Michael Delamar Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 This is something I have often thought about but not yet tried, regauging to EM on steam locos using existing wheels but with new axles, Ive done it with one or 2 in the past by keeping the same axles but I dont like the idea of the wheel being held on a fraction of the axle. I now have access to a lathe so can turn flanges down if need be, although I am a novice with the lathe. There are a few things I would like about it. Cost- no need for new wheels. Not having to modify rods and crankpins. I like keeping the same coated RTR tyre, Im not a big fan of steel tyres on replacement wheels. Id just like some discussion from those who have done this please. cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted January 24, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2014 I've got a lathe,and do make axles for my larger scale stuff, but I'm lazy and for my 4mm stuff tend to buy in axles from the EM Gauge Society Stores. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I dont mind buying in axles if they are available, Lathe would be for turning down flanges if necessary. Im sure this is what some 2mm finescale modellers do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 New axles are feasible and also I have extended 00 axles by cutting through and sleeving with brass tube. Problems can arise when the axles are splined. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozthedog Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 New axles are feasible and also I have extended 00 axles by cutting through and sleeving with brass tube. Problems can arise when the axles are splined. I am about to embark on building an EM gauge layout for the first time and have a fair amount of 00 stock. I shall replace axles and wheels for the engines. However extending axles by cutting and extending with brass tube seems a good idea for wagons. Would there be any problems with 00 wheels running through EM gauge points? Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 New axles are feasible and also I have extended 00 axles by cutting through and sleeving with brass tube. Problems can arise when the axles are splined. The one I am playing about with at the moment is a Hornby B1. it has splined axles, I wish someone would do longer replacement splined axles however for this so far all I have done is pull the wheels out using a wheel puller, the wheels still feel nice and tight and not likely to move in any direction, maybe because there is a bit of meat behind the wheel, a sort of moulded plastic bush on the back of the wheel. All that looks that needs to be done is to make some plastic spcaer bushes from some tube, cut them into a C then pop them over the axle either side , I would sooner do that than take the wheel off completely and disturb the quartering, then just the brake shoes to modify. I think this Hornby set up looks a better way of doing it than Bachmanns set up with the plastic bush on the end of the axle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 This is my Hornby B1 that I have pulled the wheels out, I looked around everywhere for some plastic tube to make the spacers, the best thing I come across was a lego piece that when cut was the exact diameter and thickness. I cut it in 2 then glued it back together when on the axle with Butanone. The front axle has hardly any sideplay as its behind the crosshead, the other 2 have a little, I filed the lego piece down a little. Its reassembled and it runs with wires attached to the motor, Ive had to chop the brake shoes off for now, wheels are all straight and true, no wobble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 with the body on all that looks that needs to be modified is the speedo drive which needs to be trimmed at the back a bit.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2014 Michael, may I suggest you speak with the chap that does the RTR conversions in conjunction with the EMGS (can't remember his name just now Phil hall is it?). He is often at the Nottingham Show as are a whole bunch of ver experienced EM modellers from the 'Retford' layout team.There is a train from your place to Nottingham! having said that your B1 looks great mate. Phil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I am about to embark on building an EM gauge layout for the first time and have a fair amount of 00 stock. I shall replace axles and wheels for the engines. However extending axles by cutting and extending with brass tube seems a good idea for wagons. Would there be any problems with 00 wheels running through EM gauge points? Keith There is usually no problem with shifting the wheels on their axle (Some are a bit reluctant but brute force overcomes this - vice or press not a hammer and protect the pin points). Most modern wheels are fine enough for EM, though I have found some Bachmann ones to be a bit tight (It could be my tracklaying but the flanges are rather on the thick side. Older wheels to HD standards or similar (pre about 2000) are probably too coarse (flanges are too thick and deep). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2014 David, you are talking steam loco's here aren't you? If so I've missed a trick as I've not dared do this 'widening on original axles' with a steam chassis (yet). P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 The problem with RTR wagon wheels such as Bachmann is because they are thick, when you pull them out they will foul the inside of the plastic axle box, so I have standardised on romford for all my wagons as supplied with Parkside kits, They are not expensive, nice tight fit and thinner tyre so when pulled out will have a little more space to move, some wagons such as the 16t mineral need some material shaving off with a scalpel. I prefer wheels that have a tight thick rather than slack and gluing it. The only way I have found to pull them out is with 2 pairs of pliers or grips, one on the axle, the other on the flange and gently pull and turn the wheel away, you dont want to damage the pinpoint of the axle. then if any plastic has creeped out clean that up with a scalpel so it doesnt rub on the inside of the axle box. With the B1 because there is no splashers its been quite easy, something like a black 5 or patriot I think would need thinner wheels. I havent decided on what to do about pony or tender wheels for the b1 yet, Romford or Gibson I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 David, you are talking steam loco's here aren't you? If so I've missed a trick as I've not dared do this 'widening on original axles' with a steam chassis (yet). P It was done with an etched chassis (Mallard 517 and K's axles). There is probably insufficient space on most R-T-R chassis - The gap required is 2mm of course and an overlap of at least 2-3mm either side is advisable. A strong adhesive is essential to prevent the result falling apart. I find that rolling stock wheels, once shifted, can be adjusted by hand by rotating the wheel on the axle until the wheels are centred at the correct back to back (which depends on the tyre thickness). