br-nse-fan Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Hello everyone! I finally got my B/G MLV out of the box and running, and must say that I am very impressed! I also have several old Lima class 73's, most will probably be upgraded (?) with Hornby chassis. One of them however has not been functional for years due to the gears shattering. I've since removed the entire motor assembly and as such, created an unpowered dummy loco. My initial thought was to run it as a double header with another 73, or even stick it on a 411 or 423. It then occoured to me that it might not look out of place running top and tail with the MLV. My question is now... did this ever happen? I've had a look around, and have not been able to find anything to support this idea. Yes, I know it's my layout and can run what I want, but I was wondering if there was any proof of this happening? If the 73 would not be an appropriate addition to the train, what would the MLV have been seen hauling? I know they used to be paired with CEPs... what about general MK1 stock? If so, any suggestions as to what would be contained within the rake? Many thanks in advance! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I am not aware of. Class 73 AND move combination however a Class 73 hauling/ propelling a 4CEP or 4VEP over non electrified section at reduced speed could be an option. The most unusual Class 73 working I ever saw was in the late 1980's which was a double headed Class 73 hauling 2 Class 317's ! at speed on the up main through Slough station in a Saturday morning . So never say never as strange workings do occur,so you could of had a situation where the MLV batteries where flat and a Class 73 was added to help with the off juice workings at Dover. XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 The most unusual Class 73 working I ever saw was in the late 1980's which was a double headed Class 73 hauling 2 Class 317's ! at speed on the up main through Slough station in a Saturday morning . So never say never as strange workings do occur,so you could of had a situation where the MLV batteries where flat and a Class 73 was added to help with the off juice workings at Dover. XF I remember seeing a 73 at Shenfield one evening rush, having run from Eastleigh to Norwich to collect some Anglia coaches to go down for refurbishment of some description. It ran out of fuel and had to be dragged back to Stratford by a 37. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 In theory, a class 73 and an MLV could work in multiple, or top and tail stock. However, I haven't seen or heard of any evidence to say this did actually occur - if it did happen it would have been a rare event.I have seen a photo of a 73 (E6006, from memory) sandwiched between a 4 CEP unit and some loco-hauled, vacuum braked Bulleid stock on a special test train. The train was driven from the leading 4 CEP cab.That photo appeared in the Modern Locomotives Illustrated edition on classes 73 and 74, and I am sure I have seen the same photo in other texts too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Whilst it's possible, it would be impossible to run the 73 and MLV in multiple as there's no control jumpers on non-EPB type stock. The haulage capacity of an MLV is very limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 73s (and 74s) were fully compatible with EP stock and had the control jumpers on the cab fronts. They were even used as substitute 4 REP motor coaches when the equipment was being transferred to the then new Wessex units (class 442). MLVs were used regularly in multiple with 4 CEPs and BEPs as well as other MLVs. In the example I referred to earlier, the 73 was not only under control from the 4 CEP cab, its braking system included a vacuum exhauster and it was translating the EP brake commands to the vacuum brake system connected to the Bulleid stock. As an aside, the MLVs could also perform this translation function and had vacuum exhausters on board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 From introduction up to the end of the "boat train" era, the MLVs were mostly occupied working in multiple with 4CEPs (and 4BEPs before refurbishment), in 13-car Victoria-Dover Marine/Western Docks or Victoria-Folkestone Harbour trains, plus a few odd workings in multiple with 4CEP/4VEP, and singly on a parcels working. An MLV actually hauling unpowered stuff was pretty rare. Many photos of their workings in another thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43622-mlv-pre-production-shots/ (16 pages worth). Nothing technically to prevent them working together, but did it happen? Not a lot of evidence. I never saw it as a Kentish trainspotter in the 70s/80s. There were railtours making the most of the SR's inter-compatibility, including the Electro-Diesel Grice: http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/70s/790120da.htm a 73+4TC+buffet car+4TC which worked around Kent. The buffet car being one of two SR ones fitted for MU working with EP-type stock. You could invent a railtour with 73+4TC+MLV (I think!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 In earlier days (in green), the boat trains sometimes went up to 14-car, with two MLVs attached to a 4 CEP + 4 BEP + 4 CEP formation. I remember seeing them and counting them going through Petts Wood when I was young (in the early to mid 1960s). Note that this was before the introduction of the TLVs that released some of the MLVs from these doubled up formations. As eastwestdivide said, it wasn't all that common for the MLVs to haul unpowered stock, but it did happen, more so in their later lives. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phatbob Posted November 27, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2013 MLVs would sometimes be piloted buy an ED between Redhill and Tonbridge back in the day. The MLVs worked as far as Redhill under their own power and were then piloted over the line to Tonbridge which was not electrified in those days. I don't recall seeing them working in multiple anywhere else though, but that proves nothing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 MLVs would sometimes be piloted buy an ED between Redhill and Tonbridge back in the day. The MLVs worked as far as Redhill under their own power and were then piloted over the line to Tonbridge which was not electrified in those days. I don't recall seeing them working in multiple anywhere else though, but that proves nothing. There are also stories of them doing that bit unaided, running on battery power, which was pretty much at the extreme limits of their operational capability. Often they would hold back a bit from their alloted departure slot to make sure they had a 'clean green' run all the way, coasting and/or cutting power on the downhill stretches to save battery. Apparently on a few occasions, they didn't quite make it and caused chaos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Just a thought - if you cut-and-shut one cab off your MLV, you'd have a "passable" Gatwick Express luggage van, suitable for top and tailing with a 73 and some Mk2 coaches. Technically, would 73+Gatwick Express coaches+class 419 MLV be possible? Same control systems surely? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 The Gatwick luggage van is a different beast altogether. Nice write up (and source of a model) http://www.britanniapacific.co.uk/GLV.htm Converted from 2-HAP motor coaches in the mid 1980s to provide push / pull driving trailers to the Gatwick Express trains on the Southern Region. These vehicles were marshalled into sets with Mk2 coaches and a Class 73 providing power. The units retained third rail pick ups and underframe equipment and were provided with skirts (in attempt to match the Mk2 coaches). They remained in this use until the mid 2000’s and then disposed off. Four units were converted for use as De-icer vehicles for Network Rail on the Southern Region. In 2011 these De-icers were refreshed with new front end light clusters and with the luggage doors removed and the addition of roller shutter doors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Just a thought - if you cut-and-shut one cab off your MLV, you'd have a "passable" Gatwick Express luggage van, suitable for top and tailing with a 73 and some Mk2 coaches. Technically, would 73+Gatwick Express coaches+class 419 MLV be possible? Same control systems surely? Technically it would have been quite feasible. In practise, the MLVs were still much in demand at the time the Gatwick Express operation was being implemented and could not be released for Gatwick Express duties, hence the decision to use converted HAP DM coaches for the GLVs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapford34102 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 what would the MLV have been seen hauling? Don't forget the TLV's, an excuse to hang a converted BG on the back. A bit about them here http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class419_01.html Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 Surely a 12CEP/BEP+2 MLVs would exceed the power the substation could supply? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted November 28, 2013 Share Posted November 28, 2013 That was right at the traction current limit, and was another reason to introduce the TLVs. It did result in those trains having quite a reserve of power for some lively running, having the equivalent power for 16 coaches but only having the weight of 14! I was not mistaken though, as such formations were documented at the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 Click the link.......... Southern Built Motor Luggage Vans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 29, 2013 Surely a 12CEP/BEP+2 MLVs would exceed the power the substation could supply? Total traction current index would be 16, which was the limit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Just found this excellent photo of a 1988 working, 2xMLV (jaffa cake livery) with 3 blue GUV vans in tow. The caption says Tonbridge-Gillingham, so the MLVs must have run round at Strood. http://www.flickr.com/photos/16313630@N07/5557067522/in/set-72157626342074608 Worth a glance through the rest of his photos of SR EMUs and DEMUs too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Photos by Andy Armitage. See link............http://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2007a02/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 MLV.............Jaffa.......built from Lego. http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelgale/8363647900/in/photostream/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 MLV.............Jaffa.......built from Lego. http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelgale/8363647900/in/photostream/ Love it. Not sure Bachmann should be too worried though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 MLV.............Jaffa.......built from Lego. http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelgale/8363647900/in/photostream/ Virtually built from Lego - it's a Povray rendering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class419_01.html The amount of luggage and registered traffic on some boat trains was sufficient to require the use of two MLVs and a 2x MLV+12 Cep (or Cep+Bep+Cep) formation with a conductor rail index of 16 which was near the limit of the power supply and also had an excessive power to weight ratio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Another document from the archive It's a Southern Region Circular (No.23 dated 31st May 1962) regarding the operation of E6001 - E6006. The first Electro-Diesels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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