Running mk1 coaches with mk2's

[Clagsniffer]

After reading an article in a magazine recently (think it was model rail) I read that if a mk1 coach was to run in a rake with mk2's it would need to be on B4, B5 or commonwealth bogies. Is this true? Is the reason for this for speed ratings? I think this would only effect me with regards to BG's and restaurant cars but would be interested to know if I ever needed to run say an SK in a formation with mk2's if it would need an upgraded bogie.

 

Thanks.

[Merfyn Jones]

After reading an article in a magazine recently (think it was model rail) I read that if a mk1 coach was to run in a rake with mk2's it would need to be on B4, B5 or commonwealth bogies. Is this true? Is the reason for this for speed ratings? I think this would only effect me with regards to BG's and restaurant cars but would be interested to know if I ever needed to run say an SK in a formation with mk2's if it would need an upgraded bogie.

 

Thanks.

 

No, the train would just have to run at no more than 90mph if the SK was on B1 bogies.

Merf.

[The Stationmaster]

No, the train would just have to run at no more than 90mph if the SK was on B1 bogies.

Merf.

Unless they were specially maintained and stencilled for 100mph running.

[Flood]

Also to be strictly accurate you should make sure that the Mk1 and Mk2 vehicles are either all vacuum braked or all air braked.

 

Only the Southern region had air braked SK and BCK stock. A large number of BGs, First Opens, Restaurants/Buffets/Kitchen Buffets and some open seconds were converted to either have both vacuum and air brake mechanisms or solely air brake around 1967 to 1970 so they could run with the air braked Mk2 stock.

 

The original Mk2 stock, designated Mk2, Mk2Z or by Bachmann (incorrectly) Mk2S, was all vacuum braked. These are easily identifiable by having grey sliding doors in the corridor connection ends.

 

The Mk2a stock (green folding doors in the corridor connection ends) was built as all air braked but some First Class vehicles were converted to vacuum brakes between 1977 and 1979.

 

Empty coaching stock could run with a mix of brake types but would need a brake van at the rear of the train.

[YK 50A]

And steam or electric or dual heated in the winter...  I keep a set of RCTS and Platform 5 coaching stock books from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s to check which stock is compatible.

 

Flood, weren't some 1st class Mk2Zs fitted built with air brakes for the SR?  As well as the E&G push & pull Mk2Z's that got air disk brakes.  PS Did you see this from the Coaching Stock Yahoo Group with the traction rod facing the "wrong" way?  That was a new one to me.

 

Empty coaching stock could run with a mix of brake types but would need a brake van at the rear of the train.

 

I don't remember seeing anything like this in the flesh.  Could be interesting, do you mean a standard BR 20T brake van?

 

Alun

[giz]

PS Did you see this from the Coaching Stock Yahoo Group with the traction rod facing the "wrong" way?  That was a new one to me.

It seems to be common on the SR Mk2 FKs, there are photos of 13389 and 13393 in the old Ian Allan Rolling Stock Recognition: 1 Coaching Stock book each with one bogie the wrong way round.

[Flood]

And steam or electric or dual heated in the winter...  I keep a set of RCTS and Platform 5 coaching stock books from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s to check which stock is compatible.

 

Flood, weren't some 1st class Mk2Zs fitted built with air brakes for the SR?  As well as the E&G push & pull Mk2Z's that got air disk brakes.  PS Did you see this from the Coaching Stock Yahoo Group with the traction rod facing the "wrong" way?  That was a new one to me.

 

 

I don't remember seeing anything like this in the flesh.  Could be interesting, do you mean a standard BR 20T brake van?

 

Alun

I really shouldn't try to remember everything off the top of my head!

 

Absolutely correct about the heating, plus the air brake comment for the Mk2Z FK stock used on the Southern (along with the SKs, BCKs and some very old TSOs). By looking in Harris it seems that the FKs were built with air brakes and dual heat being later modified to electric heating only. I must admit that I've never taken much interest in them as I've never needed to model them, shame on me for such a blinkered attitude!

 

I did notice the comment about the traction rods on the forum as well. All very interesting, more delving is needed. Thanks also to giz for his observations.

