Beyond the Class 85

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

According to the latest Bachmann times Merl Evans retired at Christmas, after more than 20 years with Bachmann.

 

Merl was responsible for the design of Palitoy's "Mainline" railways range in the 1970s and since joining Bachmann in the early 1990s has been responsible for many of the advances and improvements seen.

 

In 2010 he received the first Model Rail Lifetime Achievement Award.

 

I don't know whether Merl was behind the 350s or 85s but I know that the sales team also has a significant input into such decisions and that another key factor is, in the case of heritage vehicles, whether one still exists to measure, and in the case of modern vehicles, how cooperative the manufacturer is when it comes to drawings etc.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Ben A

[298]

As someone who has already scratch-built the catenary for a layout, I only bought one 85!  Superb as it is.  In my period (late 80's/early 90's) that is all I can justify.   

 

Likewise Kev, although for the same era you represent on Coppell we had a total of three blue 85's for Carstairs, two being 85/0's and a third as a tarted up 85101.

 

I think any manufacturer who wants to survive has to make more obscure prototypes and EMU's with more than 2 cars sell, all the big ticket stuff has already been done and isn't likely to be repeated to a higher standard that eclipses previous releases. Which also means that those with disposable income and a vague idea have to embrace such models as they arrive instead of waiting for the complete picture to be available, which includes overhead catenary. There are ways and means to accomplish this, but since I'm from the school of stringing your own I can't really comment on commercial methods that may or may not be in the pipeline, except to say "have a go"...

[wombatofludham]

No Blue Pullman was preserved yet despite earlier saying it would never produce one as long as their development teams had holes up their behinds, Bachmann eventually capitulated and made one of the defining models of recent times, which has sold well despite being a virtual one-hit wonder in terms of real life production and distribution, and in spite of the cost to purchase. None of the freak one-off diesels Heljan so love to churn out are preserved, yet they sell.  Only one 2-BIL exists but Hornby have turned one out to considerable acclaim.  LMS 10000 and 10001?  We've got two manufacturers models of two prototypes which thanks to the rabidly pro-kettle attitudes of 1960's enthusiasts, and even the nascent National Collection, never got preserved when clearly one should have been saved ahead of yet another Black 5.  How many Warships are preserved? Westerns? Class 22s?

 

The idea that number of preserved examples is in any way a proxy for popularity as a model is not borne out by reality.  It only serves to re-enforce that a lot of preservationists can't get on with one another so set up their own clique to buy another example of something already preserved which ends up rotting in a siding somewhere eventually to quietly end up being scrapped.

[Roy P]

More electrics may have been preserved if OHLE was available on the Great Central, Severn Valley, Bluebell etc.

Sorry! Couldn't resist. 

In all seriousness,and getting back to the original thought; I believe that at least in the longer term it is probably inevitable (if there are any model trains left at all) that there is a future for R-T-R electrics and I have my own personal favourites but I do wonder, as time passes and more old received wisdom is thrown out of the window, whether we will be left with what one might term a "traditional British model railway with wires" or something more like a "British Kato" urban train set? That would be a suggestion that the basic flavour of model railways in Bitain will change before a widespread acceptance of "Railway Modelling - but not as we knew it". 

This sort of thing may well happen but before it does, give me something to keep my AL5 company as it sits on display next to the NRM, and BCC specials.

All dressed up and nowhere to go!

 

RP

[wombatofludham]

On the preservation issue, the fact that one of each of the Classes 81-85 have been preserved is notable given that only 22 AL1's remained at the end, along with 8 AL2s, 15 AL3s, 10 AL4s and 40 AL5s.  So between 20% of Class 83s and 2.5% of Class 85s are preserved.  If 20% of Class 47s had been preserved we'd have over 100 of the rank things cluttering up the sidings of preserved lines across the country, not around 30.  Even with a bewilderingly excessive total of 47 in preservation, the Class 37 preserved fleet only approaches 15% of the original total, and many of them will be unlikely to become operational again.

