6959 Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 When I am ready to buy some model railway items/s I first go to eHattons to see what is actually available and to check the prices. In the past few weeks there has been more and more so-called Like New stock mixed in with the brand new. Today I got fed up with eHattons after a couple of pages and shut it down. I do not want to look at eHattons anymore which is a shame. I think strongly that Like New should be kept separate from brand new. Looks like more of my interest will go to Portishead in future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 22, 2013 Share Posted November 22, 2013 I know what you mean, it went from being hard to find on the site to being everywhere. Do a search on bargains or about to sell out and it's full of pre owned. It does draw attention to what they have but I would like the option to not include them in a search and the need to be careful on the descriptions because valve gearing falling off does not constitute good as new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I know what you mean, it went from being hard to find on the site to being everywhere. Do a search on bargains or about to sell out and it's full of pre owned. It does draw attention to what they have but I would like the option to not include them in a search and the need to be careful on the descriptions because valve gearing falling off does not constitute good as new. I agree keep new and secondhand separate to avoid any chance of confusion. Rails of Sheffield started pushing secondhand items this year with their update mails however at no doubt was there any doubt that the items were pre- owned. A lot of them being Lima was a giveaway too ! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium mezzoman253 Posted November 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2013 Has anyone told Hattons this method is losing them regular customers. maybe they'd alter the search engine, to a more suitable format, if they knew. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Obviously another retailer that is seeing a large drop in brand new item sales, in their defence, second hand stuff sells like hotcakes at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lee Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Sometimes thre is only a £1 or so between second hand and new. Considering that I believe that you have more consumer rights with new items, I find this suprising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueeighties Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Have to agree with Richard there, a lot of the used stuff offer next to no price advantage over the brand new item. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Well this thread has got them an extra £30. I read this thread earlier and had a quick look at what was available. As a result I have ordered a couple of Bachmann Mk 2a TSOs in B/G for £15 each. Can't complain at that price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I fear the shortage of new stock coupled with the silly prices Hattons are asking will be a trigger for a huge increase in the cost of second hand stock in general. I have bought quite a few s/h locos from many sources over the years, some real bargains, one or two duffers that needed work. Still have a couple in the "works". I won't pay Hattons prices for their s/h stuff, mint boxed or not. I am a satisfied customer for their new (usually discounted) stuff. Will be less of a customer as those become unavailable / unaffordable (for me). Our hobby is changing direction, quickly, and getting evermore a bit too expensive. Brit15. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 I've just visited eHattons and 'regular' Hattons to check out all of these pre-owned bargains that are contaminating the hallowed list of brand new stock, except it's not really like that at all. (Unless I'm doing something wrong). In a 5 minute random 'click and see what's in this section' test, I found the grand total of two pre-owned items. I think there is an over-reaction here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Have a look at Hornby steam locos. http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000389/1000588/1000640/0/Hornby_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos/prodlist.aspx Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 OK, just looked. 8 out of 96 items listed are described as pre-owned. That's 8.3%. I stand by my point. I didn't come on here to pick a fight btw, but I just thought that the OP's point was wildly off the mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Beat me to it Mickey....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 The point is that the unsuspecting might not notice the pre-owned tags, I suppose distance selling rights will protect but I prefer to keep new and secondhand separate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 The prices really surprise me. In a couple of instances I noted secondhand items at a pound or two MORE than the same item new in stock, if you hunted around the website. One example that surprised me with this when it turned up was a class 108 in GMPT livery, that Hattons have had in their bargains section for ages at a knock down price. The secondhand item turned up at £2 more. Why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 The rise in Asian labour costs, and/or its unavailability or unreliability, has brought about 'supply chain constraints' which is company-speak for less stuff to sell, so Hattons and Rails of Sheffield have increased trading in second-hand items. 'Pre-owned' will still be covered by consumer law as in fit for purpose, but of course this might not included replacement, but a refund if clearly faulty (less postage). I imagine the fairly high prices reflect the risk they take in selling pre-owned items, as their trading reputations would require that they refund or replace. Some sellers on Ebay will offer refunds if goods are returned in 14 days. There are no surprises here. It is called trading. Some 'pre-owned' stuff is *to me* as good as brand new, especially with assembly issues in RTR 00 being as bad as ever, I am loath to say worse, having no real facts, only supposition. (about 3% new are seriously faulty, about 50% have minor issues, the remainder are fine, in my purchasing of RTR 00) So to me the pre-owned stuff I would ask about 80% of a discounted new item or 60% of RRP give or take. Not sure if I would include the pre-owned in a list of new, though. I think there might be a place for selling pre-owned items which have been carefully checked for faults by somebody competent, but this would raise the price to suit 'pre-owned, checked, no obvious fault' or some such. 