 

Re ECS trains with different braking systems, it was first added in Supplement No. 1 of the General Appendix (August 1974). The attached is taken from Supplement No. 3 of the General Appendix (June 1978):

 

[YK 50A]

It seems to be common on the SR Mk2 FKs, there are photos of 13389 and 13393 in the old Ian Allan Rolling Stock Recognition: 1 Coaching Stock book each with one bogie the wrong way round.

 

So I understand, but I had no idea until a day or two ago!

 

I really shouldn't try to remember everything off the top of my head!

 

Absolutely correct about the heating, plus the air brake comment for the Mk2Z FK stock used on the Southern (along with the SKs, BCKs and some very old TSOs). By looking in Harris it seems that the FKs were built with air brakes and dual heat being later modified to electric heating only. I must admit that I've never taken much interest in them as I've never needed to model them, shame on me for such a blinkered attitude!

 

I did notice the comment about the traction rods on the forum as well. All very interesting, more delving is needed. Thanks also to giz for his observations.

 

Re ECS trains with different braking systems, it was first added in Supplement No. 1 of the General Appendix (August 1974). The attached is taken from Supplement No. 3 of the General Appendix (June 1978):

 

ECS with different brakes.jpg

 

Off the top of my head, well, I'm thinking Mk2 air con window depths! 

 

I don't have much interest from a modelling perspective of SR stock either, other than interregional workings (Bournemouth-York for example) and the odd "special" that modelling licence allows.

 

Where prototypical working practices (for me) can be limited, getting the train brakes and heating marshalled correctly adds to the fun and complexity.  Getting a dual braked 100mph Bachmann Mk1 BG for my air cons cost a few bob.  I wonder how long it will take Bachmann to release one again (and an RBR?) to accompany their Mk2Fs?  Then again, the Mk2Fs are conspicuous by their absence right now.

 

Thanks for the attached, another quirky but prototypical working to replicate.

 

Alun

[APOLLO]

Look at page 2 of my photo site below. Mk 1 & Mk 2 running together behind steam in 1966 /7

 

Probably didn't get to 90mph though !

 

Brit 15

[YK 50A]

Look at page 2 of my photo site below. Mk 1 & Mk 2 running together behind steam in 1966 /7

 

Some wonderful pictures there, but Mk2s behind a steam locomotive weren't unusual.  The first production Mk2s were built in 1964 and as alluded to be above, most were vacuum braked and (initially at least) dual heated.

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

Out of interest, this picture shows a Thompson (LNER) Buffet Lounge Car sandwiched between a pair of early Mk2s.  Another point of interest which has been discussed many times is that the coach furthest from the camera (a vacuum braked Mk2Z FK) carries the InterCity logo.  It is thought that only air braked Mk2s were meant to be branded InterCity.

Alun

[Bomag]

It is thought that only air braked Mk2s were meant to be branded InterCity.

Alun

 

Yes, they were supposed to, but to the average paint shop it is not obvious which ones were VB and which AB once it is masked out for painting.

[YK 50A]

Yes, they were supposed to, but to the average paint shop it is not obvious which ones were VB and which AB once it is masked out for painting.

 

I'm sorry, although I mentioned the branding as an aside to the thread topic, I can't let that one go.  Not only are there very obvious physical differences between Mk2Zs and Mk2As, but detailed schedules would accompany coaches around the various shops.  If your logic is followed, then how would a coach receive the correct data panels or for that matter running number?  Relevant staff would have known what they were dealing with and parts specific to the coach version would have needed their own application of paint.  For example brake rigging, cylinders, pipes - at the coach ends too - as well as the labels and lettering.

 

As the intention was to apply BR corporate livery strictly (the rules were not so much relaxed, but individual works were allowed to deviate with locomotives in particular from the late 70s), the consensus is that one or more works had misinterpreted the instruction, in the case of early Mk2s, probably briefly.  Another example of this was the variety of labels that similar catering cars received at the time.

 

Alun

[Bomag]

Not only are there very obvious physical differences between Mk2Zs and Mk2As, but detailed schedules would accompany coaches around the various shops.  If your logic is followed, then how would a coach receive the correct data panels or for that matter running number?  Relevant staff would have known what they were dealing with and parts specific to the coach version would have needed their own application of paint.