 

A pointless exercise, but it further re-enforces the idea that numbers preserved is a proxy for model popularity isn't a sound basis on which to make assumptions when the numbers of locos in each class to begin with are vanishingly small.

[frobisher]

electrics don't sell..

Apart from the ones that do...

 

a good indicator is the number preserved, as to their popularity...

there are more preserved class 20/25/26/31/33/37/47/50's then there are preserved electric locomotives amongst all classes…, Indeed an almost equal number of Hydraulics.

The major difference is that diesels do not require additional infrastructure to run in a preservation. Until a preserved line can operate 25KV OHLE AC electrics fall into the category of being ballast.

 

Class 81,82,83,84,85 (1 each =5), class 86 (x4), Class 87 (x3) = total 12 (4 of which are threatened preservation existence)

There is 1 on the mainline, it's raison d'être is to be commodity to ensure the WCME expresses are allowed to run up the WCML from London as they have 100mph & acceleration.

You have noticed that 86's and 87's are still in active service (a lot exported)..?

 

As for EMU's preservation has almost forgotten they existed.

AC units maybe, but there's a hell of a lot of 3rd rail units preserved.

 

They are not popular.

Citation needed...

 

Out of interest how popular are the Class 76/77 models from Heljan ?

Ask Olivia's as they were the commissioning party...

 

I think the only electric locomotive which could possibly respond to demand would be the class 89, but even thats a gamble, unless one of the early ones went mainline.

Erm, there is only one class 89, and it had a surprisingly long mainline service career for a unique prototype. It's also preserved now.

 

Yes, it would be a popular model based on the response from quite a few seen on here.

Edited March 19, 2014 by frobisher

[ThaneofFife]

I think Bachmann only need to produce one more stablemate for the 85 to finally kick the many misconceptions about electrics into touch and then i would hope to see us on a bit of roll....

[ThaneofFife]

Ask Olivia's as they were the commissioning party

If all such questions were not posted on fora such as this they would be poorer places for it. That way you get more contributions and it generally brings new dimensions into the discussions. Its as bad as me saying when will Dapol release more OHLE only for some clever lurking sausage to pop their head over the parapet to tell me to go do some modelling instead of wishlisting.comments like this really....well,they dont do anything really.

 

In order to at least try and offer a reply to the question yes only olivias will ever hold the real key here but fwiw i dont think the models have done particularly well.ive yet to see any on the exhibition circuits too.

i dont have any facts links or citations just my personal take on them.they are expensive and i believe some criticism has been aimed at them on livery and detailing.....also the MSW line is very restrictive in terms of numbers of modellers who want to depict the route.

I thought Dapol had initimated they were looking at rtp woodhead overhead masts to compliment the models.....thats all gone quiet now so who knows....

personally i think the cl89 ought to be one of the very last AC classes to get attention-maybe i just dont see the appeal or see beyond its limited time frame and operation.

Edited March 19, 2014 by ThaneofFife

[Adam1701D]

A decent 87 or 90 would probably sell far better than the 85, as there are many more sexy liveries they could carry. Part of the reason that AC electrics have not been big sellers in the past is that manufacturers sometimes make rather odd choices. I'm sure a 319 would have sold far better than the 350.

[ChrisH-UK]

As for EMU's preservation has almost forgotten they existed.

 

They are not popular.

 

 

Space is a big issue for EMUs in preservation, a loco = 1 vehicle, a DMU = 1 or 2 vehicles as a start maybe adding a third later, Southern EMU = 2-4 vehicles (so EPBs and HAPs are easier to find homes than CIGs or VEPs) most other EMUs are 3 or 4 vehicles and that's a lot of space.

 

Electrics in general may not sell as well as diesels because there were so many more diesels and there aren't many scenarios where an electric layout would not also have diesels so comparing the basic sales numbers is pretty pointless imho. I'd love to see a new AC electric loco and all things considered my pick would be a new 90 based on numbers and liveries possible, not sure I could afford it but I'd love to see it.