'As new' is too vague. Costly to unpack, test run, check all details and repair any loose bits, repack without damage. I wouldn't think many could do that job well. Just a few thoughts, since I buy new and used, and re-sell a bit. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kintbury jon Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Just for info. The two TSO's that I bought (post #8 ) arrived on Monday (ordered Saturday lunch time!). The coaches are in good condition though I might suggest that 'like new' is a slight overstatement! Interestingly the 39-360 labels on the box have had replacement labels stuck on. Still very happy with the purchase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 Under the Distance Selling Regulations a buyer is entitled to return the item or items to the seller for any reason without needing say why. A simple statement that it is not wanted is sufficient. That is why the long established catalogue sellers like Freemans and Littlewoods justified higher prices than in high street shops. I wonder if this applies to secondhand goods that are described as 'Like New'. Perhaps wiser counsels amongst us can comment on how the Distance selling Regulations apply to used goods sold by mail order. Ebay rules state that all goods sold on 'Buy It Now' are subject to these regulations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted November 29, 2013 Author Share Posted November 29, 2013 My opinion is that after a retail sale the actual value of any item is its selling price before sales tax was added. UK prices are with VAT added and the amount of tax is hidden but in Canada and other countries where goods are displayed at a price and the dreaded GST, PST, HST or whatever is added at the till this is more obvious. In theory tax is not recoverable so a £100 item bought in the UK with twenty percent VAT is worth only 83.33 percent of total price or about £83. Going by the old saying, "cheap at half the price", the most a dealer would want to offer for a £100 item is about £40 tops. Whether or not the seller is registered for VAT determines if the final price of a used item includes VAT or not. Many years ago I bought a Grafar OO GWR 94xx for £9 from Model Highways in Bristol. After a week I decided I did not want it so I asked Colin how much he would buy it back for. He offered £6 and after I complained that it was a bit low he explained that he could buy a new one from Farish for that price and he was being generous because without a good look at it and track testing it there could be a difference between his selling price of a new item versus a used item . I still have that loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2013 In all of these things the final choice always lies with the purchaser - you buy something because you like it or want it and if it is going at a price you are prepared and able to pay, it really is as simple as that. If you think it's too expensive then don't buy it and look elsewhere, it is not compulsory to buy any particular item from any particular retailer. As far as descriptions are concerned I would take 'like new' to mean exactly what it says and if it isn't in that condition I would be seeking a refund and or contacting Trading Standards. But 'like new' condition need not relate to price because that is driven by all sorts of other things such as availability and rarity and would be set accordingly by the seller. If something is in short supply and demand is high the price tends to rise, if there are masses of whatever it is available or few people want one the price will fall. Condition can become a more important factor is setting a price if items in good condition are rare among what is otherwise a surfeit of that item or if the market demands that particular item only in top notch condition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 The secondhand item turned up at £2 more. Why? Saves you from having to run it in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I would prefer that 2nd hand stock was listed away from new stock, but it is not a dealbreaker for me. What is a dealbreaker is that Hattons is charging above the odds for their stock. For example. their Class 221 2nd hand was as expensive as a new one from another retailer. Considering that I too am a very happy "new stock" Hattons customer I am disappointed with this, BUT as mentioned above it relfects the mood of the market. There is limited supply of new models, so 2nd hand are commanding higher prices to fill the demand. Overall the hobby is getting more expensive (and pushing at the doors of what is sustainable imho) and this is now being passed onto the 2nd hand market both because people are turning to 2nd hand to find a bargain, and because sellers need to pay their costs without having new stock to sell. I have a personal rule that I will not pay more than about 80% of the cheapest new selling price I can find for a 2nd hand item (with odd exceptions made for limited editions or rare items) it basically leaves me to scour model shops without websites on my tours up and down the country. I have found a few sought after items this way. The other thing I tend to do is to go to toy fairs and exhibitions. Often the bargains will outweigh the cost of the ticket. I'm sure that Hattons will return to business as usual once all the mess in China is sorted but perhaps it is telling that I used to go on Hattons to browse at least every other day, and now I only maybe once every other week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I have a personal rule that I will not pay more than about 80% of the cheapest new selling price I can find for a 2nd hand item other week. That's more generous than me then, I try (?) to stick to two thirds (66%-ish). Now - anyone got any spare Bachmann Ivatt class 2 moguls to offload ?? OOpps goin' OT again ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Hi Just wondered..... Do they charge VAT on these second hand items? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Just wondering about Hattons weathered locos, Rxxxx HXW. http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000389/1000588/1000640/0/Hornby_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Steam_locos/prodlist.aspx Says pre owned and Hattons Weathered. Does this add value (for Hattons) ?. Again not cheap. As Kal says above surely VAT should not be charged on second hand items ? Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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