Beyond the Class 85

[ThaneofFife]

I began to wonder yesterday if we will see another AC electric loco from Bachmann.

The debates rage about how well overhead locos sell and a minority seem to have it on good authority that the Class 85 has not sold well something I say is too early to say on with any certainty....i actually think that adding to the range would boost sales of the 85 provided any new model compliments it.think 81 86 87 90 or any of the emus you care to mention am9 am10 class 303 etc

 

Others have said electrics have never sold and if thats always been so you have to wonder what the thought processes were by Bachmann who then went on to bring out the Class 85.Surely electrics never became bad sellers just about at the time people were reporting poor 85 sales? If the poor seller philosophy is correct wouldnt this have manifested itself years ago with the Hornby range? If they sell that badly would you risk bringing out an all new model and take a punt-is that what the 85 was?.....just a punt or was it all part of a carefully planned range of new electrics to be brought out over the next say decade to take a firm hold over those modellers who want to see more new AC locos? It didny put Bachmann off at the time -they could have canned their plans for the 85 and concentrated on yet another diseasel. I remember there seemed to be a heck of a lot of interest when Heljan announced a new 86 was on its way.poor sales were put down to a poorly executed model-did that damage interest in AC locos?

Has Bachmann maybe now stuffed its entire AC loco folder into Room101 now or does it take a long term view on sales not a premature short term one ?

I really dont care what any future AC model may be as i think anyone class would be most welcome.i am sure those interested in these machines all have views on this so lets hear them......its not a wishlist thread or even one of your crystal ball type threads but more one about whether we think we will see any more new models or whether Bachmann (or Hornby or Heljan for that matter) will add new electrics to their ranges.....

Edited March 16, 2014 by ThaneofFife

[brushman47544]

In my view electrics will always be the poor relation to steam and diesels until a main stream manufacturer produced ready to plant British outline catenary and by that I mean on a par with Hornby's signals in terms of availability and ease of use.

 

As regards models, it's what the manufacturers think about sales that matters and it is clear that Bachmann's Class 85 has sold less well than its contemporary diesels. Whether that is enough of a difference deter Bachmann producing more electric locos we will have to wait and see. But I don't think locos are the only issue. Most electric units come as 4-car sets and they cost significantly more to develop and buy as a single purchase, perhaps why the excellent Desiro unit apparently hasn't sold as well as hoped. So affording Units to run alongside the locos may be out of reach of a lot of people. Also, electric units saw more localised use than di else units, also affecting potential sales.

[Marcus 37]

Definitely think the ready to plant catenary would improve sales. Even with this though the market lacks good RTR electric models apart from the 85 and the 350 EMU. So unless you want a layout full of Class 85s and 350's which don't even go together time wise anyway it's not much good.

If we had decent models of 86, 87, 90, 91, 92 etc along with the ready to plant catenary I'm sure it would make this aspect of modelling a lot more appealing. I for one would certainly give it a thought as I do like the class 85. Unfortunately though if I bought one now it would probably spend most of its time in the box.

Marcus

[griffgriff]

I think if Heljan had made a decent fist of their 86 things would be different.  Having a lonesome 21st century standard electric loco isn't going to persuade anyone to have a go at stringing up wires but a pair might and then perhaps other loco classes might follow.  I doubt Bachmann will  be the ones unless they are feeling particularly brave (but they might) but until a manufacturer picks up the the batten then I'm afraid the 'cans' are well and truly in the can,  

[Traksy]

Next electric will be the 88 from Dapol in my opinion (keep in mind this is actually an electro-diesel so you don't really need catenary).

 

 

From here:

 

David Haarhaus at Bachmann Europe said:

Actually the answer is very simple. The factories do not produce products in any alternating fashion, steam era, Diesel era, steam era.
 
We have to add the relatively small quantity of club models onto our main production runs to enable them to come to market. With a new tooling, it is easier to plan a limited edition for the club as we have a clearer idea of when the R&D function is complete, and when production will take place. Therefore, normally we always try to produce a club model on the new tooling. There has not been a great deal of suitable new Modern Image tooling recently. Blue Pullman, 10001 do not really lend themselves. Class 40, Blue or Green? We took a gamble on the 85, and by and large it paid off.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Traksy

[Andy Y]

Next electric will be the 88 from Dapol in my opinion (keep in mind this is actually an electro-diesel so you don't really need catenary).

