Washout at Dawlish

[Gruffalo]

I really don't see that as an issue.

 

Up here we have a big fight going on for new houses - on a flood plain.  The local council rejected the application unanimously, so the developer (with more money) hired a hotshot lawyer which basically out-argued common sense from the locals who knew that it was a problem - and that measures in the new development to "divert away" rainwater would cause bigger problems with already flood-prone areas nearby.

 

We are too sentimental about not building on certain areas when there is an essential need.  When you consider the amount of massive, unnecessary "out of town developments" that get passed thanks to a few brown envelopes under the table, I hardly think a strip of land taken for a railway line, which has proven econonical benefits, across mostly open fields even comes close.

 

As I see it, there are 3 alternatives.

 

1) Build a new, inland, alternative.

 

2) Keep throwing money at the sea wall only for it to be closed regularly due to the weather and the risk of serious damage in the future.

 

3) Cut off everything west of Exeter by rail from the rest of the UK.

 

Out of those three options I'd say 1 is by far the most sensible.

Actually, there is a rumour that Kernow County Council and Alex Salmond are getting together to promote Option 3   

 

All joking aside, the matter of funding illustrates the crazy situation of Network rail. They have to repair the Cambrian Coast and now Dawlish whilst our politicos all argue about whether it will cost £40Bn, £50Bn or £60Bn for HS2. In the meantime local residents, train and NR staff are at risk and all deserve something better. A "new" route avoiding the sea wall would take a couple of years to get approved and started, South Devon  & Cornwall cannot be without a rail service for that length of time. Should we wind up The Environment Agency and reinstate local accountable bodies so Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall would be better served?

[Rods_of_Revolution]

I think that will take at least 2 or 3 months to repair. It's not just the railway, it's the structures around it which will also need stabilizing at the very least before the repairs to the railway even begin. Not to mention there will probably be a big debate as to how they will repair the damage. Will they get the railway open ASAP in manner that means it's likely to fail again this year or next, or will they do the job properly to ensure that section, at least, will last for a couple of decades? Not to mention many companies both rail and otherwise will have to work together on this, the more people involved the longer the affair is drawn out.

 

If it was done properly I'd imagine a steel reinforced concrete slab for the trackbed, with steel reinforced concrete piles extending down to a good depth. With this setup, even with a complete washout of the surrounding ground, the track would remain in situ and easy to quickly backfill to get it operational again.

 

What a nightmare scenario!

 

Best Regards,

 

Jack

[Kenton]

 

Should we wind up The Environment Agency and reinstate local accountable bodies so Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall would be better served?

I'm all for that. Local control and locally funded, They can then use some form of tolls to charge "outsiders" for passage over their county .... oh that's what you get with independence.

 

The fact is there is an election not too far away so it will be a case of patch it up and promise everything for the future (public enquiry, Royal Commission) anything to kick the whole thing into the long grass. Given 12 months and everyone will be worrying themselves over the next "Big Issue", the line will be reinstated and next winter will be the driest on record. The folk of Dawlish will pass once again into obscurity.

[Coombe Barton]

... and another at Long Rock (Penzance) so maintaining a captive fleet for a couple of months shouldn't be impossible, but those depots may have to brush up on Sprinters, ...

But Long Rock is itself close to the sea wall and so vulnerable.

[APOLLO]

Bring back the steamers, few waves - no problem !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

An earlier poster wrote an offshore "breakwater" would help greatly. I'm not a civil / marine engineer, but this seems the way to go. Cost a lot, but so does the NHS,  EU, etc etc. The Gov can work the money printing presses on overtime at the weekend !!

 

Brit15

Edited February 5, 2014 by APOLLO

[JohnR]

 I'm all for that. Local control and locally funded, They can then use some form of tolls to charge "outsiders" for passage over their county .... oh that's what you get with independence.

 

The fact is there is an election not too far away so it will be a case of patch it up and promise everything for the future (public enquiry, Royal Commission) anything to kick the whole thing into the long grass. Given 12 months and everyone will be worrying themselves over the next "Big Issue", the line will be reinstated and next winter will be the driest on record. The folk of Dawlish will pass once again into obscurity.

Absolutely not. The advantage of the national environmet agency is that when things like this happen, resources (including money) can be re-directed from elsewhere in the country.

 

At the moment, the EA doesnt need to spend as much in Bedfordshire, say as in Somerset, but if they were devolved, the Somerset EA would have to live within its much smaller budget.

