Eurostar Up For Sale

[Michael Woolford]

This morning it was announced that the government will be selling their 40% stake in Eurostar, continuing their plans to privatise around £20billion of financial and corporate assets. As we all know, Royal Mail has just been sold and the selling of Eurostar is all part of the same plan.

 

The new National Infrastructure Plan (NIP) sets out around £375billion to be spent on infrastructure including a redevelopment of Gatwick Station and a northern extension to Battersea.

 

Michael

[uax6]

Here was I thinking that we didn't have any more family silver to flog!

 

Why does everything have to be in private hands?

 

Andy g

[hornbyandbf3fan]

So, how cheaply are we flogging this one for?

[Pete 75C]

So, how cheaply are we flogging this one for?

 

I don't know, I couldn't see it on ebay or Gumtree, but I doubt I could stretch to it. What with Christmas coming and the van needing new tyres and a cambelt soon...

[Ron Ron Ron]

It seems from what has been said so far, what is being sold off here is a shareholding in what is now a stand alone TOC, Eurostar International Ltd.

Eurostar itself is not being sold.

 

Since 2010 Eurostar has been a freestanding " private company", with its shares held by two state owned railway companies (SNCB & SNCB) and the UK's government owned London & Continental Railways Ltd.

 

However, it's not clear if what is being proposed is a either a sell off of LCR itself, or a sell off of LCR's 40% stake in Eurostar? It sounds like it's the latter.

 

If it's LCR's stake in Eurostar that's being sold off, then no assets will be sold off as they no longer belong to the UK government, but belong to Eurostar International. The government will just be selling their shares in that private company.

 

If it's LCR itself that they propose to sell, that's an entirely different matter, as that company is also the nominal infrastructure owner for HS1 (a completely separate enterprise from Eurostar), although HS1 is out of their hands until 2040.

As we know, ownership and operation of HS1 has been sold to the Canadian consortium (on a 30 year concession), leaving LCR as just a holding company and a property development company (Kings Cross Central & Stratford City).

 

 

.

[uax6]

Snip at £10 millon. Profits on the up year on year too.

 

Shall we have a whip round?

 

Andy g

[two tone green]

The stock looks like the Hornby version. Needs upgrading.

[Ron Ron Ron]

The stock looks like the Hornby version. Needs upgrading.

A major overhaul and refurbishment programme is already in progress for the current fleet of Class 373 trains. The first train set to come out of that programme is due to be revealed sometime in early 2014.

Deliveries of the all-new fleet of Siemens Class 374's will start later in 2014.

 

 

 

.

[two tone green]

That may well be worth a ride on

[ForestPines]

I assume from the picture that the 374 will essentially be the DB Class 407 with different furnishings. I wonder which will be operating regularly out of St Pancras first!

[TomJ]

I was just suprised to hear on the news that we already owned some kind of stake in Eurostar! I thought that the whole channel tunnel set up was privately enterprise.

So at present East Coast isn't our only nationalised train company. Can we repaint the Eurostars in BR blue and grey then, like the HSTs? I think it would suit them well

[plarailfan]

Snip at £10 millon. Profits on the up year on year too.

 

Shall we have a whip round?

 

Andy g

Hope I win Friday's Euromillions then, lol ! Would I be allowed to run a couple of Eurostar services from, say Leeds, or Manchester, to the continent, as was first mooted back in the early 1990's ?

[Ron Ron Ron]

I was just suprised to hear on the news that we already owned some kind of stake in Eurostar! I thought that the whole channel tunnel set up was privately enterprise.

 

Tom, the Channel Tunnel has nothing at all to do with Eurostar, other than Eurostar pay to use the tunnel to cross the channel.

They are completely different things.

Eurostar is just a passenger TOC who operate a train service.

 

So at present East Coast isn't our only nationalised train company. Can we repaint the Eurostars in BR blue and grey then, like the HSTs? I think it would suit them well.

