Cattle wagons

[hayfield]

I have just bought a partly made Parkside NE cattle wagon. First job is to finish it but I have a few questions.

 

Being new to 7 mm scale what weight should it be for good running ?

 

What colour should the interior be

 

There are 2 partitions in the kit, did they always run with the wagons or only used when being used. What colour were they

 

Livestock, are there any inexpensive animals available. I am thinking of light weight ones as whitemetal would not only be expensive but also heavy and alter the centre of gravity of the model

 

Thanks in advance

[Andy Hayter]

I can only help with one part - internal colour. As new Brown/Bauxite but after each use they were washed down with lime as a disinfectant and so rapidly became a dirty white.

[Coombe Barton]

The use of lime as a disinfectant was discontinued about 1924 - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70648-cattle-wagons-and-limewashwhitewash/

[Il Grifone]

As regards weight the NMRA recommends 5oz. plus 1oz. per inch of car length - say 10/11oz. My opinion is that their H0 recommendation is rather on the heavy side, so it is probably also the case here.

 

Concerning the interior colour, there has been some discussion elewhere, but AFAIK no firm conclusion was reached, though unpainted wood was favoured (a dirty grey would not seem unlikely). I believe few if any of the LNER wagons made it into BR days, as they suffered from weak underframes, which caused the ends to droop*. They were replaced with new construction based on the GWR design, but these had short lives due to loss of the traffic. (My maternal grandparents lived at Marsh Mills directly in front of the marshalling yard. (Holidays had the background music of crashing buffers and steam GWR shunting locomotives!   . I can remember lines of redundant cattle wagons up against the buffer stops.)

 

* the short wheelbase didn't help!

 

The partitions stayed with the wagons. AFAIK there was only one, which was positioned to reduce the size of the wagon - there were different tarifs depending on whether one required small, medium or large. (Originally there were different sized wagons, but this uneconomic practice died out in the 20th century. I assume their colour would be the same as the interior, but in the abscence of definite knowledge, I would go for the dirty grey.

 

Preiser do 0 gauge cattle and sheep, but they are quite expensive. Packs of toy animals from Poundland etc.might supply something suitable - a high standard of detail is not required.

[hayfield]

Thanks for the info, I guess its light brown/grey with darkening nearer the floor.

 

As for animals I will have a look in £ shops but dont quite know what size they should be. 6 Bachmann O gauge ones come in at £26

[Robin Brasher]

There is an American firm called Modelpower that makes cheap plastic cows, horses, people and station lamps for 0 gauge railways. I have seen a cattle wagon on one of the preserved lines and it had a whitewashed interior.

[Tim Lewis]

 I believe few if any of the LNER wagons made it into BR days, as they suffered from weak underframes, which caused the ends to droop*. 

 

 

This is the 'standard' LNER cattle wagon isn't it?  In which case, many hundreds made it into BR days, both 9' and 10' wheelbase (more of the latter).

[Worsdell forever]

This is the 'standard' LNER cattle wagon isn't it?  In which case, many hundreds made it into BR days, both 9' and 10' wheelbase (more of the latter).

Not only that but over 200 NER ones made it to BR. The LNER short wheelbase ones were rather weak though.

[jonhall]

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66421-livestock-photos-from-the-nrm/

 I think I've fixed all the photo links after the NRM moved them all.

 

Jon

[hmrspaul]

These are a relatively modern Cattle wagon - mid 1930s. The interior, and therefore the moveable partition would have been unpainted - possibly the metalwork would have been body colour, although I suspect they would have been unpainted to stop any risk to the animals being carried. As they were washed down between every trip with colourless detergent - probably Jeyes Fluid or similar - the interiors would have been quite bright woodwork - that silvery appearance that is so difficult to reproduce on models. They lasted will into the 1950s - there is a nice photo of one in the Photomatic series.

 

Remember to glue the partition down, (I didn't) as they are very fiddly to replace once the roof is on!

 

Paul

PS even the NRM painted the inside of their BR cattle wagon and, when challenged, agreed it was completely incorrect, simply to assist conservation.

[RonnieS]

The use of lime as a disinfectant was discontinued about 1924 - see http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70648-cattle-wagons-and-limewashwhitewash/

 

I have just bought a partly made Parkside NE cattle wagon. First job is to finish it but I have a few questions.

 

Being new to 7 mm scale what weight should it be for good running ?

