Some of the fleet

[Londontram]

I was talking to a friend via private mail and he asked me why I called my self London tram on this forum as when ever I seem to post its about the Caledonian Railway (which is my other passion) There’s not much on the go on the tram front but I pulled these out of the loft and took a few photos for any one that wants a look, be gentle please.

 

Photo 1 shows a LCC M class tram made from cutting down a tower E1 and making thicker end pillars and a new under frame from plasticard it runs on a Bec truck and I see from the photo that its picked up a bit of damage in storage in that the lower windows have come loose and the destination board has gone missing in action. Isn’t the camera such a cruel mistress?

Photo 2 is a detailed Kiel Kraft West Ham 4 wheel tram, the extra detail being mainly in the mesh and hand rails on the upper and lower balconies. This also runs on a Bec truck

Photo 3 is a Kiel Kraft tram converted to a Walthamstow 6 window car and super detailed like the previous one and on a Bec truck. Any one who has built one of these nice but simple kits will know how basic it is as built but dose make a very good base to convert to other trams, I have about five more of these un built for future projects and they can still be found on Ebay for very little money.

Photo 4 is an old Bec 4 wheeler which was brought very damaged and incomplete off Ebay which has been converted to a Metropolitan 4 arched window tram

Photo 5 is a brace of Feltham’s the front one in LT colours is a Bec white metal kit the second in Metropolitan markings is a Tower trams plastic kit on Bec bogies. Like the West Ham kits there are three more of these waiting in the wings

Photo 6 is the “Brick” a Bec white metal E1 one of my first and still my most favourite trams, runs like a dream and like all the bogie trams its two motors are cross wired and never stall

On the back burner as work in progress projects are two tower tram E1 kits, one being built as an E1 re-hab with flush sides and inset destination boxes built from plasticard. A second one is being built as an early E1 cir. 1920 and might have a trailer to run with it some day; this one was also acquired as a part built kit and has been carefully pulled apart and rebuilt. Also in hand is a tower trams SHMD Manchester bogie tram which is being built as an early LCC D class tram in open top form and will be built as one of the few that were fitted with a trolley pole as this class normally only run on the conduit (the kit is 90% E1 any way so its not a hard conversion) if any one want to see them I’ll take some photos? Thanks for looking regards Steve

[Londontram]

A few more photos of some of the ongoing projects, photo 1 is a tower E1 which is being built and painted to represent an LCC E1 cir 1920 and has a first coat of the early LCC livery applied.Note also that this will be the "front" end as the step is in the up position to stop people bording at the wrong end.

Photo 2 is a tower E1 being built as one of the 1930s re-hab cars and some of the changes from the previous tram are the flat lower sides and the inset destination boxes note also the bumper has been built up on both trams as the one on the kit as it comes is a bit poor.

The 3rd photo shows a another tower kit being built as an LCC D class tram in its original open top form, this is in the very early stages and all I’ve done so far is add the extra pillars to the end windows a feature of the A and D class cars. The plastic hand rails will be cut off and replaced with brass wire. All the trams are being built to take the Bec twin motor bogies

The final photo shows the E1 and D class trams, the D class is being built from the tower SHMD Manchester tram but the kit is basically an E1 so I could have used the tower E1 as the base. Handy for the modeller the A, D, E, E1, E3 and HR2 class London trams are all very close dimension wise and the tower E1 could be used as a base for any of these and could possible be used for some of the Metropolitan trams too like the H class for example. Thanks again for looking Steve

[Mikkel]

Hi Steve, very nice! I know very little about trams, but I can certainly see the attraction.

 

I'm off to study the BEC/Tower website.

[thirty2a]

very nice indeed as a (sort of) modeler of the London tram it's nice to im not alone.