 

I am also wondering if the same discussion about electrics was taking place about diesels 50-60 years ago when it was steam all the way

 

In truth we can speculate all day and all night but only the manufacturer understands the economics well enough to know whether a product has met or fallen short of its targets, yes their ultimate goal is to sell everything as quickly as possible but the market is rarely that simple.

 

 

Chris H

[brushman47544]

A decent 87 or 90 would probably sell far better than the 85, as there are many more sexy liveries they could carry. Part of the reason that AC electrics have not been big sellers in the past is that manufacturers sometimes make rather odd choices. I'm sure a 319 would have sold far better than the 350.

 

I actually think the Class 85 was a good choice given that Heljan had recently introduced its Class 86 and Bachmann would not have wanted to duplicate that, particularly if the decision to go for an 85 was taken before the Heljan 86 reached the shops. The 85 has longevity and could be operated alongside steam and diesels - isn't the steam/diesel transition period supposed to be the most popular modeling era.

 

As for electric units, most have a much more limited area of operation than diesel units and are mostly 4-car rather than 1 or 2-car dmus. This means they will cost more but are likely to have a more limited appeal. The 350 was in my view a good choice - as well as the SWT 450s, presumably new cab tooling would allow other types of Desiro to be modeled as well. Yes the 319 would potentially have opened up the Mk3 based EMUs, but Bratchell Models produce them and Bachmann may well consider the market is not big enough to support an RTR model as well.

[GordonC]

electrics don't sell..

 

a good indicator is the number preserved, as to their popularity...

there are more preserved class 20/25/26/31/33/37/47/50's then there are preserved electric locomotives amongst all classes…, Indeed an almost equal number of Hydraulics.

 

Class 81,82,83,84,85 (1 each =5), class 86 (x4), Class 87 (x3) = total 12 (4 of which are threatened preservation existence)

There is 1 on the mainline, it's raison d'être is to be commodity to ensure the WCME expresses are allowed to run up the WCML from London as they have 100mph & acceleration.

 

 

As for EMU's preservation has almost forgotten they existed.

 

They are not popular.

 

Out of interest how popular are the Class 76/77 models from Heljan ?

 

I think the only electric locomotive which could possibly respond to demand would be the class 89, but even thats a gamble, unless one of the early ones went mainline.

 

I suspect a 303/4/5/6/8 may be a vote winner as it can run alongside popular LMR models in many variations / permutations, but think some pre grouping early 1920s coaches (with life that went to the late 60's) would probably jump the queue as they are lower cost and many more livery / regional population appeal and is an unexplored market gap, given the recent and successful forays into L&Y/GCR/MR/SECR/LSWR/GER/GNR & GWR locos some coaches to match can't be far behind, LMS push pull stock is a bit overdue and a GW Railmotor has to be on the horizon at some point.

 

The numbers of real ones surviving isn't a good indicator of popularity. Classes 81-84 were pretty small classes with only 60 built in total or 61 if you include the 89. There were 50 Class 58's, how many of them are preserved? Or looking at it another way, how many diesel classes of 10 or 15 built have any left? There was 44 Class 15's built and only one survive. Even popular classes like Warships - 2 (of 38 and 33).

 

And thats for diesels that don't need overhead to actually be used. Can you imagine the Health and Safety risk assessments these days to have 25kV overhead on a (generally volunteer-run) preserved line??

 

The AC locos survival rate, even as static bodyshells with little chance of running again is pretty good in comparison to some of the diesels!

[GordonC]

If all such questions were not posted on fora such as this they would be poorer places for it. That way you get more contributions and it generally brings new dimensions into the discussions. Its as bad as me saying when will Dapol release more OHLE only for some clever lurking sausage to pop their head over the parapet to tell me to go do some modelling instead of wishlisting.comments like this really....well,they dont do anything really.