 

 

From here:

 

David Haarhaus at Bachmann Europe said:

 

That quote specifically related to the Collectors Club 85.

[Traksy]

True but it's the best we can get about the viability of the model from official sources.

[Marcus 37]

Next electric will be the 88 from Dapol in my opinion (keep in mind this is actually an electro-diesel so you don't really need catenary).

 

 

From here:

 

David Haarhaus at Bachmann Europe said:

 

Hopefully then with that comment they may be tempted to have another go. Probably best to have either another stab at the 86 or the class 90 due to their wide fields of operation on both passenger and freight with a multitude of liveries to go at.

[wombatofludham]

Is it actually clear that AC electrics don't sell?  If you look at the Bachmann website where they indicate availability, which I believe actually relates to availability in the warehouse (although I'm open to correction), then both the electric blue and post-TOPS Rail blue versions have been marked as "unavailable" for a while, then re-emerged at a higher RRP.  To me, that indicates that there must have been at least one re-run.  The announcement of the arguably more desirable small yellow end electric blue variant also appears to suggest that the model is at least selling to Bachmann's expectations.  If it was the lemon some naysayers suggest, would Bachmann waste a highly valuable production slot on something that will sit on the shelves, or use it to produce the gazillionth duplicate of a Class 37?

 

I'm convinced that the Heljan Class 86, apart from it's well advertised faults like the National Grid pylon for a pantograph and the poorly executed grille detailing on the side, made the mistake of being based on the locomotive's condition in a very narrow timescale towards the end of it's life. Had they started with an AL6 in original condition, or an 86/2 in 1974-1987 condition, I have a feeling it might have done better.  It's interesting that whilst you can still just get the Virgin, Freightliner and Anglia liveries in the shops, you cannot find Intercity liveried examples for love nor money, even on GreedBay.  That suggests that post privatisation liveries are possibly less popular.  I still think that an 86, produced to allow the models to represent every condition/livery from as delivered in blue with small yellow ends, through to Inter City Executive 86/2, could be the model that would be a breakthrough if steady seller.  It would tie in exactly with the Bachmann 85, and allow a reasonably representative WCML layout to be attempted, given that the 100 AL6s and 40 AL5s were the two most numerous classes of AC electric until the Class 90s came on stream.  It would also allow a modeller to run electrics, diesels and steam together in the 1965-7 period, when the new AL6 locos and new Mk2 stock ran alongside the last steam locos in the Potteries and north-west. 

 

Whilst I agree that a ready to plant OHLE system would be a help to sales, I'm not sure this is such a deal breaker as some would suggest.  I think really we haven't had a consistent, joined up range of decent RTR stock which compliment each other in terms of eras to enable those modellers who don't wish to spend a lot of valuable time and money cutting, filing and drilling models to add massive amounts of third party details to their stock the chance to run a reasonably representative range of rolling stock on their layout.  I think the lack of a complementary range of locos is as big a hurdle as the lack of a full range of UK OHLE.

[ThaneofFife]

Some sensible lines of thought here. The description for Heljans pantograph as as a national grid pylon is superb but somewhat offensive to national grid pylons

 

I heard on the grapevine that Bachmann had planned to release the mk2e version of the aircon coaches only to swap the design to mk2f when they found out Hornby were well advanced on their own mk2e.now my understanding is that most of the mk2 aircon sets out of Euston were of the 2F ilk.im not so sure where the 2E's tended to work but what this could suggest is that no more AC locos would follow if they didnt haul the 2E stock.......who knows - maybe the 2F's will spawn another leccy and we can thank Hornby for getting in first with the 2E!

I actually think youd get lots of people buying if we had a good range of leccies with not a single piece of OHLE on their layout.i reckon the quality models would spur folks onto to make their own.i dont imagine many feel incentivsed to take this approach if all they have are a brace of 85s.the wcml was certainly much more than the 85.

