ThePurplePrimer Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If a Heritage / Preservation line wanted to run electric units ( I am thinking something like a 2-Bil for example ) what would they need to do about feeding power to the 3rd rail. I am no expert but I think it's unlikely that it gets plugged into a 13 amp socket - at least not in the same one as the kettle :-) If this was a possibility for the line what would I need to model on my 00 Gauge version to represent it ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If a Heritage / Preservation line wanted to run electric units ( I am thinking something like a 2-Bil for example ) what would they need to do about feeding power to the 3rd rail. I am no expert but I think it's unlikely that it gets plugged into a 13 amp socket - at least not in the same one as the kettle :-) If this was a possibility for the line what would I need to model on my 00 Gauge version to represent it ? Boringly practical, I'm afraid, but they'd have to establish a good enough case to get the necessary approvals; the official view on any 'new' 3rd rail provision is, as far as I'm aware, that it might be permissable as a continuation of, or fill-in between pre-existing 3rd rail lines. Anything beyond that, and especially anything involving what are essentially amateurs, would be a non-starter. The East Kent has got around this by using battery power, I believe:- http://www.eastkentrailway.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks Brian x 2 Firstly the battery 'excuse' might work nicely for my needs Secondly - didnt know about EKR but do now thanks to you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Thanks Brian x 2 Firstly the battery 'excuse' might work nicely for my needs Secondly - didnt know about EKR but do now thanks to you No problem. To my shame, I've yet to visit the EKR, despite being only about ten miles from it as the crow flies. A friend is part-owner of one of the units. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Boringly practical, I'm afraid, but they'd have to establish a good enough case to get the necessary approvals; the official view on any 'new' 3rd rail provision is, as far as I'm aware, that it might be permissable as a continuation of, or fill-in between pre-existing 3rd rail lines. Anything beyond that, and especially anything involving what are essentially amateurs, would be a non-starter. The East Kent has got around this by using battery power, I believe:- http://www.eastkentrailway.co.uk/ As far as I am aware this official view is just national policy that covers Network Rail. A private or preseved line is not bound by this, and there is no law preventing third rail laying by a preserved line, other than satisfying the relevent Health and Safety requirements etc. as required. The biggest hindrance to a preserved line would be the expense - building a substation and getting a suitable connection to the national grid would cost a serious amount of £££££ even if suitable redundant components could be salvaged to do it. It is much more likely that this is the reason that the East Kent use battery power. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 I have no idea if this is possible ? In my imaginary heritage line ( that I intend to model ) could I run a bit of 3rd rail so people could see what it would have looked like ( maybe a hundred yards or so ? ) but actually run my stock from a battery on the stock itself Believable ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Or you could have 3rd rail EMUs hauled by a loco, if you wanted to have some EMUs on the layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Rule One ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pendlerail Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Agreed rule on applies, the east lancs railway did run two 504 Bury - Manchester sets with a class 25 in between using Multiple working cables, not sure if would be possible on SR units without a 33/1 or 73? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Or you could have 3rd rail EMUs hauled by a loco, if you wanted to have some EMUs on the layout Or a loco or generator car being towed to provide the electricity. or if you are modelling the future, i.e tomorrow, maybe one of the cars of the EMU has been converted to include a generator. which could explain the motor section in the model? Just a thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pendlerail Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Or a loco or generator car being towed to provide the electricity. or if you are modelling the future, i.e tomorrow, maybe one of the cars of the EMU has been converted to include a generator. which could explain the motor section in the model? Just a thought. Wasn't there plans to use a 419 MLV? as a traction unit for emus filling it with batteries? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Hi I am sure someone will know, but as usual I am just making it up as I go along. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 Or a loco or generator car being towed to provide the electricity. or if you are modelling the future, i.e tomorrow, maybe one of the cars of the EMU has been converted to include a generator. which could explain the motor section in the model? Just a thought. Thanks - but now I need to go and google what a generator car is :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pendlerail Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Basically a coach with a diesel powered generator in to provide a power supply usually a BG or other parcels vehicle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share Posted January 9, 2014 A sub-station looks like this: slide362.jpg Bopeep Junction, 06.04.1983. As to safety, it is down to the approval of a robust safety case by the relevant authorities. After all, live steam is inherently very dangerous, just as moving railway vehicles are. Both can kill or seriously injure. Ummm I do hope that is not a set of catch points ( get me, like I know what I am talking about ) - I don't fancy that 'escape route' much ! PS - Always remember .. I DONT know what I am talking about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Like this, but what ever colour you want: http://www.departmentals.com/photo/6264 No reason it could not supply 750Vdc or even 25KV or another as required. Edit..... Safety and electrical regulations allowing of course Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Ummm I do hope that is not a set of catch points ( get me, like I know what I am talking about ) - I don't facing that 'escape route' much ! PS - Always remember .. I DONT know what I am talking about From catch point to flash point in a very short journey by the look of things, judging by the proximity of that sub-station Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 From catch point to flash point in a very short journey by the look of things, judging by the proximity of that sub-station Yes but surely the chain link fence would stop it! After all there quite springy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Now I have no idea how practical this would be, but in principle it might just work..... Diesel locomotive traction motors run at a similar voltage to DC EMU's. If you could park a diesel locomotive on a siding out of the way, alter the generator field control and governors to provide a steady 750VDC, conect the positive to the Third rail and negative to the track.... Said Diesel locomotive would probably have to be dedicated to the task and rendered useless for anything else - bit like a larger version of an ETHEL. Might be something useful to do with one of the surplus class 50's, should be able to provide enough juice for a couple of units at least - as long as one is not a REP! But you really would want it to be on a siding as far away as possible because its going to be noisy! And probably a bit thirsty on the diesel too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForestPines Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 In general nowadays most heritage lines in the UK do keep passengers well away from running lines - certainly compared to some preservation sites I've been to elsewhere in Europe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 9, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2014 ISTR that an EM2 was run within the confines of a tram preservation site at Bradford or Leeds. Admittedly at lower that the 1500VDC required for full power, but nonetheless, it ran. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 There are several preserved/reconstructed tramways that have 750V overhead so the necessary supply equipment isn't impossible for such an organisation - and a supply that can run several trams on a gradient as at Crich shouldn't have any problem running one train at slow speed on fairly level track. As stated the third rail itself would be more problematic because of the safety risk. To minimise this risk and avoid a lot of other restrictions it might be a case of banning staff from the track entirely while the rail is live. Is Volks a precedent here? On the other hand 25kV OLE I think would be less of a problem, but the necessary feeder station is a pretty serious and costly bit of kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 ISTR that an EM2 was run within the confines of a tram preservation site at Bradford or Leeds. Admittedly at lower that the 1500VDC required for full power, but nonetheless, it ran. Cheers, Mick This would have been at the ill-fated Low Moor site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 If it were a Southern-based line, the Motor-Luggage Vans (as modelled by Bachmann) might be of use.. After all, the idea behind them was that they could manouevre trains away from the third-rail at Dover and Folkestone harbours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Volk's certainly seems to have carried out a full risk assessment, judging by the vast numbers of warning signs everywhere. Including weird stuff like folding your pushchairs before entering the platform. I suspect a lot of this may be down to Volk's being operated by the council and so subject to the bizarre over interpretation of H&S laws that local authorities seem to love doing. Surely the best bet for a 750v DC third rail preservation scheme would be to electrify to current Network Rail standards, and then make a bit of cash by offerering training and testing facilities to the main line railways during the week? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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