 

What colour should the interior be

 

There are 2 partitions in the kit, did they always run with the wagons or only used when being used. What colour were they

 

Livestock, are there any inexpensive animals available. I am thinking of light weight ones as whitemetal would not only be expensive but also heavy and alter the centre of gravity of the model

 

Thanks in advance

It's cruel use to use Quick lime on hooves but even in the 1950s the interior would still have shown the distressing effects of the caustic solution. So maybe a wash of a mild sovent before painting light oak for freshly scrubbed or track colour for neglected. In 7mm some staw on the floor wold be worthwhile. Maybe a bit of static grass sprinkled on to wet paint?

[Buckjumper]

It's cruel use to use Quick lime on hooves but even in the 1950s the interior would still have shown the distressing effects of the caustic solution. So maybe a wash of a mild sovent before painting light oak for freshly scrubbed or track colour for neglected. In 7mm some staw on the floor wold be worthwhile. Maybe a bit of static grass sprinkled on to wet paint?

 

The replacement for limewash was a 5% phenol solution - basically Jeyes fluid as Paul mentions in post #10.

 

Why model bits of straw and muck in empty cattle wagons? They were swept clean and disinfected for a reason - to stop the spread of disease including foot & mouth. I doubt any farmer would allow his herd into any wagon displaying signs of the previous occupants, and if the relevant government department of the day found out I'm sure they'd come down like a ton of bricks on the railway company.

[Poggy1165]

It is sometimes possible to obtain Britain's calves on Ebay. These, when repainted, are just about passable for cattle in 7mm scale, though the proportions are not ideal. They are (relatively) cheap, but it takes a surprisingly large number to fill even a medium cattle wagon. (I would only use them to fill a cattle wagon, not to populate a field.)

 

One would need to be a person of means to fill a cattle special with the white metal cattle that can be had for 7mm scale! Indeed, it might be cheaper to commission a small loco to be built. There is a moulding that can be bought that is basically the top halves of a crowd of cattle - to go in a cattle van. However, I don't find it convincing, as most cattle vans have slats that can be looked through, and a solid blob of resin (or whatever it is) does not pass for the legs of a crowd of cattle.

[ZiderHead]

Being new to 7 mm scale what weight should it be for good running ?

Erik Olsen 1/45 (linky)

wagon/van/coach 100g plus 1g per mm length over buffing faces,

four- and six-wheeled vehicles at least 125g per axle and

eight-wheeled vehicles at least 100g per axle.

 

NMRA O Gauge

5oz + 1oz/inch

 

I'm springing my wagons so I'm using Erik Olsen's guidelines of 125/100g per axle min. They are pleasingly hefty 

[ian@stenochs]

Hi.

Half the journeys cattle vans made they ran empty and when the vans are in sidings they would also be empty so save yourself a bit of hastle and cash and build your van empty too. If you want to model some cattle have them in a pen waiting to be loaded or collected by the stockman or even being watered if they are on a long journey.

The insides of the vans were unpainted, cattle lick paint which can kill them, and white limewash was only used up to the very early grouping period. After that diuted Jayes fluid was used.

Cattle vans and coal wagons were just about the only one wagon type goods trains you can run on a pregroup layout but equaly they look good as a single specimen in a mixed train. Trouble with cattle vans is that each company had distinctive designs only a few of which the trade gets round to producing so if you want authenticity scratchbuilding is the only way. Luckily if you model the BR period there were few varients around and they are well catered for by the kit market.

Happy modelling.

Ian.

[hmrspaul]

The replacement for limewash was a 5% phenol solution - basically Jeyes fluid as Paul mentions in post #10.

 

Why model bits of straw and muck in empty cattle wagons? They were swept clean and disinfected for a reason - to stop the spread of disease including foot & mouth. I doubt any farmer would allow his herd into any wagon displaying signs of the previous occupants, and if the relevant government department of the day found out I'm sure they'd come down like a ton of bricks on the railway company.

 

Thanks for confirming the disinfectant, the official rule books don't say with precision what to use.

 

You are, of course, completely correct about disease control. The BR Livestock Handbook has pages and pages about the main diseases that could outbreak and the necessary controls. Respect for animals goes back a long time in Britain. Many may have been on their way to slaughter but the instructions ensured they were fed, watered, minimally shunted and positioned carefully in trains.