[Londontram]

Thanks guys, when I first built them you can see I favoured the LT "red" period but want to look more at some of the earlier provincial liveries with the future builds especially with the Kiel Kraft 4 wheeler kit which lends its self to conversions to some of the smaller provincial  London councils trams. One of the un-built Kiel Kraft kits (which I picked up FOC as a part built unwanted kit) has already been converted to an open top tram and will I think be painted as an early burgundy and cream Walthemstow tram from about 1910, a Layton council primrose and brunswick Green 4 wheeler will most likely feature as well so should add a bit more colour to the fleet. Along with the un-started five 4 wheeler and two Feltham kits is an un started Tower trams E1 which I would like to look at building as a Metropolitan five window H class bogie tram cir. 1920s, but thats all for the future I'll get these three seen above done first and see from there. Steve ps. thirty2a I would love to know what period your interested in and let us know what you've done.

[tractionman]

These look great, have you plans for a layout for them too?

 

I was tempted a month or so back by some unfinished tram kits on Ebay, but was outbid - now I wish I had gone a bit higher!

 

cheers,

 

Keith

[Londontram]

Hello Keith thanks for your kind interest, I had an end to end street scene which was little more than a long shelf and I built all the overhead from brass rods and wire etc but that had to go in a divorce though I learnt a lot from it unfortunately the Ex lost (destroyed) all the photo’s I had of it.

                   I started on a small double circuit on a board about 4ft by 3f and have done most of the carpentry and built some buildings but a long period of I’ll health (I’m writing this from the hospital bed on my laptop at the moment) means any major modelling is on hold at the moment but I hope to resume work on that and some other projects soon. Regards Steve

[tractionman]

cheers Steve, sorry to hear that and hope you're back to modelling again soon - looking at those trams of yours it'll be a cracking layout to see when you're up and running again!

 

if you're looking for some tramway interest while in hospital and have a copy of the book on British tram depots (with the maps in it) there's a thing I can recommend - using Google Maps and Streetview for searching our the remains of old tram depots.

 

Doing this a while back, I spotted what looks like trackwork still in place at Derby Friargate. Pic below. The tracks appear to be near the left hand row of parked cars in the centre of he picture. Also there are some good depot buildings surviving at Lincoln and at Leicester.

 

all the best, and get well soon,

 

Keith

 

[Londontram]

 Hello Keith what a great photo, you sound like a man after my own heart as I just love having a route around to see what can still be found and keeping an eye out can sometime pay dividends. In the town of Great Yarmouth where I live the trams were abandoned back in the early 1930s but there are still a few bit to be found one of the better known ones being a cast iron four foot tall junction box with the town crest and Great Yarmouth corporation tramways cast in the doors giving access to the inside this had been sat on an island in the middle of the road on the sea front since tram days. A few years back the local authorities were laying a new gas main down the centre of the road and by chance I drove by just as the work men were digging up this traffic island. The junction box had been dug up and tipped on its side and had been chained up to a JCB bucket who was going to lift it onto the back of a lorry, smash it with the digger bucket and send it off for scrap. A quick chat with the JCB driver and a tenner in his back pocket and it was in the back of my estate car pushing the axle down to the stops, lucky I only had less than a mile back to my home I spent four months stripping it back to bare metal and brazing a crack in the body and it now sands on the street of the East Anglia transport museums recreated tram and trolley bus street. Here’s a link to the site and in this photo you can see it in grey primer during a repaint near the first over head upright on the right of the photo.

 

 http://www.eatm.org.uk/

[tractionman]

hi Steve,

 

Well rescued! Looks like a great museum you have there too. 

 

I remember in the mid 80s driving through the centre of Leicester and road resurfacing work had exposed the old tram rails. I stopped the car and took some pics, even though it was dark and raining! I also saw tram rails exposed in the Burges in Coventry in the early 80s, again due to road works, and this discovery even made it into the local paper.