Eurostar isn't a "nationalised" company. It's a private company that has three shareholders, one of who is London and Continental Railways (LCR) who hold 40% of the stock.

LCR are 100% owned by the UK government.

 

The other two shareholders are SNCF (55%) and SNCB (5%), who are both state owned railway companies.

As such, by default Eurostar is a publicly owned private company....and no, that is not contradictory.

 

As you can see, the major shareholder is SNCF, who are 100% owned by the French government.

 

As for painting the trains; the Class 373's will start appearing in blue, grey and white next year, but in the new Eurostar livery and not the old BR scheme.

 

Regarding East Coast Trains; they are not the only UK government owned rail operator. There's DRS, the freight and passenger charter company, 100% publicly owned.

 

 

 

.

[Xerces Fobe2]

So which country will own it  I would go for France or Germany however maybe a company like Emirates might be tempted? It is almost certain that the French will make cause issues as usual, unless they get full control!

 

XF

[woodenhead]

I suspect DB will make a strong case for investing as it will guarantee them capacity on HS1

[JohnR]

I think there is a clause in the Eurostar agreement which gives the French first dibs.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I suspect DB will make a strong case for investing as it will guarantee them capacity on HS1

 

I also suspect that DB may be interested, but the only way it will guarantee them capacity on HS1 is by the fact that they'd have a share in the existing Eurostar operation (and any expanded Eurostar service).

 

It won't have any bearing on their own proposed cross channel services into the UK, as that has nothing to do with Eurostar (....plus this proposed sell off has nothing to do with HS1 or the Channel Tunnel, which are both completely separate things to Eurostar, as well as each other).

 

In fact, who knows, having a share in Eurostar might put them in difficulties with the EU competition commission if they wanted to run their own DB services, if they already had an interest in Eurostar's competing services?

 

 

.

[lmsforever]

Might China be in the market as they seem to want to buy up this old European country so as to move more of their tourists around Europe.

[The Stationmaster]

I also suspect that DB may be interested, but the only way it will guarantee them capacity on HS1 is by the fact that they'd have a share in the existing Eurostar operation (and any expanded Eurostar service).

 

It won't have any bearing on their own proposed cross channel services into the UK, as that has nothing to do with Eurostar (....plus this proposed sell off has nothing to do with HS1 or the Channel Tunnel, which are both completely separate things to Eurostar, as well as each other).

 

In fact, who knows, having a share in Eurostar might put them in difficulties with the EU competition commission if they wanted to run their own DB services, if they already had an interest in Eurostar's competing services?

 

 

.

As far as I know (and it might have changed) CTRL/HS1) is subject to the standard European rules on open access and therefore in some respects it doesn't matter who owns it as infrastructure because any compliant operator can apply for access and negotiate an access contract.  The situation in the Channel Tunnel has been slightly different as originally there was no question of open access (which it pre-dated of course) and the access contract was with 'the national railways' but that has of course subsequently changed.

 

As far as HS1 itself isa concerned there should therefore be no need for anyone to buy shares in order to gain access.  The situation involving St Pancras station must however be slightly different as any new operator in from HS1 will need to obtain various station facilities and accommodation thus an ownership share could be advantageous especially as space is severely iimited (along with international platform capacity).

[Ron Ron Ron]

As far as HS1 itself isa concerned there should therefore be no need for anyone to buy shares in order to gain access.  The situation involving St Pancras station must however be slightly different as any new operator in from HS1 will need to obtain various station facilities and accommodation thus an ownership share could be advantageous especially as space is severely iimited (along with international platform capacity).

 

Mike, there has been a lot of muddled reporting coming out over this story and those politicians who have issued soundbites don't seem too clear either.

As usual it's disappointing to see complete Tosh and incorrect information being written and spoken in the media.

 

AFAIK, what has not been categorically stated is what are the government proposing to sell ?

 

Is it London & Continental Railways (LCR) or just LCR's 40% stake in Eurostar?

