PGC Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 To me, this seems like someone hasn't things through. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25025888 I wonder if anyone's asked when basic maintenance of the track, signalling etc. will take place? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I wonder if anyone's asked when basic maintenance of the track, signalling etc. will take place? Phil Simple. Vast chunks of the network are completely shut down for weekends at a time. Replacement buses ensure that a "service" is maintained. (The replacement bus routes are now permanently signposted). Obviously central planning at TfL is Monday to Friday, nine to five, office work. No concept that anyone works in central London at weekends and they consider that visitors for recreation and tourism don't mind a little inconvenience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNERGE Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Railways simply don't wear out anymore. Try and keep up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Simple. Vast chunks of the network are completely shut down for weekends at a time. Replacement buses ensure that a "service" is maintained. (The replacement bus routes are now permanently signposted). Obviously central planning at TfL is Monday to Friday, nine to five, office work. No concept that anyone works in central London at weekends and they consider that visitors for recreation and tourism don't mind a little inconvenience. The original link is suggesting that the Underground would be open 24hr at weekends. This means either that someone has done a detailed analysis of engineering requirements and concluded that the lines can be maintained in the remaining weekday overnight periods or that is is a politically motivated half-thought-through idea that will lead to the sort of deterioration of the Underground that we saw on the main line under Railtrack Take your pick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 To me, this seems like someone hasn't things through. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25025888 I wonder if anyone's asked when basic maintenance of the track, signalling etc. will take place? Phil Presumably with those lines open on Friday and Saturday nights. it will be on Sunday. Remember to go by bus that day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2013 ISTR a troglodytic race called Fluffs inhabit & sweep the tunnels overnight, ensuring that the tunnels are clear of rubbish and hence fire risk. Perhaps I'm out of date, and a giant Dyson has the job these days. Perhaps specified overnight trains will have an additional Dyson car attached. My occasional journeys on the Paris metro in the last 12 months have required me to use a ticket machine, as the former ticket offices no longer function in that capacity. Chaos has not resulted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 Given that multiple bits of line are shut all weekend anyhow, running the rest of it a little more to compensate somehow seems natural (if a little simplistic...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted November 22, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2013 Any number of main line routes operate 24 hrs, so presumably the routes being mooted for 24 hours weekend running would have the same engineering and maintenance challenges (as an aside, can I be the only one who gets irritated by the fact engineering work has now been renamed "improvement" works for the station announcements?). As has been said, when the need arises, alternatives (i.e. buses) can be provided. Somewhere between the "it'll all be great and wonderful and shiny" from TFL and "disaster; the tube will become a death-trap and all the staff are going to loose their jobs" from the Unions lies the truth. That said, the threat to use 'every tool at our disposal' from the Unions - including suggested strike action in the run-up to Christmas - isn't going to win the hearts and minds of the travelling public; especially if they see the prospect of an 'improved' tube service being threatened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 FYI Route Map http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/cstp-night-map-2.jpg Another piece of undeliverable Boris PR puff? Also noting (of course) the huge swathes of the Capital that are nowhere near these lines/sections of lines so it is of a limited benefit to the 'nightime economy'. Particularly the 'hotspots' of Shoreditch/Hoxton/Dalston/'Silicon Roundabout' - as the the Bank Branch of the Northern Line does not feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 FYI - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/shutting-tube-ticket-offices-is-a-step-too-far-8957162.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointstaken Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I think you will find, Ian, that "fluffers" have long been a thing of the past, replaced by the tunnel cleaning train (indeed a giant Dyson, Hoover, or whatever you want to call it). Dennis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissRailPassion Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Quite a few people living near surface routes are going to be disturbed through the night. Particularly on the Piccadilly and Northern. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 My occasional journeys on the Paris metro in the last 12 months have required me to use a ticket machine, as the former ticket offices no longer function in that capacity. Chaos has not resulted. Agreed. There is hardly a metro or tram system in Europe that still uses ticket offices - in London the vast majority of regular users now have Oyster cards or National Rail All Zones season, or through London singles/returns or Zonal add on to their main line ticket. The key people affected will be occasional users including tourists, but one day (or longer) Oysters can be obtained from almost any tobacconist/newsagents now, and a wide range of tickets is available from the modern ticket machines in the booking halls, which take cards and cash. LUL's key challenge will be to ensure that info, on how to buy a ticket, to occasional or first time users is obvious, comprehensible and up to date - something they have not been great at. On 24 hour operation of some lines, the expected chaos caused by extended opening times during the 2012 games, did not materialise. The New York Subway has been running on most lines for 24 hours, 6 or 7 days a week, for decades. Whilst they do have greater parallel routes to allow eng work to take place on one line whilst they use the other, they have proven that 7/7 maintenance of any individual track is unnecessary for safe and reliable operation. In fact in Winter, 24 hour operation provides greater reliability, especially on open sections. So, to do it just two nights a week is not a great risk, but is a significant cost. I am not sure how the Union battle will pan out, if the level of passenger side staffing will increase, and if the redundancies envisaged are not compulsory (wastage and retirements will easily meet that number in a year) - what's the argument? