The Bigbee Line Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Now the change of accomodation has been completed. The boards are to be revised as a Holland Road Goods type layout. Previously: I have produced a track layout based on Falmer. There are various additions; a signal to allow movements back from the down platform and a connection to allow freight trains to leave the yard towards Brighton. Comments on the wording on the lever plates and locking would be appreciated, Thanks in advance. 1 UP DISTANT 2. 3. 4. 2 UP HOME 3 UP STARTING 4 UP ADVANCED STARTING 5 UP STARTING BACK FROM DOWN PLATFORM 17. 6 KING LEVER 1. 17. 21. 7 FROM DOWN LINE SHUNT AT POINTS 8 8. OR NIL 8 CROSSOVER POINTS EAST 9 FROM UP LINE SHUNT OVER POINTS 8 8. 10 FROM DOWN LINE SHUNT AT POINTS 17 17. 11. OR NIL 11 DOWN SIDINGS POINTS 12 FROM DOWN SIDING SHUNT OVER POINTS 11 11. 13 FROM DOWN SIDING SHUNT OVER POINTS 14 14. 14 DOWN SIDINGS TO UP LINE POINTS 15 FROM UP LINE SHUNT AT POINTS 14 14. OR NIL 16 FPL ON 17 17 CROSSOVER POINTS WEST 18 FROM UP LINE SHUNT AT POINTS 17 17. OR NIL 19 DOWN ADVANCED STARTING 20 DOWN STARTING 21 DOWN HOME 22 DOWN DISTANT 19. 20. 21. Edited to sort out format of list Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Why when I post are all my images etc shown in a small format. Everybody else seems to post images that are the full page width? Any assistance is appreciated, thanks, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Why when I post are all my images etc shown in a small format... It's a nasty side effect of linking to an image in a gallery. Much better to include the image directly in your post. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 I'm sound It's a nasty side effect of linking to an image in a gallery. Much better to include the image directly in your post.Nick I'm sounding really stupid here.... How do I put the image straight into the post? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I'm sounding really stupid here.... How do I put the image straight into the post? Click on the "more reply options" below right of the reply box. That gets you to a more extensive editor. At bottom left is a "Choose files..." button (below "Attach Files"). That allows you to browse your machine and select one or more files. Then you can use "Add to Post" to insert an image at the current cursor position (otherwise they appear at the end). Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Horray, thanks very much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Would 5 not be released by 16, which itself would be released by 17? I am assuming that 16 is a 'one hole' FPL, which only locks the stretcher with 17R. That way, the FPL is proven for a passenger move over 17 before 5 can be pulled. Edit: Typo + the locking table only shows the releases, not the locks; i.e. 11 locks 17 to prevent a conflicting move. Therefore 17 locks 11. Also 11 may lock 14 and vice versa; depending on how close they are phyiscally together. PS. Where is Stationmaster Mike when you need him most??! Good point about the FPL, as it is only needed when points 17 are reversed. I'm not sure if the FPL can only lock points 17 when reversed, ie the points are normally not secured by the FPL. If that's the case 16 lever being reversed would free Signal 5. I will post some pictures of the real Falmer lever frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Images of the real Falmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I used to know the real Falmer in the early 1970s when it still had mechanical signalling and for a year travelled between Brighton and there every day. I've always wondered though how, with the signalling in the main station building rather than a separate signal box, how the staffing worked. Were/are there dedicated signallers with completely separate station staff or were the roles combined? In continental Europe it's generally been the norm, at least at smaller stations, for signalling to be part of the stationmaster's responsibility. The same person might therefore open and close the signals, operate the block instruments, give trains the right away and sell tickets. Did this ever happen in Great Britain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 More pictures of the real Falmer: Signal 3, the Up Home Signal 4, the Up Advanced Starter, there used to be an Up Warning (No.5) underneath. The Down Home, on a bracket as it was cantilevered over No.1 Down Siding. The Down Advanced Starter, located at the tunnel mouth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Looking on the internet yesterday I came across a set of 1962 images by Ian D Nolan of Falmer. For me these are gold dust. With the permission of Ian I attach some of his superb pictures. His Flickr site is http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share Posted February 7, 2014 Track laying has commenced. I'm using the two 4' x 1' boards that were going to be my next Ludgate..... At the weekend the track was lifted and on Wednesday tracklaying commenced. I used the Roco track spacing and test laid