 

Alun

 

I thought you were discussing why some Mk2z got the wording and some not, e.g. AB/VB; the reference to Mk2z vs Mk2a is irrelavent to my point. My sisters first father-in-law worked at Wolverton for many years, the clear indication from him was that the painters took great care in what they did but would be less concerened with following 'policy'. Also the data panel was added after painting by a different set of technicians. It may have been different in other workshops.

[YK 50A]

I thought you were discussing why some Mk2z got the wording and some not, e.g. AB/VB; the reference to Mk2z vs Mk2a is irrelavent to my point. My sisters first father-in-law worked at Wolverton for many years, the clear indication from him was that the painters took great care in what they did but would be less concerened with following 'policy'. Also the data panel was added after painting by a different set of technicians. It may have been different in other workshops.

 

You're either mistaken or making it up.

[Bomag]

You're either mistaken or making it up.

 

 

To be able to say that you must have evidence from Wolverton that they worked differently. If you did have some why did you ask the question in the first place?

 

At no point did I say that they had deliberately put the wrong logos on; it's just that they would have followed what was on the schedule and not always rasied with management they were putting 'Intercity' on a VB vehicle in breach of policy.

 

Flicking through a 1984 P5 there were 41 AA1Z, 20 were VB, 15 AB with tread brakes and 6 AB with disk brakes. There were 41 AA1A 15 VB and 26 AB. It is therefore not beyond the capabilities of the BR admin of the 70s to identify the wrong paint scheme which may, or perhaps may not, be picked up in the workshop as they could paint similar vehicles with different logos.    

[Gwiwer]

After reading an article in a magazine recently (think it was model rail) I read that if a mk1 coach was to run in a rake with mk2's it would need to be on B4, B5 or commonwealth bogies. Is this true? Is the reason for this for speed ratings? I think this would only effect me with regards to BG's and restaurant cars but would be interested to know if I ever needed to run say an SK in a formation with mk2's if it would need an upgraded bogie.

 

Thanks.

 

Quite aside from what Wolverton and other carriage painters did or did not allegedly do it is perfectly prototypical to mix Mk1 and earlier Mk2 stock (pre air-con era) in the same rake.  How precise each of us wishes to be in terms of bogies, stock numbers and lettering is a decision for the individual.

 

100mph running was not the norm back in 1964 when Mk2 first appeared.  Even the most recent main line diesel types (class 47) were limited officially to 95mph although an honourable exception went to the ECML Deltics.

 

Most loco-hauled passenger trains seldom exceeded 80 - 85mph reaching 90 - 95 only on long stretches of suitable line.  As such a mix of Mk1 and Mk2 stock didn't always present any issues at all.  If speed was expected to exceed 90mph then the Mk1 coaches would have to be on more recent bogies.

 

WCML electrification brought about a general increase in speed and the need to have 100mph Mk1 stock in common with some ECML sets.  Not all such vehicles were ever converted.

 

Successive developments ultimately saw Mk2 stock of all builds running with Mk1 catering and full brake vehicles since none of the latter were built as Mk2 though a very few TSO and BSO vehicles were later converted to accommodate a catering trolley or miniature buffet counter.

 

WCML service enhancements also required some sets to be specially maintained and plated for 110mph running which might have been quite lively in a Mk1 restaurant car!

 

Subject to the degree of realism and accuracy any of us wishes to portray there is inherently nothing wrong with mixing early Mk2 coaches with Mk1.  It was still happening in BR Sector days with NSE loco-hauled sets of mixed Mk1 and Mk2 as the former were slowly phased out and the latter becomes available from other sectors released by the arrival of newer stock elsewhere.

[YK 50A]

Bomag, the bird had flown by 1984.  The E&G push and pull Mk2s did correctly receive InterCity branding, as probably did the Mk2Zs built with air brakes, again correctly.  It is perfectly feasible that those Mk2As converted to vacuum braking retained their InterCity logos.  The (secondary) point to the picture I posted was that it was a Mk2Z with vacuum brakes.  The different versions are technically and visually very different.  Are you seriously telling me that InterCity was applied by different technicians to the data panels, what about running numbers, who painted the (very different) underframe fittings, brake pipes?  This would be very obvious stuff for a railwayman to look out for, let alone the fact that they weren't just slapping paint on.  The instruction would have been misinterpreted by a layer or layers of management, it would not be workmen not knowing what they were working on.  Can you subscribe to the Coaching Stock Yahoo Group and post all this?  There are probably colleagues of your "sisters first father-in-law" on there.  By the way, this was probably only relevant from September 1970 and for a very short time afterwards.