[reevesthecat]

I thought it was the other way round with Hornby planning the mk2e until Bachmann announced the Mk2f last year.

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hello all,

 

One indicator of sales in OO is how quickly the model is duplicated in N. The Desiro has been done (and it's a lovely model) but there's no sign of an 85 so far.

 

I'm not sure about OO but Dapol's catenary posts certainly offer an excellent jumping off point for those who want to get into OHLE in N and there is also a decent 86 available too from Dapol, though I understand sales have not been as strong as might have been expected.

 

On our club layout Horseley Fields we use Desiros and Farish 90s alongside Dapol 86s; but in the absence of an RTR Pendolino we use the "Pretendolino" rake and a little modeller's licence - or our imagination, depending on your point of view!

 

I really think those who want more electrics to become available need to be prepared to buy those there are and imagine some of the other stock, rather than sit back and say "I'll only build that OHLE layout once a complete roster of locomotives and units I need for my period are available."

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[ThaneofFife]

I thought it was the other way round with Hornby planning the mk2e until Bachmann announced the Mk2f last year.

Nothings changed there though.

not sure whats to believe.....i thought Bachmann wanted to do the E and found out Hornby were well advanced with their E.so had to change their announcement last year to the F.lord knows how they find out whose planning what though......i just homed in the remote possibility of a connection or not between more electrics partnered up with the correct type of mk2 aircon.

 

although this is a Bachmann thread i can imagine an N gauge class 85 doing very well.

Law Junction is a good example of wcml modelling where you can get away without actual wires........

 

When we think about the Bachmann annual announcements it tends to be on locos coaches or wagons. Maybe they can build theyre own market by producing some rtr ohle given that Dapol have stalled with their do called "range" that consists of the bssic mast.

[reevesthecat]

Have heard of Bachmann measuring up some AC electrics but whether it was true or whether it was just to put the measurements in the pending drawer for the future or even if they were dependent on sales of the 85 if they went ahead I just don't know.

It is true to say though the list of any type of loco to be produced is getting smaller and smaller so I would think at some point someone will have another go!

Mark

[GordonC]

I always get very irritated by comments in the media where someone is portraying it as gospel that AC locos or units 'dont sell' like its some kind of golden rule. I think the fact is that the market hasn't really been tested in the same way that other areas have. We've got the Bachmann 85 which is simply a superb model. There's the Heljan 86, which was rather disappointing in the flesh but apart from that, on the locos side all the rest are 20+ years old mouldings. Now I dont buy 20+ year old diesels so why would I want to pay for something that is little better (decoration wise) than what was around 20 years so (and an awful lot cheaper). No, I'll keep my money til there's something better thats worth splashing out on.

As for the units, well has the AC unit market really been tested? There's the Desiro. Again, a fantastic model, but its pretty restricted in time period and do the modern DC units sell as well as the earlier ones? Bachmann and Hornby have had a series of older DC units that have flown off the shelves, while the only other modern one I can think of was the Hornby Class 466. Now judging by what has been released for that and that it wasn't followed up with a 465 suggests it didn't meet expectations. If the market for DC units is of an earlier period, it would really need an earlier AC unit to test the theory for AC units too. Possibly 304/305/308 or 302/307 or 309 or ideally 303/311!! With such a great Class 150 model I'd wonder whether Bachmann would look at the similar 317/318/455 families (and even 319/320/321/322) to see if any components could be shared or based on.

The Desiro rather than the 85 may have been shrunk to 'N' gauge as much for potential to produce some of the DC Desiros (see Model Rail for resprayed 350 as a 450). Shrinking the class 85 would mean you'd only be able to produce 85's and if the 'OO' gauge market is judged as risky, I cant see the 'N' gauge one being any safer!

I dont really see the lack of catenery being a problem, if it bothers anyone enough, they'll find a way to get something that looks right to them. If that means scratchbuilding then so be it. Personally, I'd be quite happy having lovely AC models zipping round a layout with or without catenery. In my eye's I'd see the overhead being there until one day it would be whether that was something ready to plant, kit built or scratchbuilt.