 

On a model railway a lot of interesting complication can be added by having loaded livestock vehicles - not just positioning for loading etc. but they couldn't be part of a shunt that wasn't deliberately for them. And of course I am using Livestock with care, as these wagons were used for all larger farm animals, cheaper horses, mules etc. With rules about when the wagons should be enclosed or open according to dates of the year - and differing by each type of animal. BR even issued an addition to ensure that it was understood that livestock not only included poultry but all of the separate families of parrots - naming each type Conure, Macaw etc. Working a railway was very complex.

 

Paul

[Flying Pig]

Working a railway was very complex.

 

"Station master say, mum, as cats is 'dogs', and rabbits is 'dogs' and so's parrots; but this 'ere 'tortis' is a insect, so there ain't no charge for it!"

['CHARD]

What did the Sectional Appendix say about handling Mermaids, I wonder?

[Buckjumper]

What did the Sectional Appendix say about handling Mermaids, I wonder?

 

Thereby hangs a tail (sic)

[The Stationmaster]

What did the Sectional Appendix say about handling Mermaids, I wonder?

Dunno about the Sectional Appendix but you did have to be careful about the way you tipped them

['CHARD]

Dunno about the Sectional Appendix but you did have to be careful about the way you tipped them

 

Oh I'm sure

[Buckjumper]

On a model railway a lot of interesting complication can be added by having loaded livestock vehicles - not just positioning for loading etc. but they couldn't be part of a shunt that wasn't deliberately for them. And of course I am using Livestock with care, as these wagons were used for all larger farm animals, cheaper horses, mules etc. With rules about when the wagons should be enclosed or open according to dates of the year - and differing by each type of animal. BR even issued an addition to ensure that it was understood that livestock not only included poultry but all of the separate families of parrots - naming each type Conure, Macaw etc. Working a railway was very complex.

 

 

Agreed, and I suggest it worthwhile modellers looking up the relevant Appendices to the WTT to see the rules surrounding the movement of vehicles such as horseboxes, prize cattleboxes and carriage trucks too as they tend to throw up some interesting regs, particularly once the occupants were disgorged.

 

For example, on the Great Eastern each District had delegated Depot Stations where these three types of vehicles were concentrated and no other station was to retain them. Company vehicles had to be cleaned and returned to these Depot Station by the first available train and foreign vehicles had to be returned to the owning company, again, by the first available train. The single exception which allowed for vehicles to be unloaded and run without being cleaned were horseboxes unloaded at Liverpool Street; they were to be sent at once (bold in the AWTT) to Stratford to be cleaned as there wasn't time to do so before the departure of the train by which they arrived.

 

In addition, Depot Stations were allocated a specific number of each type of vehicle and were not allowed to hold more. Additional vehicles arriving in the District which were not required at a station within that District, nor at the District Depot, had to be worked back to Liverpool Street immediately, where there was no limit.

 

Makes for some interesting movements.

[Dunsignalling]

This is the 'standard' LNER cattle wagon isn't it?  In which case, many hundreds made it into BR days, both 9' and 10' wheelbase (more of the latter).

I've been building a 4mm one, it's taking a while as I'm converting it to one of the 10' wb. wagons, a few of which survived to about 1961/2.

 

As part of the process, I've been digging through my library for photographs. So far, I've not found ANY pictures of 9' wb LNER Standard cattle wagons with BR lettering.

 

I also found an article in an old Railway Modeller which suggests that the 9' wb Standard wagons were scrapped shortly after the war. Even if a few did survive nationalization, BR may well have condemned them on sight. With no evidence of renumbering, I think it fair to assume that none survived beyond about 1950.  

 

The ones that were prone to distortion were built c1927 and were outlasted by some GNR pattern wagons built in 1924.

 

John

[RonnieS]

The replacement for limewash was a 5% phenol solution - basically Jeyes fluid as Paul mentions in post #10.

 

Why model bits of straw and muck in empty cattle wagons? They were swept clean and disinfected for a reason - to stop the spread of disease including foot & mouth. I doubt any farmer would allow his herd into any wagon displaying signs of the previous occupants, and if the relevant government department of the day found out I'm sure they'd come down like a ton of bricks on the railway company.

Who would have done the cleaning and when? Assume cattle van arrives @ town dock cattle to be  road transported to slaughter house. Then returns empty to  branch line cattle dock to wait for farmer to deliver more cattle.

[Coombe Barton]

Who would have done the cleaning and when? Assume cattle van arrives @ town dock cattle to be  road transported to slaughter house. Then returns empty to  branch line cattle dock to wait for farmer to deliver more cattle.

One would assume that it would be cleaned as soon as possible after unloading to prevent breeding of bugs.