 

Gwiwer, you forgot about brakes and heating.  Prior to 1967, outside of the SR there wasn't any air brake only mainline stock to speak of and BR1 bogies were initially cleared for 100mph running.  The ride deteriorated quickly on BR1s and from c1960 new builds received Commonwealth bogies and subsequently (c1965) BR1 bogies started being replaced by B4s and B5s.  In the case of B4s and B5s, it was coaches that were scheduled for 100mph running and catering and sleeping cars (and TPOs) regardless.  There were other variations too, such as a small number of catering cars receiving Gresley bogies.  If you follow what has already been said in posts 4 and 5 you won't go far wrong.  All this twaddle about "InterCity" branding started - I asked for it, wish I'd never bothered - by me posting a picture of a Thompson Buffet car sandwiched between a pair of Mk2Zs.  Indeed, Mk2Zs were built with vacuum brakes to make them compatible with existing Mk1s and also stock originating from pre 1948 designs.

 

This is going around in circles, has already been answered, but I don't like mistakes being stated as fact.  I will now take my ball home, or more accurately to the parent and toddler group.

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - added "outside of the SR" ***

[6959]

Turning this subject around, I need an excuse to run one of the maroon Mk2 FK coaches in a rake of maroon MK1s. Can anyone suggest a realistic formation on Western region? Thanks in advance.

 

 

Picture courtesy of eHattons.

[YK 50A]

Turning this subject around, I need an excuse to run one of the maroon Mk2 FK coaches in a rake of maroon MK1s. Can anyone suggest a realistic formation on Western region? Thanks in advance.

 

39-332A_27199_Qty1_2.jpg

 

Picture courtesy of eHattons.

 

Did I noticed in another thread that you have 13 of the Hachette Mk1 SKs and were looking for another 10?  How many coaches are you looking to have in a rake?  The reason I'm asking is that on my layout I can comfortably accommodate a rake of 4 or 5 Mk1s and Mk2s, so in the main, I'm using "modellers licence" to represent much longer rakes, although I have a cross country 5 coach set which is marshalled as per a photograph I have of a Liverpool-Scarborough train.  If you're seriously looking at prototypical lengths, can I suggest you join the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group just to gain access to the files section.  There's a huge number of "books" detailing what was diagrammed where and when.

 

Theoretically, there would be nothing to stop you mixing maroon and blue/grey Mk1s and Mk2s (not Inter City branded), probably chocolate and cream Mk1s too.

 

To answer your question, you would just replace a Mk1 FK with the Mk2 FK (W13433 was also allocated to the WR) along with a brake or brakes, probably some open stock and a catering car if you so wish.

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - capitalisation ***

[6959]

Did I noticed in another thread that you have 13 of the Hachette Mk1 SKs and were looking for another 10?  How many coaches are you looking to have in a rake?  The reason I'm asking is that on my layout I can comfortably accommodate a rake of 4 or 5 Mk1s and Mk2s, so in the main, I'm using "modellers licence" to represent much longer rakes, although I have a cross country 5 coach set which is marshalled as per a photograph I have of a Liverpool-Scarborough train.  If you're seriously looking at prototypical lengths, can I suggest you join the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo Group just to gain access to the files section.  There's a huge number of "books" detailing what was diagrammed where and when.

 

Theoretically, there would be nothing to stop you mixing maroon and blue/grey Mk1s and Mk2s (not Inter City branded), probably chocolate and cream Mk1s too.

 

To answer your question, you would just replace a Mk1 FK with the Mk2 FK (W13433 was also allocated to the WR) along with a brake or brakes, probably some open stock and a catering car if you so wish.