The thing that might make Bachmann the most likely to try another AC loco again might be shared components with its Class 85. Hornby models tend to be more expensive to start with, AC locos tend to be more expensive than diesel too - combining both those facts doesn't sound appealing! Heljan presumably got stung with the Class 86 (although I am surprised a RES liveried one never appeared, that would presumably have fitted the bodyshell time period too).

[ThaneofFife]

I dont really see the lack of catenery being a problem, if it bothers anyone enough, they'll find a way to get something that looks right to them. If that means scratchbuilding then so be it. Personally, I'd be quite happy having lovely AC models zipping round a layout with or without catenery. In my eye's I'd see the overhead being there until one day it would be whether that was something ready to plant, kit built or scratchbuilt.

 

 

much in the same way as Ben A remarked (3rd para) but from a slightly different angle than the one I think he was perhaps sdriving at.  Id rather have the decent models and let my imagination do the rest until I had started to build some decent catenary or added any wires. 

 

I'm not going to build catenary just to run 20-30 years models underneath it - no thank you. I'm happy to wait and if Bachmann say thats its no more electrics then I guess I will never get that WCML layout off the ground at all.  I wont compromise on the locos.

 

It would be good to survey every single purchaser/owner of a Class 85 to get their thoughts discounting those that only buy for displat cabinet reasons (collectors).

[mcowgill]

It would be good to survey every single purchaser/owner of a Class 85 to get their thoughts discounting those that only buy for displat cabinet reasons (collectors).

 

Well here's my response.  The Class 85 doesn't really fit my location/era (GEML 1980s onwards) although one made it into the LTS in the 1980s on a railtour, but I bought a BR Blue TOPS one immediately after it was released a) because I liked the look of it and more importantly I hoped that by buying one it would help improve the chances of a follow up that I could run.

 

In the meantime I'm sticking with Heljan/Hornby class 86 hybrids and Warship powered class 90s.

 

Martin

Edited March 17, 2014 by mcowgill

[kevpeo]

As someone who has already scratch-built the catenary for a layout, I only bought one 85!  Superb as it is.  In my period (late 80's/early 90's) that is all I can justify.  But I did buy 5 Heljan 86's!  Mainly after they were discounted mind.  And do you know what, after removing the roof tanks and the pylon(!), nobody points and laughs.  They are now the workhorses of the layout and run superbly.  What does this prove, properly nothing, but if an 81/2/3/4 were the next release I couldn’t justify more than one 81.  On the other hand, a decent running 90 or 87 would result in multiple purchases to replace a lot of older models.

 

Kev.

[GordonC]

much in the same way as Ben A remarked (3rd para) but from a slightly different angle than the one I think he was perhaps sdriving at.  Id rather have the decent models and let my imagination do the rest until I had started to build some decent catenary or added any wires. 

 

I'm not going to build catenary just to run 20-30 years models underneath it - no thank you. I'm happy to wait and if Bachmann say thats its no more electrics then I guess I will never get that WCML layout off the ground at all.  I wont compromise on the locos.

 

It would be good to survey every single purchaser/owner of a Class 85 to get their thoughts discounting those that only buy for displat cabinet reasons (collectors).

 

I'm not really in any rush myself either. At the moment, I probably fall into the dreaded 'collector' category, other than a testing plank I dont have a layout to run my stock on and it all lives in boxes unfortunately. Hopefully once my toddler daughter gets a little older, I'll actually get some free time to get down to layout building in the room set aside for one. Catenary will feature, but possibly not like a blanket over every length of track!

 

Until that point, I'll just be gathering stock and equipment as and when it becomes available.