 

I've dropped in below a few more results from my Google Streetview travels to former Midland tram depots... I hope I might get to Derby this summer to see if the tracks on the depot site there (in Friargate) are still visible or whether the site is now redeveloped.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

Bracebridge, Lincoln

 

 

 

Nottingham Road, Derby

 

 

 

Sherwood Depot, Nottingham

 

 

[Londontram]

Hello Keith sorry this is a bit long winded but I think you might find it interesting going along the lines (excuse the pun) of what we were talking about I decided on a whim about fifteen to twenty years ago to see what was left track wise in my home town of Great Yarmouth in Norfolk. The system used to consist of two unconnected sections the main one in Yarmouth its self running along the seafront through the town and on to the nearby village of Caister on sea and a separate section with its own depot and trams in the town of Gorleston on sea a district of Yarmouth which is separated by a river and a bascule bridge passengers having to get off the Gorleston tram walk across the bridge and get on the Yarmouth tram and continue there journey.

Starting as one dose with research in local libraries studying ordinance survey maps and records I quickly built up a complete picture of where the tracks including all point work passing loops etc were likely to be found. The next step was to contact the local council and get permission to survey the borough this would only be in the form of walking the routes with a metal detector and as long as the police were happy that I wasn’t a danger or causing traffic problems they were happy for me to have ago, the only proviso was I was not to dig any where on the high way “Doh”.

The police were a little sceptical at first but seeing as the council had given permission and I had assured them I would wear high viz clothing and only do it at off peak times (I did it early on Sunday morning over a period of a month) they also gave me their permission.

So armed with every thing I needed high viz clothing, metal detector a few cones just to help keep me safe I set off starting with the sea front what I found came as quite a shock as I thought there might be a few isolated sections but what I found was whole routes in some place still complete. To start with the whole of the sea front about a mile in length was complete double track from end to end with only a very short section at a road junction where a set of point seemed to have been cut out for about a five foot section on one track. The roads leading from the sea front was pretty much decimated so was the town centre. From the town centre to the tram depot (Now a bus depot with a new frontage but mostly unchanged inside was again very patchy one of the best sections was the gravel car park of a Staples stationers super store which was built on an area where the road had been realigned.

At a later date being private land and with the permission of the sore manager I was able to go back and using no more than a stiff broom was able to quickly uncover and photograph the double tram tracks being careful to return it to its original state after.

Back to the tram depot which again with the kind permission of the bus company management and cooperation from the staff I found that although the whole area had been resurfaced with concrete all the tracks beneath were in tacked and the management even kindly invited me back a few years later to see some of these tracks when they became exposed during some drainage work, there is also still some wall “roses” for attaching the original span wires still on the depot forecourt buildings.

The next stretch was from the depot on Caister road to the original terminus at Tan lane Caister about 3 miles in length was still at this time totally complete, originally single track with passing loops all appeared to be still there and using chalk was able to draw out many of the point work for these passing loops the track finally curving from the centre of the road to stop by the curb side at the Tan lane terminus. One had the feeling that although no over head remained like the uncovered track in Heaton park in Manchester if the tarmac on the road was skimmed slightly that it wouldn’t take to much to make the tracks usable again so complete was it.

 

At about that time there was a proposal to reintroduce a form of tram to the sea front as part of a major town regeneration scheme then in the planning stage the town having received a government grant for this and a group (I was not involved with) suggested using the Perry people mover tram system thus avoiding the need to construct any overhead equipment. I submitted my discoveries with the fact that at that time a mile of double track on the seafront still existed to the council who to be honest showed very little interest in the idea as it never fitted in with the way they foresaw the seafront redevelopment and despite the group trying to raise the profile in the local press making the front page of the local papers on more than one occasion the idea was dropped.