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiptonian Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 For rolling stock, don't write off the humble Hornby "packs of ten" wheel sets. Wheel profile may not be to everyones taste, but tyre is narrow enough and flange is surprisingly fine, far more suitable than a Bachmann wheelset. On a Bachmann 16t mineral wagon, even if you fit Gibson EM wheels, you still have to cut away the strengtheners behind the W-irons. indeed, on stock I have altered, the only reason a re-gauged Hornby wheel will not fit where a Gibson EM will is due to the larger diameter of the Hornby wheel, not the tyre thickness. Adjust B to B to 16.5mm by wrapping wheels and axle with a rag to enable fingers to grip, and twisting each side a bit at a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Michael, I've been working on upgrading a Bachmann Jinty to EM. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79851-re-using-rtr-wheels-for-em-gauge-conversion/ I spent quite a bit of time thinning the backs of the wheels to reduce the flange thickness. I also replaced the Bachmann rods with Comet. I have some EMGS axles (3mm stepped to 2mm) but the stepped part is smooth whereas Bachmann knurl theirs. I am not confident that the wheels will retain their quartering over time and was wondering about the experience of others. I did try to pull the wheels out while using the original axle but to my eye, it does look iffy. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 If I remember right when I tried that with my Bachmann jinty it wasnt a good runner, the same with the Bachmann 03, I didnt like the axle running in a channel rather than proper bearings, however I was playing about with replacement rods on both of them which didnt help matters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Thanks for that. This is something of an exploratory project to see if the conversion can be done without having to buy expensive wheels and keeping the drive train. If all else fails I can go for Markits wheels or even a new Comet chassis. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I have converted a number of Bachmann wagons to P4 purely by inserting Alan Gibson wheels but not going to the extent of using compensated W-Irons. This works quite well but I did need to do a bit of filing in the slots where the wheels fit in the underframe moulding. The brakegear intrudes on the wheel flanges and needs to be moved or bent out of the way. I have also converted two Bachmann Cl108 dmus, one using Branchlines wheels the other Alan Gibson. If using AG wheelsets you need to add pickups but that isn't a big hassle, see http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/project_class108.html for guidance. I added some Loctite to the screw that carries the pickups and I insulated the pickups too. The Branchlines I found to be a little more problematical. I'm not saying they aren't fit for purpose but they are expensive and they are a fiddle to get the overall length of the axle and the back-to-back right; the split axle arrangement doesn't help. Eventually I gave up on attempting to achieve both these conditions and just set the b2b (P4 is very sensitive to b2b) and allowed the wheelset to slop a little in the bearings. In this form the cones act as inclined planes so adding a little compensation! In future I think I would try the solution offered by Replica Railways, but again that's expensive; so far the AG route is best. I haven't yet completed a steam engine conversion because I stopped work to do the dmus. I have found that the brakegear, which is set for OO, gets in the way of the wheel flanges. True to form I cut them off only to find that then I'd lost the reference point. After a bit of thought I worked out that if I adopted proprietary side frames (Alan Gibson or Comet) I could use these as cosmetic items (so improving the look of the model) and use the holes etched in the frames to locate wire hangars for the brakes and that is as far as I've got. For P4 I widen the Mazak part of the Bachmann chassis (not the underkeep) by gluing slabs of .080 plasticard on both sides; the plot is that I shall glue (using CA) the frames to these, but the work has stalled for the time being. Incidentally the brakegear on the Bachmann Jinty is way over scale and needs to be replaced. HTH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 regards the splined axles, I think if you are replacing them they replacements should be splined too, Im not a fan of the axle being smooth. I wish they would do a replacment splined axle. I also wish a template was available for the flange, like what they use on the real thing, to help when turning the wheels on a lathe, also need a way of holding these large wheels by the tyre when turning on a small lathe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Thanks for that. This is something of an exploratory project to see if the conversion can be done without having to buy expensive wheels and keeping the drive train. If all else fails I can go for Markits wheels or even a new Comet chassis. John you could mount the comet chassis on the Bachmann chassis in the same way that Brassmasters easychas work, that way the rods are correct, you can keep the original motor and get proper bearings, havent tried it with the jinty but did this with the Bachmann 03 with a branchlines chassis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I agree about splining replacement axles (obviously). I did manage to turn down the flanges on a set of old Romfords to the new dimension by: a) mounting the axle and wheel in my Dremel and running the flange against a file, b)frequently measuring with a digital caliper and c) the flange was tidied up with a fine file. Seems to be OK. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I could have turned the b1 wheels down easy by taking one wheel off and holding the axle in th chuck but then didnt want to disturb the quartering, not a major issue and if it was getting a replacement axle I would have to anyway, just didnt fancy it if it didnt need to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 you could mount the comet chassis on the Bachmann chassis in the same way that Brassmasters easychas work, that way the rods are correct, you can keep the original motor and get proper bearings, havent tried it with the jinty but did this with the Bachmann 03 with a branchlines chassis. I was inspired by Tim Shackleton's conversion of a Bachmann 4-6-2T in MRJ 134 and used Comet sides thus: This way the brake gear is attached to the brass sides, which are in turn attached to the keeper plate. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 although it looks a bit rough in this shot this is my Bachmann 03 with Romford/Markits and Branchlines chassis, it runs great, ran perfect all weekend at Crown Streets last 2 shows and is the main loco on the layout so runs all day. I even used the original plastic keeper plate with the original pickups, screwed back on after this shot was taken.I used the brass brake shoes in the kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Thanks Michael, I also have an 03 so your method is something I shall have to bear in mind. One issue I have with the Jinty is that I couldn't use the original pickups so I've had to do new ones, a job I really hate. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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