 

Class 85s are right in the period and area I model (WCML ScR/LMR in mid 80's - mid 90's)

[rembrow]

I model/operate in the 1960/65 timeframe and was keen on first and second generation ac electrics, but gave up waiting for any to come from the model makers, apart from the Hornby Class 86, so I turned my attention to the DC kits range, where Class 81 and 85 were available as resin bodied models, with brass chassis and brass/whitemetal underframe detail. I produced a Class 85 with etched numbers and lion/wheel using the DC kits body and bogie detail, but with a cut and shut Hornby Class 87 chassis, which has the 5 pole skew wound motor. I used the DC kit Class 85 bogie sideframes and underframe detail, with the boxes 'fattened' up as they are rather 2 dimensional. Having been satisfied with the result I turned my attention to the Class 81. I had an old Trix version, which I rebuilt with a cut and shut Hornby 87 underframe, using the Trix bogie sideframes and underframe detail. Pleased with that result I dug out a Dapol Class 81 body that I had in the spares box. This was purchased from Dapol about 20 years ago, after they had bought the Trix/Lilliput UK tools and had run off some bodies of A2s/3s/4s and Cl 81s. This was a bare plastic body, however using the techniques I'd used on the other 2, and purchasing a Class 81 kit from DC kits for the  bogie, underframe and roof parts, I was able to build the second Class 81. Both 81s have had windows painstakingly cut and filed from Perspex for pressure fitting and secured with Johnsons Klear. When all that was done, Bachmann announced the Class 85, which was far better than my poor efforts, but I've kept my original made model and others that have been subsequently released, as they gave me enjoyment and I'm still pleased with the results. All 3 run well on the Hornby Class 87 modified chassis and all have Sommerfeldt overhead gear

[Matt]

My layout took an unexpected direction when Bach announced the 85 with a new high level electrified viaduct added above. If other electrics do arrive they will also be finding home with me.

[jonathan452]

Nothings changed there though.

i just homed in the remote possibility of a connection or not between more electrics partnered up with the correct type of mk2 aircon.

To cut a long story short-:

 

The West Coast air con sets (34 sets in total for the 1974 'Electric Scot' timetable) would have included both Mk2e's and 2f's, also the LMR allocated Mk2d FO's, FK's and BFK's (those which 'may not be heated by Class 55 locomotives').

 

It would only be in later years (Sectorisation and Virgin) that the West Coast (proper) sets became exclusively formed of Mk2f vehicles (aside from the catering and BG's - later DVT's).

 

Though the cross country sets that were electrically hauled on the West Coast included Mk2e's right up to the advent of the Voyagers.

 

Also as an aside the Liverpool Street to Norwich sets were mainly Mk2d from the introduction of the electric services in 1985/87 until displaced by Mk2f's (including DBSO's) in the early 1990's.

[gridwatcher]

As someone who has already scratch-built the catenary for a layout, I only bought one 85!  Superb as it is.  In my period (late 80's/early 90's) that is all I can justify.  But I did buy 5 Heljan 86's!  Mainly after they were discounted mind.  And do you know what, after removing the roof tanks and the pylon(!), nobody points and laughs.  They are now the workhorses of the layout and run superbly.  What does this prove, properly nothing, but if an 81/2/3/4 were the next release I couldn’t justify more than one 81.  On the other hand, a decent running 90 or 87 would result in multiple purchases to replace a lot of older models.

 

Kev.

At last.....! Thanks Kev though no one would be brave enough.

[ThaneofFife]

Good info from jonathon about the stock.

 

I also wonder where Hornby now stands with its class 86 and 87 as i dont think they feature in the current range.....Bachmann coukd look at that as them being discontinued and pave the way for an up to date replacement - i dont see Hornby having the minerals to retool one of their electrics given that they dont seem to have done much with them in recent years.the 90 is still available but is still poor compared to todays diesel models.

I think merl evans was behind the class 85 at Bachmann but who decided to produce the model i dont know.maybe new model choices is also down to merl in which case i hope he sticks around and brings us further superb ac's that are as good as the 85.

of course i doubt if Bachmann will go for another so soon if rapido trains take the plunge later this year.....

[wombatofludham]

Was it Merl Evans that I once read chose to model the 350 Desiro because he used them regularly and liked them?  Presumably the 85 is in the same vein?

 

In which case Merl, surely you liked the Class 86s when they worked the Cobblers, and the Class 310s? Go on, you did like them didn't you?  Of course you did...