 

Alun

 

*** EDIT - capitalisation ***

 

My plan for the Hachette maroon MK1 coaches, which I bought on impulse, was to keep about five as SK, convert a few to SOs with interiors from Replica Railways, and use any others as parts or possibly overlay some with Comet sides. There is a way of putting old Tri-ang Hornby MK1 sides onto the Hachette or Replica Railways base. Since then, the Hornby MK1s have come out and before long they will probably be on sale for a tenner or less secondhand so repairing and modifying older stock is poor economy. If the back order for ten more Hachette coaches turns up I shall buy them but I am not too concerned if they don't. Seemed like a good idea at the time and only 40 quid at risk. My prime interest is early to mid 1950s. Some maroon coaches are needed to go behind various steam engines with double chimneys, or green diesels. Since I bought the Hachette coaches I have been researching titled trains on Western Region. From photo's I now realise that I can mix and match crimson & cream, and chocolate & cream, with maroon up until about 1963. Then brown & cream, maroon and maybe very early blue & grey - post 1964 with yellow first class bands and red banded diners.It jJust needs a bit of care to keep the rake at the appropriate time in history. It needs a large house for a layout to run 20 coach trains like I counted in 1950s but many long trains were actually several short trains that were combined or split en route so the short sections can be run separately as if just before combining or separating. A former carriage shunter who worked at Pylle Hill and Parson Street told me that they built rakes into five or seven coach trains. In the 1950s I counted coaches and found that 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 19, 20 and 21 coach trains were quite common. All these can be made up from 5 or 7 coach trains, plus and odd BG if required or NPCCS vehicle to make up the numbers.

[YK 50A]

From photo's I now realise that I can mix and match crimson & cream, and chocolate & cream, with maroon up until about 1963.

 

And beyond, maroon certainly survived on the Midland into the early 1970s.  Out of interest, have a look at this photograph; the rake has Mk1s in Chocolate & Cream, Maroon and Blood & Custard, followed by a Hawksworth FK with a yellow band.

 

I can't comment on your rake lengths, out of my era and region, the most coaches I counted were 16, it was a sleeper and it was a one off, a Deltic + 8 (or 9 or 10) was typical in my youth, but as you potentially have the opportunity to run scale length trains, I again suggest you join the Yahoo BR Coaching Stock Group I posted a link to above.

 

Alun

[ChrisH]

Without wishing to re-ignite the debate about Inter City Mk2Zs, I did notice the unusual presentation of the blue/ grey on the Thompson with no vertical white line at the ends of the grey panel.

 

I would add that paint shops did get it wrong from time to time. In the late '60s Eastleigh was repainting LM coaches into Blue/grey for the West Coast electric service. The first rake they did appeared with the circular coaching stock crest.  When questioned, the answer was "We always put crests on LM stock".  It was corrected before release.

 

Incidentally, if the paint shop is working to spec. the Inter City and vehicle number should have been applied before painting.

 

Chris  (ex Eastleigh)

[YK 50A]

Without wishing to re-ignite the debate about Inter City Mk2Zs, I did notice the unusual presentation of the blue/ grey on the Thompson with no vertical white line at the ends of the grey panel.

 

I would add that paint shops did get it wrong from time to time. In the late '60s Eastleigh was repainting LM coaches into Blue/grey for the West Coast electric service. The first rake they did appeared with the circular coaching stock crest.  When questioned, the answer was "We always put crests on LM stock".  It was corrected before release.

 

Incidentally, if the paint shop is working to spec. the Inter City and vehicle number should have been applied before painting.

 

Chris  (ex Eastleigh)

 

That's a good point and I hadn't noticed the lack of the white lines.  I'm guessing no one got to take photographs of the roundels on blue/grey stock?  That would create some "chatter" if one turned up in someone's archive.

 

Until the picture of the Thompson and Mk2Zs turned up, I hadn't seen (or at least noted) a vacuum braked Mk2Z with Inter City branding.  There was plenty of anecdotal evidence (people claiming to have seen the odd one, normally standing out because it was in an otherwise non InterCity branded rake) and for that matter matter a perceived likelihood that it would have happened by mistake.  In other words "we always put InterCity on Mk2 stock" and the instruction to not brand them failing to be passed on through the tiers of management.

 

Alun

[YK 50A]

I did notice the unusual presentation of the blue/ grey on the Thompson with no vertical white line at the ends of the grey panel.

 

Have a look at this Flickr Group, not so unusual for LNER origin catering cars by all accounts!  Hope it's of interest.

 

Alun