the main lines and connection to the yard. The pictures of Falmer in 1962 from Flickr prompted a reconfiguration of the main yard connection. The alignment of siding number 1 swings away from the mainline to a loading dock behind the platform. Using a couple of Roco radius 20 curves I experimented and swung the turnout on the siding by just under 5 degrees. Giving a nice gentle curve. I also closed up the track centres on the main line from 62mm to 50mm. To do this with a crossover I trimmed 20mm from the rails on each turnout. The diamond crossing on the other board required 40m to be removed the crossing, the turnout cannot be trimmed as the angles would get messed up. 62mm centres 50mm centres, better Peco track pins are used at this stage as the track is likely to get shifted about before the final layout is confirmed. I will swap the two crossovers to follow the real Falmer: Picture from Ian D Nolan Attempt 1.5. The crossover and main lines closed from 62mm to 50mm centres. The turnout in the yard has been 'swung over'. Tomorrow I will swap over the two crossovers. Birds eye view: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 7, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2014 Would 5 not be released by 16, which itself would be released by 17? I am assuming that 16 is a 'one hole' FPL, which only locks the stretcher with 17R. That way, the FPL is proven for a passenger move over 17 before 5 can be pulled. Edit: Typo + the locking table only shows the releases, not the locks; i.e. 11 locks 17 to prevent a conflicting move. Therefore 17 locks 11. Also 11 may lock 14 and vice versa; depending on how close they are phyiscally together. PS. Where is Stationmaster Mike when you need him most??! Should be released by 16 and 17. The reason being that if part of the locking is disarranged for any reason you are not just relying on the FPL but also always require the point lever to be reversed. Concentrating locking through FPL levers seems to have been a practice in the 1920s and there is evidence that the GWR did it so possibly the Southern and/or constituents also did things that way. On the Western frames were relocked expressly to get rid of such releases according to what I was told many years ago by John Madeley (whose practical knowledge of GWR locking was unequalled). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Looking at a few locking charts, just releasing through a "one-hole" fpl (obviously bolt in) lever does seem to have been Wimbledon (SR S&T) practice going back to LSWR days. However, "two-hole" fpls seem to be more common than I might have expected and these obviously do need to be released by both the point (normal or reverse, as appropriate for the route) and fpl (bolt in). On the charts I have, there is no obvious sign of the locking having been changed later (up to mid-1960s) as on the WR, but it may well be that the points in contention already had "two-hole" fpls (which wouldn't necessarily need to be bolted both ways for every move, but just the presence of two holes would prevent the use of the fpl alone to provide a release). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2014 In continental Europe it's generally been the norm, at least at smaller stations, for signalling to be part of the stationmaster's responsibility. The same person might therefore open and close the signals, operate the block instruments, give trains the right away and sell tickets. Did this ever happen in Great Britain? Yes. My local station in the 50s/60s, Betchworth, had a porter-signalman (that was the term for the grade) who also sold tickets - and went out to hand-operate the quite busy level crossing gates, dodging the increasing traffic (a B road) to do so. He would also be involved with train despatch, parcels, maybe mailbags - he was the only Joe there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Yes. My local station in the 50s/60s, Betchworth, had a porter-signalman (that was the term for the grade) who also sold tickets - and went out to hand-operate the quite busy level crossing gates, dodging the increasing traffic (a B road) to do so. He would also be involved with train despatch, parcels, maybe mailbags - he was the only Joe there! Was that a block post or were the signals purely associated with protecting the LC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2014 Was that a block post or were the signals purely associated with protecting the LC? No, a full block-post. Reigate one side and distant Gomshall the other, I think, in later years after Dorking Town closed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Images of the real Falmer s Falmer 10082003 lever frame 01.JPG s Falmer 10082003 lever frame 02.JPG s Falmer 10082003 lever frame 03.JPG These levers appear to be shorter than the ones I am used to seeing. Is it an illusion because the "quadrant plates" are just higher than normal but the length is actually the same as normal or is it that the levers were shorter and if so did they put extra strain on the signaman's back? Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 These levers appear to be shorter than the ones I am used to seeing. Is it an illusion because the "quadrant plates" are just higher than normal but the length is actually the same as normal or is it that the levers were shorter and if so did they put extra strain on the signaman's back? Cheers Godders It's a Southern Railway booking office extension design which opened on 1930 fitted with a 22 lever frame, replacing a 15 lever 1877 frame in the signal box. A replacement 22 lever Stevens Knee frame was installed in 1951. The signal box was closed on 1985. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 8, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2014 When was the policy changed Mike, so that signals were released off the FPL and point? I think it would have been about the end of the 1920s Paul - possibly a bit earlier but obviously any alterations could have taken a long time. On the GWR it seems that it definitely wasn't a universal method prior to then so it could possibly have been an economy measure although that is more supposition rather than evidence based. Some things like that simply don't seem to be openly recorded or the records have been lost - for example the Company made some major installations of economic (Prince's pattern) FPLs shortly before the Great War but obviously went off that principle at some time with the 'boxes concerned later having separate FPL levers (and much larger frames as a result). All sorts of things changed on locking principles over the years beyond the fairly static basic principles (i.e what is in the IRSE booklets - although some of that did evolve). Regrettably unlike the Southern (Railway) the GWR never seems to have published any sort of signalling or locking principles booklet although I am aware that things were issued or amended through Drawing Office Instructions which definitely existed post-war and presumably were around earlier. This would seem to fit with the way changes appear in the Minute Books as the S&T Dept always seemed to be pretty quick (in railway terms) to be able to respond regarding proposed changes or to implement them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 The pointwork has now been changed about: This is the version 2 (track centres closed up to 50mm). Now at version 3, movement from the Down Platform is now through the connection to the right for the yard, passenger trains starting back towards Brighton will pass over two turnouts as facing moves, necessitating two facing point locks. The siding length towards the loading dock seems to be more in proportion. A couple of views of the two boards, the second image showing how the sidings will be arranged; Just need to find the left hand turnout to complete the track laying. Next will be to rough out the end boards. I'm thinking of platforms at one end on approx. 2'6" radius (not sure what that will look like, has anyone any examples?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyddrail Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Ernie, Layout ideal looks good. Those pictures you have found really show the prototype well. I assume the raised cable is the 33kv feeder cable, that will be a nice feature. You have been quick to lay the track which looks good too. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 I've revised the signalling diagram. Removing the crossover and associated ground signals from the East end of the station, reducing the number of stop (home and starting signals), adding the intermediate signals on the Down Line at Ashcombe and adding the Up Warning Signal. The signal numbering needs some shuffling about. I've also shown the siding at the end of No1 siding that served the Brighton Corporation Pumping Station. The reason for higher than normal coal traffic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Ernie, Layout ideal looks good. Those pictures you have found really show the prototype well. I assume the raised cable is the 33kv feeder cable, that will be a nice feature. You have been quick to lay the track which looks good too. Cheers. Paul, The 33kv cable is a real plus for me, one of the things I remember from my youth. Are there drawings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Track laying (really advanced planning and dry running) continues. Not being able to find things after the house move can be frustrating. Somewhere I have a couple of Roco turnouts. After a few searches I opted to lift one from another board (must put a temporary bus service into operation). That done the connection from the sidings to the up line was completed and a connection from No1 to No2 siding laid in, plus No2 siding itself. Before (yesterday) After (today) No2 siding holds a reasonable number of wagons View from the other board Need to find some Peco code 75 for the sidings. Also need to find the wire to lay the main bus wiring on the underside of the boards and decide how to link the beards electrically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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