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 am not sure how the Union battle will pan out, if the level of passenger side staffing will increase, and if the redundancies envisaged are not compulsory (wastage and retirements will easily meet that number in a year) - what's the argument? Bob Crow? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2013 I think the ticket office stuff is a red herring, I think the RMT have to represent their members but from a passenger perspective I think shutting ticket offices will have a negligible/insignificant impact. As has been noted by others, most Metro systems around the world rely on ticket machines and/or oyster style cards and work perfectly well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 LU could always check with the NYC Subway which runs 24/7/365.............. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I can see some problems with maintenance and faults. I work on the comms side with the Connect contract.We maintain almost anything that is comms - radio, data transmission, phones, cctv transmission (but not the cameras), autophones (the internal phone network), cabling (RF, data, fibre, phones). Often when a job is put out, we have to put it on hold until Engineering Hours, as we cannot access trackside during Traffic Hours (though occasionally we can on the "daylight" bits out of the tunnels, but obviously with stringent safety procedures followed). Engineering Hours are (except Sat night/Sun morning) generally around 0100/0130 till around 0430, depending on location. This corresponds to the running of the last passenger train, to the station re-opening. So we could turn up for say 0130 start, but then have to sign in with the Station Supervisor. He may make us wait until he has seen the last train go, and he has formally closed the station (cleared drunks, done logbook etc). Then we sign in, presenting passes and various authorisations to work. If going trackside, we also have to have a Protection Master to take charge of our safety; this all takes time. Our 0130 start can easily reach 0200 or beyond. If the 1st morning train is say 0515/0530, we can't just work to 5 minutes before. We have to make allowances with our work so we don't over-run (VERY costly fines). We may well look at finishing an hour before, that is 0415-0430. This gives us a little leeway in case the job takes longer, also when we switch the kit back on, it takes time to boot up (and of course may not do so at 1st attempt....). And then the SS has to do his station checks before he opens up the Bostwick gates to the punters, a little while before the last train; we have to be out of his way by then. So realistically, we get 2hrs or slightly more to do our job. Everything has to be transported from the van by hand, and back again afterwards. We cannot leave it unattended down under and go back for other bits. That eats into our window. The job may not be an obvious one, but involve tracing cables behind panels (they need to be removed and replaced) in the station area, then down the tunnel. We may have to go halfway to the next station, carrying everything, whilst tracing and testing for the fault. So what is in reality a simple fault (anywhere else in the world but the Underground) cannot be immediately found and fixed. We possibly have to defer it until the next night, and this may happen a few times. A simple cable joint gone faulty can take days (nights) to do. And then we have Sabre numbers allocated by LU to allow us to enter the site (for safety & security reasons), these are date specific and may have to be re-applied for before we return to finish the job. At present we have 7 nights per week. If this is almost halved (they are talking Fri-Sat to start with, but may also go to Thurs as well), how long is a job going to go on for....? If they lose the comms, it can lead to a station - or complete line - closure until fixed. I have heard it quoted, that until fairly recently (into the PPP era) that the track guys could only manage to change 1-1/2 sleepers on average during Engineering Hours, though that has been improved on with some mechanisation (awkward to go the full way in the restricted tunnel) and CWR now being used. Interesting times ahead! Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadway Clive Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Some of the contributors who dismiss the maintenance issue dont seem to be aware that the tube lines of LUL are in approxiimately 12ft diameter tubes through central London and there are not places of safety that workers can move to whilst inspecting or attending to tracks and equipment. Only in the double track sub surface lines of the Metropolitan and District lines have men ever been allowed to remain in the tunnels whilst trains are running, doing emergency repairs at a specified place with drivers warned accordingly at the previous station, and trains restricted to walking pace. A friend who runs replacement buses wonders if his buses might get more work providing the new all night services in the future! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Some of the contributors who dismiss the maintenance issue dont seem to be aware that the tube lines of LUL are in approxiimately 12ft diameter tubes through central London and there are not places of safety that workers can move to whilst inspecting or attending to tracks and equipment. Only in the double track sub surface lines of the Metropolitan and District lines have men ever been allowed to remain in the tunnels whilst trains are running, doing emergency repairs at a specified place with drivers warned accordingly at the previous station, and trains restricted to walking pace. A friend who runs replacement buses wonders if his buses might get more work providing the new all night services in the future! Not dismissing it Clive - just saying maintenance is not necessarily needed on every inch of every track 7 nights a week. Clearly, faults or emergency repairs in tube tunnels are a different issue, and would usually require closure for rectification. But, in my brief (5 years) recent experience closely working with LUL on Olympics upgrades projects, the level of emergency infrastructure problems fell dramatically over the period, on Jubilee, D&C, H&C, Central and Northern. Don't know about the others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted November 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 25, 2013 Lets get this into perspective shall we - 24hr running is only planned for 2 nights out of 7. Emergency work / faults excepting, surely its not beyond the abilities of LU to arrange the maintenance to happen on the remaining 5 nights? If big jobs are planned then the overnight window is not normally long enough anyway - hence the increasing use of weekend blockades like NR does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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