 

Unfortunately as is often the case more damage has been done in the last twenty years than in the previous fifty years since the system first closed in the early 1930s. The laying of a major gas main to feed a new power station and the seafront redevelopment means most of one of the seafront tracks and parts of the second have been removed and a new junction for a Tesco super store and work on a major flood relief and sewage scheme meant that many sections of the depot to Caister route has been cut and truncated in many places. Part of the work cut right through a passing loop set of points and I was able to recover a few short lengths (about 8ft in two 4ft lengths) of track as keep sakes, interesting to note even though I had given my report to the council these contractors working on this council scheme had no idea they would come across the tracks and the very substantial concrete “raft” they were laid upon and I was able to supply them with much information on what they might find in the rest of the projects digging areas saving them in the words of the works manager considerable time and money (as gratitude he did offer me the complete point assembly but at the time I was not involved in any museum schemes it had already been cut and damaged and believe me there’s a lot of weigh and bulk there and her indoors didn’t fancy that sat on the lawn)

One can only assume my report given to the council a few years before must have gone straight in the bin! Sorry to have gone on so long I hope it was of interest to you oh and the junction box I recovered that I told you about in a previous post – well there one more of those still in place near the town centre that I’m keeping my eye on. Regards Steve

[tractionman]

Cheers Steve - that's a great bit of detective work and I had not imagined using a metal detector to locate tram tracks, but it's a good idea! For using the OS maps there are a couple of good websites that allow you to overlay historic maps onto modern aerial photographs - one is for Norfolk - called Map Explorer: http://www.historic-maps.norfolk.gov.uk/ and another one is for the whole of the UK, http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/ created by the National Library of Scotland - if it's of interest, I posted on using this a few months back on the Disused Railways special thread on RMWeb, with a few pointers on how to get the historic maps to overlay.

 

From the Norfolk site, I've dropped in below a screenshot for Great Yarmouth with the first edition Ordnance Survey 6" map (showing the tramway near the station) overlaid onto modern aerial imagery. If you have a play with the transparency settings the map can be made stronger, or alternatively the air photo, to see how the old relates to the new. Good fun!

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

[Londontram]

Hello Keith, I'll have to look into these map sites they look very handy when I did the resurch it was back in pre web days and most libraries had (and still do have) the original OS maps going back for the last 100 years or so. The one you posted here is of interest as it shows Yarmouth south town station one of three in the town at the time and as well as the station there was lines running onto the quay and even now you can still find there tracks and the odd wagon turn table and cable shunting bollard in some of the river front yards. The road coming up in the centre of the map is south town road and was the tram route for trams to and from the town of Gorleston which was still part of Yarmouh district, just out of sight at the top centre is the bridge that devided the two parts of the tram system that I mentioned in my last post. Off trams but of interest the tight packed area of houses on the right of the map/river is known as the rows a well known feature of old Yarmouth and consists of row upon row of narrow allyways full of small cottage type houses used by fishermen and there families so tight were some that its said you could lean out the top windows and shake hands with the person oppersite. Most of this was swept away in WW2 bombing very little being left now. South town station was the only town station with a direct line to London the other two having to go via Norwich, all gone now the track bed forming part of the towns bypass. Regards Steve, PS going back to the trams at Caister was a big holiday camp (sill is, its part of the warner group) all the Yarmouth tram bodys were sold to this camp and turned into holiday chalets but there all gone now (yes I've checked lol)

[thirty2a]

Very interesting stuff on the Yarmouth tracks! I grew up in Norwich and remeber the Yarmouth quay tracks in the town, dont remember seeing any running on it though sadly.<br /><br />thirty2a I would love to know what period your interested in and let us know what you've done.<br /><br />I love the end period of London trams post war until end of effectively South London System, I have a Corgi Feltham with Hornby DCC chip in it no trackwork yet as early experiments have been less than satisfactory but given time...<br /><br /><br /><br />

[Londontram]