[Kenton]

 

Absolutely not. The advantage of the national environmet agency is that when things like this happen, resources (including money) can be re-directed from elsewhere in the country.

 

At the moment, the EA doesnt need to spend as much in Bedfordshire, say as in Somerset, but if they were devolved, the Somerset EA would have to live within its much smaller budget.

Who didn't read the post I quoted? Because if you had you would be agreeing with me.

 

That is why there is a national pot of money and the politician elected to distribute it (in some arbitrary fair manner. Of course we all have concern over where the money is spent and what should take priority and if it is spent wisely and not wasted on some hair-brained local scheme. The problem has always been that very few decisions are made with long term in mind. They only want the headline of the quick fix during election periods.

[Coombe Barton]

There's a geological article by Southampton University on the area here http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~imw/Dawlish-Warren.htm

 

My interpretation is that there's a lot of places along that coast which are under threat - but loads of people know that. What it does highlight is the previous action/inaction that has taken place over the past few years.

 

And from the 1824 storm http://www.southampton.ac.uk/~imw/jpg-Chesil/5CH-1824-Hurricane-map-m.jpg

Edited February 5, 2014 by Coombe Barton

[Temeraire]

Sorry everyone its all my fault!

 

Having never travelled along the seawall by train (but always wanted to) only on foot, I had arranged that myself and 3 other Rmwebbers take advantage of the SWT £10 ticket and a Devon railway £10 ticket this Saturday to make the trip down. The intention was to both travel along by train and on foot with a bag of chips, I guess we should wait until the summer now!

[Pete 75C]

Yeah, I'll be there in April. The chips are a certainty but the train journey?

[Glorious NSE]

But Long Rock is itself close to the sea wall and so vulnerable.

 

Not sure where you're going with this?

 

Long Rock is a long way from the damage at Dawlish, and should be able to help maintain stock marooned West of the breach once the storms pass... 

[Glorious NSE]

Bring back the steamers, few waves - no problem !!!!!!!!!!

 

Wouldn't reccomend driving one over that breach (even though i'm an internal combustion fan!)

[Coombe Barton]

Not sure where you're going with this?

 

Long Rock is a long way from the damage at Dawlish, and should be able to help maintain stock marooned West of the breach once the storms pass...

I know that Long rock is a long way from Dawlish - it's between Marazion and Penzance. But it's just behind the sea defences that were breached a couple of years ago, and the line close to it is currently flooded., Long Rock depot is vulnerable to sea inundation because of its proximity to the sea. So the practicality of the long term use of Long Rock does depend on the wind direction, the tides and the sea. It won't take much to strip the sand from Long Rock and Marazion beaches and expose the mud underneath which will provide a lesser barrier to the waves. 

[Adrian Wintle]

From some of the photos of Dawlish on the BBC, it looks like the wall was breached, but the foundation is still intact. This would indicate that getting trains running again would effectively require rebuilding the section of wall, backfilling, and re-laying the section. It doesn't look like it will need a whole new foundation in the short term.

 

Adrian

[mow]

IIRC that after a "realistic" estimate was given, NR actually managed to get it back open a lot quicker...

 

"Wait and see" seems to be the most accurate answer, for the moment at least.

 

The problem was due to weight and sea...

 

I have enjoyed reading the many informed comments about this. Thanks.

Edited February 5, 2014 by mow

[Pacific231G]

Just watching the BBC lunchtime news. Usual inane question from a journalist to an NR engineer, looking at the washed away foundations -

"How long is it going to take to repair ?". With another inane journo parroting "4 to 6 weeks to repair". When the storms finally abate we will no doubt be informed accordingly, or perhaps it will have faded from the media, while they hype up something else.

 

Dennis

I'd have been somewhat amazed if the BBC reporter had failed to ask that question and so would the audience.

[Kris]

From some of the photos of Dawlish on the BBC, it looks like the wall was breached, but the foundation is still intact. This would indicate that getting trains running again would effectively require rebuilding the section of wall, backfilling, and re-laying the section. It doesn't look like it will need a whole new foundation in the short term.

 

Adrian

Although the foundations are there at the moment, the next couple of days will see if it survives, especially the ones forecast for this Saturday, which are forecast to be significantly larger than todays.

[SwissRailPassion]

Pity the people in the houses. They looked to have been undermined.

[royaloak]

Not sure where you're going with this?

 

Long Rock is a long way from the damage at Dawlish, and should be able to help maintain stock marooned West of the breach once the storms pass... 

