to remove the 1940's onward fitted footstep. As Earl Cairns it will date from August 1938 when it was renamed from Bishops Castle. BR smokebox door number will need removing as will the mechanical lubricator on the drivers side infront of the leading splasher. It is supplied with the Hawksworth tender which was not used on Castles until the late 1940's/early 1950's and would need swopping for a Collett 4,000 gallon type.The rest is painting/lining alterations as mentioned above

 

 

5068 Beverston Castle: Built a year later in 1938 so changes as 5053 but this one supplied with correct tender for the 1930's. Could also be renumbered 5044, the original Beverston Castle.

 

7007 Great Western/Ogmore Castle:Not much of a back date possible with this one as it was built in1946 as Ogmore Castle with a 4,000 gallon Collett tender.(Hawksworths appeared from 7008 onwards) Mechanical lubricator is fine (Standard from 7000 onwards) It did not become GREAT WESTERN until 1948. Not much of a back date possible with this one as it was built.

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike Wiltshire

[OnTheBranchline]

5011 Tintagel has a different inside cylinder chest cover and is not suitable.

 

5053 Earl Cairns in 1930's condition need the inside cylinder chest cover altering to remove the 1940's onward fitted footstep. As Earl Cairns it will date from August 1938 when it was renamed from Bishops Castle. BR smokebox door number will need removing as will the mechanical lubricator on the drivers side infront of the leading splasher. It is supplied with the Hawksworth tender which was not used on Castles until the late 1940's/early 1950's and would need swopping for a Collett 4,000 gallon type.The rest is painting/lining alterations as mentioned above

 

 

5068 Beverston Castle: Built a year later in 1938 so changes as 5053 but this one supplied with correct tender for the 1930's. Could also be renumbered 5044, the original Beverston Castle.

 

7007 Great Western/Ogmore Castle:Not much of a back date possible with this one as it was built in1946 as Ogmore Castle with a 4,000 gallon Collett tender.(Hawksworths appeared from 7008 onwards) Mechanical lubricator is fine (Standard from 7000 onwards) It did not become GREAT WESTERN until 1948. Not much of a back date possible with this one as it was built.

 

Hope this helps

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hi Mike,

 

I forgot to mention that I would probably backdate the Castle(s) back to the 1942-1948 G W period.

 

For the inside cylinder chest cover, the new Hornby 1942-1948 GW "Wellington Castle" has the same chest cover and steam pipes as the early 1950s BR Castles: http://www.Hornby.com/shop/locomotives/steam-locomotives/r3105-gwr-4-6-0-wellington-castle-class-gwr-green-hawksworth-tender/ . Unless this is a mistake on Hornby's part.

 

Edit: I found a picture of 5098 Clifford Castle in Great Western Railway Journal No.36, and it has the same chest cover as the early BR Castles but not the same steam pipes.

[Rhydgaled]

This topic was this nearest I could find to a question I wanted to ask. Is the 'Shirtbutton' livery on the Castles (Hornby ones in particular) the same as the one with Great <crest> Western on the tender apart from the logos? At some point (IF I ever get around to building any sort of layout) I'd like a model of 'Cardigan Castle' in Great <crest> Western livery but I think Hornby only made it in Shirtbutton livery. I'm wondering whether I could just get a seperate castle in the Great <crest> Western livery, swap the tenders and sell on the other castle with the unwanted shirtbutton tender. Alternatively, is it easier to rename and renumber a Great <crest> Western castle to Cardigan Castle or scrub the shirtbutton logo off the Cardigan Castle model and apply Great <crest> Western transfers?

[Coach bogie]

The simplest solution is to find a 5011 Tintagel and rename as 4087 Cardigan Castle. The inside chest is as near as you are going to get. If uing the current high spec Castle then 5011 is the only version produced with the original inside cylinder cover -all other releases have been for 5014 onwards. Shirt button lvery is the same as the Great Crest Western livery apart from the logo.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Rhydgaled]

The simplest solution is to find a 5011 Tintagel and rename as 4087 Cardigan Castle. The inside chest is as near as you are going to get. If uing the current high spec Castle then 5011 is the only version produced with the original inside cylinder cover -all other releases have been for 5014 onwards. Shirt button lvery is the same as the Great Crest Western livery apart from the logo.

 

Mike Wiltshire

I imagine there is quite a price differential between the old castle and the high-spec one, and I'm not all that interested in fragile details (I have a Hornby King model which I think is quite old and am happy with how it looks). I've tried Googling images of the castles and can't work out what the difference between 5011 and 5029 (Nunney Castle) is, is there a helpful comparison image with the differences highlighted anywhere?