Hello thirty2a the tracks on Hall quay have all gone but the ones that went on from there past the scrap yard at Queens Road towards the power station are sill there but buried. If its tram track your not sure about making there are many methods and every one has there own idea so don’t take mine as gospel, I use peco code 100 rail glued or tacked down boarded buy thin ply either side to bring the rest of the road up to near the rail height then and I stress this test run any and all trams as this is the last chance to get the track right, when happy I use Isopons P38 car filler (there are other makesetc. do short sections at a time as it goes off quick) cover the tracks up to rail height blending it into the ply boarders (Very very slightly below rail height helps when you later have to clean the track as you don’t then rub on the road surface if you use a track rubber, I also put a very thin skim over the ply so there’s a uniform finish plus later you can scribe stone sets or man hole details in it) when dry you can sand it smooth leaving the running rails visible but with no grove don’t forget to always use a mask and safety glasses as car filler is an irritant. For the grove I made a simple tool which was a small blade flat head screw driver about double the width of the rail and filed half the head off into a sort of step so when the low point of the head sat on the rail top of a bit of uncovered track at about a 45 degree angle the longer un filed section of the screw driver end sat above and wouldn’t touch the rail chairs, altering the angle of the screwdriver varies the depth so experiment. Now working chisel fashion I would gouge a grove on the inside edge of each rail keeping the step on the screwdriver against the rail to guide it. When done hover the dust out test run the trams again (you might have to make the grove slightly wider on corners etc so you might need a slightly wider screw driver cut to allow for this you can blend it in to the straight sections by altering the “angle of attack” of the screw driver. When your happy you can add other road detail, in London where the overhead was being used in the later years generally the road was fully tarmaced where the conduit was used the area between the rails and for about 1 ft a scale 4mm either side was stone setts (to allow access to service the conduit track note in some places the tarmac came right up to the rails and the only part with stone or sometime wood setts was between the rails) and these can be cut using a steel rule and a scribe (don’t be to uniform with the stone ones) The filler will take most types of paint but I’ve always got on well with poster paint or even water colours mixed thinly they soak in and in my opinion look quite natural, I like to mix a nice blue grey colour. For the conduit rail code 100 rail stripped off the sleepers and turned upside down has a groove effect on its underside this can be soldered to copper clad sleepers laid every so often between the running rails before the filler goes down. Some areas even with the conduit were fully tarmaced as this late 1930s film shows (The trams are red and cream but some are with out windscreens which makes it mid to late 1930s as after the war all remaining passenger cars had screens) remember these are just my ideas there are many others maybe some of the other members could give them here as well.

 

 

[thirty2a]

Very informative thanks,I will try again soon I expect but have to wait our flat is about to be refurbed so then will have an area at my disposal for bit of a layout nice size for some tramage!!

[melmerby]

If anybody's interested I think you will find this building in Carlisle was a tram depot: (fairly small)

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.886279,-2.921267&spn=0.001302,0.002411&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=54.886279,-2.921267&panoid=7Or5RX2HCVcsi4-S0kU0iQ&cbp=12,46.63,,0,0

 

And this is Moseley Road, Birmingham: (Quite a large one)

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.454277,-1.886816&spn=0.005518,0.009645&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.454226,-1.886836&panoid=nTGitWGeQ_qL4AyYmJ1wuA&cbp=12,72.59,,0,0

 

Selly Oak (also large):

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.442056,-1.941553&spn=0.011039,0.01929&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.442056,-1.941553&panoid=OZWfhLokAW-Bw9wvVCDnXw&cbp=12,266.92,,0,0

 

Or this (Aston Manor still with name clearly visible!) - was used by the now moved Aston Manor Transport Museum

https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.51135,-1.885901&spn=0.000487,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=52.51135,-1.885901&panoid=odwSAFWSuf8HI68T6NXGmA&cbp=12,24.93,,0,-6.71

 

There are plenty of others around.

 

Keith

[Londontram]

If anybody's interested I think you will find these buildings were tram depots

 

Keith

Always very interested Keith thanks for posting these great shots, would love to spend an hour or two with a detector to see whats under the floors and in the roads out side. thanks again if you find any more please let us see them regards Steve

[Edthefolkie]

Keith, "Doing this a while back, I spotted what looks like trackwork still in place at Derby Friargate."