As Long Rock isnt a maintenance depot it will not be able to maintain any trains.

 

The maintenance depot is at Plymouth Laira where the fitters will have to take a crash course in unit maintenance.

Lets not forget that all the HST coaches are maintained at Laira so somewhere else (Old Oak Common or Landore) will have to start looking after those!

[woodenhead]

If Network Rail does it's planning and recovery properly they will already have a plan for how they can make the sea wall route more robust. They must have known that an event such as this would occur one day, nothing beats the sea forever, it won't have been promoted as it would never see funding unless there was a breach such as this.

Edited February 5, 2014 by woodenhead

[Oldddudders]

The Penmanshiel diversion shows what can be achieved when the need arises.

 

 

 

 

But that was a link between the capitals, London & Edinburgh, and that was then. Government coffers are already under pressure as we know - and the weather this Winter is costing it dear in many places. Cornwall is already one of England's poorest counties, and losing its railway link could make things even worse. But is avoiding that a vote-winner these days?

 

ISTR NR is a not-for-profit company. No worries on that score for a year or two, at least!

[Ron Ron Ron]

From some of the photos of Dawlish on the BBC, it looks like the wall was breached, but the foundation is still intact.......

 

 

Although the foundations are there at the moment, the next couple of days will see if it survives, especially the ones forecast for this Saturday, which are forecast to be significantly larger than todays.

 

 

Pity the people in the houses. They looked to have been undermined.

 

Apart from in a few places, the BBC video coverage has been p*ss poor.

Again they turned up too late for the most dramatic video coverage, just as they did at various locations a couple of weeks ago.

Having looked at Channel 4 news, they have clearer video of events and some dramatic footage of the waves crashing over Dawlish and a couple of other SW locations. The Beeb doesn't appear to have any video like that.

 

As to the damage so far..

A couple of those houses have indeed been undermined and can't be far from imminent collapse or partial collapse.

The safety risk in itself may delay repair work to the railway and if emergency repair work to the houses can be carried out in time to prevent collapse, that also may delay NR.

It looks like a complex problem; sea wall to be secured and rebuilt, houses under threat of collapse, railway to be rebuilt.

 

Also, not being mentioned much, is the collapse of a small part of the platform on the seaward side (is that the "down line" at Dawlish?).

That suggests that the sea wall beneath has suffered and is now vulnerable to further sea damage before any repair work can be initiated.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26044323

 

Such is the continuing bad weather, we may see a worst situation developing over the next 48 hours, even before the arrival of the storm forecast to hit by the weekend.

High tide at Dawlish tonight is 22.22

 

Somehow, I can't see it taking only 6 weeks to get the line reopened.

 

 

 

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[Southernman46]

Perhaps the rebuilding will do away, once and for all, with the primitive idea of rail on sleeper on ballast and use a concrete slab base.

Pointless if the formation & substructure have gone.

 

 both at Exeter and Plymouth, reversals would be necessary, and these are an operational curse.

Easy with units (said the Engineer with a little dangerous operating knowledge) - I won't say HST's as these won't be around when they eventually do this eminently sensible option - Arriva XC do it at Reading & New St dozens of times a day.

 

Isn't it just bl**dy infuriating that the railway was put in this ridiculous situation by such short-sightedness in the past.............

Edited February 5, 2014 by Southernman46

[Siberian Snooper]

The proposed rail link to Tavistock will terminate before tge Tavistock to Gunnislake road and is part of a large housing development. The bridge over the road was removed as it was low 13 ft something if my memory seves me, which means that the trackbed would need to be raised also on the otherside of the road there is at least one house and on the Tavi North Station site there are council offices which encroach onto the trackbed.

 

In an earlier post someone mentioned Torcross, on tonights local news the sea defences there have also been breached and the houses evacuated.

 

SS

[JeffP]

The BBC did exactly what they did when the east Coast floods and tidal surge were going on before Christmas: stayed at home and talked about something FAR more important to the UK. In that case it was the death of Nelson Mandela....newsworthy, indeed, but hardly more important than the entire east coast flooding.

The next day they seemed to say, well, where's the nearest point to us? OK, send a team to Southend..where of course, nowt happened.

 

My home under threat the night before. I tried numerous times to get some news, but could only get Nelson Mandela. Even the local BBC was useless.

 

Personally, I shall be comparing how quickly this is dealt with, with how long it took to sort out Hatfield.