If it's the latter then it has nothing to do with HS1.

If it's LCR that's a different matter.

Then again, are they proposing to sell off LCR's 40% of Eurostar and then LCR itself as separate lots ?

 

Just buying the 40% stake in Eurostar on its own will not buy any part of HS1, which although nominally wholly owned by LCR, has been leased out to the Canadian consortium for 30 years (that's up to 2040).

 

 

.

[96701]

If it's LCR itself that they propose to sell, that's an entirely different matter, as that company is also the nominal infrastructure owner for HS1 (a completely separate enterprise from Eurostar).

As we know, ownership and operation of HS1 has been leased out for 30 years to the Canadian consortium, leaving LCR as just a holding company and a property development company (Kings Cross Central & Stratford City).

.

So who owns St Pancras now? I was involved in negotiations with LCR for the maintenance of St Pancras when they took it over. 

[Mallard60022]

I think the Chinese will buy invest in Eurostar and the St Pancras Hotel.

P 

[Ron Ron Ron]

So who owns St Pancras now? I was involved in negotiations with LCR for the maintenance of St Pancras when they took it over.

St. Pancras International and the other HS1 stations are part of HS1.

 

HS1 belongs to HS1 Ltd, who until 2010 were a wholly owned subsidiary of LCR.

 

LCR sold HS1 Ltd, along with the 30 year concession to operate HS1, to the Canadian consortium in 2010.

 

HS1 (the railway line and stations etc) are now owned and operated by the Canadian consortium.

The actual operation is carried out by contractors on behalf of the consortium. In the case of St. Pancras International, Network Rail has the contract.

 

If nothing changes from the current position, then in 2040 HS1 Ltd (as a Canadian owned company) would continue, but its ownership and concession to operate HS1 will cease.

In practical terms, at that time (if not before), HS1 would have to be either placed into new hands (which could be the present owners), or sold.

 

 

As far as LCR is concerned, they are now largely a property development company involved with the developments at King's Cross, Stratford City and land taken over from the BRB Residuary body when that organisation was wound up in 2013.

LCR also hold that 40% shareholding in Eurostar International, who are a free-standing independent company.

 

Does that help?

 

Ron

 

 

.

 

 

.

[Mallard60022]

Ah, maybe the Chinese will invest in Hornby instead?

P

[phil-b259]

I was just suprised to hear on the news that we already owned some kind of stake in Eurostar! I thought that the whole channel tunnel set up was privately enterprise.

So at present East Coast isn't our only nationalised train company. Can we repaint the Eurostars in BR blue and grey then, like the HSTs? I think it would suit them well

 

As origionaly constituted the Eurostar opperation was set up as a marketing partnership between the three state owned railway administrations involved. Under this arangement the ownership of the trains was split with xx sets owned by SNCF, xx owned by SNCB and Xx, owned by British Rail. Drivers and other on train staff were simlarly directly employed by the relevent railway organisations ,so as far as SNCF were concerned there was no difference between a driver working a Eurostar, Talys or domestic TGV nord service - all had exactly the same conditions of service and were paid from the central SNCF payroll and drove SNCF trains. Basically Eurostar itself didn't own anything of signifficance.

 

The big problem with this was that the structure wasn't suited to the UK Governments decision to privitise British Rail or the many confusing changes in ownership / financing of the CTRL project under which the British Governments stake (inherited from British Rail) in the Eurostar opperation became very muddled while the Eurostar organisation itself remained unchanged from when it was set up.

 

A few years ago however there was a concerted effort to simplfy things and SNCFs (and SNCBs) stakes has now been changed to simply that of a shreholder with all crew and trains finally becoming sole empolyies / propety of Eurostar with wages etc paid by them (not SNCF). Eurostar is now therefore a completely stand alone company and can make its own decisions - hence all the French protests when they ordered new strock from Siemens (i.e. the Germans)