 

I've just had a look at the same spot on Google Earth, and can't work it out at all. Doesn't help that it's years since I was down there (er, 1964, the last passenger service into Friargate). The car park in the screen grab is across the road from the station, and the spot with the "tracks" is adjacent to where the station approach arches used to be, so there wouldn't have been much room for 4 foot gauge trackwork there. The Derby tram depot was I think on Osmaston Road, although the trams did run under Friargate railway bridge.  The admittedly microscopic map in "Great British Tramway Networks" doesn't show anything helpful, and the only map of Derby tramways on the web is unreadable (typical).   

 

So it's a mystery, but an interesting one. Not helped by the fact that the location may have been built on since Google last took a snap - see Street View. I may have to have a look on the ground.

 

Thanks for posting all the shots, I love this detective work. Google Earth and Street View are in some ways the best thing since sliced bread, especially for sorting out the locations of old slides. But it ain't half addictive, I'm supposed to be in the local Waitrose right now! Cheers - Ed  

[melmerby]

Always very interested Keith thanks for posting these great shots, would love to spend an hour or two with a detector to see whats under the floors and in the roads out side. thanks again if you find any more please let us see them regards Steve

I think the Aston Manor one still has some track in it (or did when the Museum took it over?)

 

The two big ones served as bus garages for many years after the trams left, so any tracks may have been removed years ago.

There are some other depots in Birmingham which had trams, later converted to buses and some buildings still exist.

Miller Street:https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.493272,-1.892952&spn=0.00052,0.001032&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=52.493272,-1.892952&panoid=aZoXfqcR3ngp5Hk69PXM2g&cbp=12,226.72,,0,15.2

Highgate Road:https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.459013,-1.873773&spn=0.00416,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.459013,-1.873773&panoid=-9kB3IN-vcQGLdktZX9sYg&cbp=12,241.84,,0,0

Coventry Road/Arthur Street (also housed some of the City's Trolley bus fleet!):https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.474259,-1.869757&spn=0.005882,0.016512&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.474284,-1.869627&panoid=IQxFEcnU0F6AtsJsXEnIWw&cbp=12,199.9,,0,9.88

 

Some of the others have disappeared without trace.

 

I remember some years ago visiting an engineering firm in Worcester (Windshields of Worcester) and the works still had the tracks left over from when that had been a tram depot which I believe had closed in 1928!

Supposedly there are still tracks in Padmore Street Firstbus depot in  Worcester.

 

Keith

[tractionman]

Keith, "Doing this a while back, I spotted what looks like trackwork still in place at Derby Friargate."

 

I've just had a look at the same spot on Google Earth, and can't work it out at all. Doesn't help that it's years since I was down there (er, 1964, the last passenger service into Friargate). The car park in the screen grab is across the road from the station, and the spot with the "tracks" is adjacent to where the station approach arches used to be, so there wouldn't have been much room for 4 foot gauge trackwork there. The Derby tram depot was I think on Osmaston Road, although the trams did run under Friargate railway bridge.  The admittedly microscopic map in "Great British Tramway Networks" doesn't show anything helpful, and the only map of Derby tramways on the web is unreadable (typical).   

 

So it's a mystery, but an interesting one. Not helped by the fact that the location may have been built on since Google last took a snap - see Street View. I may have to have a look on the ground.

 

Thanks for posting all the shots, I love this detective work. Google Earth and Street View are in some ways the best thing since sliced bread, especially for sorting out the locations of old slides. But it ain't half addictive, I'm supposed to be in the local Waitrose right now! Cheers - Ed  

 

Hi Ed,

 

Thanks, yes - I guess the area's been cleared but I was using the 1889 OS map as a guide to location of the depot, the one that appears in the excellent book, 'The Directory of British Tram Depots' (by Keith Turner, Shirley Smith and Paul Smith) which shows the tracks running from Friargate into the depot through a very narrow entrance under the railway bridge. The depot closed in 1908!

 

I've dropped in (below) a Google Streetview screenshot of the narrow entrance way which fits well with the position of the entrance shown on the 1889 OS. Comparing the historic OS plans from the Turner et al book with the Google Maps/Streetview is quite a nice way of doing some armchair industrial archaeology, and searching out potential places to visit.

 

Glad to see there are other tram depots surviving - amazing really - and thanks to Keith for starting a specific thread on the topic!

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

[Edthefolkie]

Thanks for that Keith, I stand corrected! I should have looked at an OS map, one does get a bit too reliant upon the mighty Web for info. I also must try to get a copy of the tram depot book. 

 

I noticed there was room for an entrance but never dreamed anyone would be daft enough to put  trackwork through it!  

 

Sometimes, without documentation, you would never know a tramway  or railway had been in a particular spot. But when you DO know, all becomes clear. Here's the reserved track of the Notts & Derbys tramway (closed 1932) as seen on Google Earth - junction of Nuthall Road and Stockhill Lane, Nottingham. The old tramway runs from centre left  across the sports field to bottom right. The formation is very visible to the left of the four trees. There must be a photo of the reserved track in use, but I have never found it. 

 

[Greenbat]

cheers Steve, sorry to hear that and hope you're back to modelling again soon - looking at those trams of yours it'll be a cracking layout to see when you're up and running again!

 

if you're looking for some tramway interest while in hospital and have a copy of the book on British tram depots (with the maps in it) there's a thing I can recommend - using Google Maps and Streetview for searching our the remains of old tram depots.

 

Doing this a while back, I spotted what looks like trackwork still in place at Derby Friargate. Pic below. The tracks appear to be near the left hand row of parked cars in the centre of he picture. Also there are some good depot buildings surviving at Lincoln and at Leicester.

 

all the best, and get well soon,

 

Keith

 

Derby Friargate.jpg

 

 

Morning,

 

Saw when I woke up. Since I had to nip in town, I thought I'd take a look.

 

 

 

 

First, I stopped under the bridge to look at the alleyway entrance.

 

 

It's now a rubbish filled gap in the city, but would have been a street down the side of the former embankment. Whilst the line of the tracks in the google earth image does suggest this is the entrance, I can see no evidence of overhead line fittings on the walls, and the cobbles have no rails in them.

 

 

Of course, it may be they were relaid after removing the tracks, but I'd have thought if that were so they'd have been tarmaced. Also, the way this former road joins the main street looks unsuitable for trams, its a tight bend and a short, sharp ramp. So probably not it.

 

 

You can just make out here how one archway of abutment is left.

 

I then went round to the car park. This has changed quite a bit since Google flew over. Heres a slightly shifted view:

 

 

The area where the rails are is fenced off, due to be redeveloped. Where the access road goes in from the top, to the right the plot of land with buildings etc is now a shiny, new, empty and pointless office building. This plot of land will become more of the same.

 

The double row of cars parked nose to nose is about on the line of the old embankment. Where the rails are, you can see the remains of the cobbles. If you look at the top of the picture, follow the line of the rails and you'll see some bushes. These cover quite an old looking wall. I'm not sure if it would pre or post date the closure of Derby tramways. It does seem the more logical access point though.

 

Below are what photos I could get through the fence, showing the cobbled ground. The tracks are just visible, though I can't make out what gauge. I spoke to a lady in a nearby garage, who confirmed there are rails there. Supposedly, the new building will incorporate them somehow.

 

 

You can see here some wooden hoardings. This is the other side of the alleyway in the first photos.

 

[Greenbat]

Although, I could have just googled instead of trudging about for an hour! Found these, labelled as Friar Gate horse tram depot.

 

https://www.hpacde.org.uk/picturethepast/jpgh_donated/PTPD001581.jpg

 

First picture is a view of the rails before it was fenced off, the wall on the left is the cut off end of the abutment.

 

I think this view must be the same place, before the embankment was demolished.

 

https://www.hpacde.org.uk/picturethepast/jpgh_donated/PTPD002884.jpg

 

So looks like that small alley was the entrance. I would guess that being a horse tram depot, it would have been closed and the rails in lifted at a time when recobbling was normal, hence no trace in my first photos. Also, horses explain the lack of overhead fittings!