 

In order to at least try and offer a reply to the question yes only olivias will ever hold the real key here but fwiw i dont think the models have done particularly well.ive yet to see any on the exhibition circuits too.

i dont have any facts links or citations just my personal take on them.they are expensive and i believe some criticism has been aimed at them on livery and detailing.....also the MSW line is very restrictive in terms of numbers of modellers who want to depict the route.

I thought Dapol had initimated they were looking at rtp woodhead overhead masts to compliment the models.....thats all gone quiet now so who knows....

personally i think the cl89 ought to be one of the very last AC classes to get attention-maybe i just dont see the appeal or see beyond its limited time frame and operation.

 

I'd perhaps disagree with that about the Class 89. I think thats looking ripe for being picked off by Heljan with their MO - Stylish, unique prototype, large express passenger loco, niche model, a handful of liveries they could produce in one go. With some of the others they've produced it'd seem a natural progression at some point - Lion, Kestrel, Falcon, DP2 etc.

 

Of the others, I'd think the 81, 86, 87, 90 could all have a good chance, depending on how they go then possibly 91 and 92

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I am also wondering if the same discussion about electrics was taking place about diesels 50-60 years ago when it was steam all the way... 

There wasn't the public space like the internet to record such discussions 50 years ago. (And 60 years ago there were very, very few diesels in the UK.) It was a larger hobby then, in terms of the customer base, though there was probably no more money in it! Look at what got produced RTR by the mid 1960s: very little really even for steam with perhaps 25 classes of loco available, and a limited number of truly common and numerous types necessary for modelling among all these such as the 'Jinty', 3F, N2, Std4MTT and 8F. (No Black 5, B1, Hall, just one 0-6-0.) As such both diesel and electric traction was well represented: H-D had an 08, 20, 28, 55, 81, Triang a 31, 37, 77, 81, Playcraft a 21/29/nightmare, Trix an 81, Kirdon I think had the LMS twins available at some point; those are what come to mind. The class 81 was strangely popular (perhaps the only AC class for which good drawings were freely available?), but leaving that aside there was a reasonable spread of medium power diesel types.

 

The modeller focus was on kit and scratchbuilding, very limited use of typically only the better RTR items. It was a real problem getting a good drive into bogie traction too, which probably inhibited some from pursuing what was then 'modern image'.

...Electrics in general may not sell as well as diesels because there were so many more diesels and there aren't many scenarios where an electric layout would not also have diesels so comparing the basic sales numbers is pretty pointless... 

To the customer, but not the manufacturer. They by necessity look for return on investment. What's the compelling reason to invest in something that gives a poorer return than placing the money elsewhere? The only motivation I can see is if it generates significant follow on sales of items which do make a good return.

[James90012]

I think it is difficult to say whether the 85 has been a 'failure' or not, but the fact that even discounted they are still around £80 (compared to the dramatic drop in prices for HJ86) suggests there is still reasonable expectation among retailers to sell at this price. So long as the models sell eventually, it can be said to have been a success. 

Either way I don't think Bachmann are done with ACs yet - and as I said in the wishlist thread, I have a feeling that we will see an 87 from them shortly. 

[ChrisH-UK]

To the customer, but not the manufacturer. They by necessity look for return on investment. What's the compelling reason to invest in something that gives a poorer return than placing the money elsewhere? The only motivation I can see is if it generates significant follow on sales of items which do make a good return.

My comment about the comparison being pointless was aimed at the customer, I then went on to say that only the manufacturer understands the complex economics.

Only a hopeless optimist would expect a model to be 100% pre-sold, they know most of the return comes quickly and then what's left stretches out over time. They know they are taking a chance with every new model they produce.

[Andy Hayter]

My tuppence worth as someone who has considered buying UK overhead electrics, but has not - but has bought and run continental versions.

 

The collector will buy these models - just because they are there.

 

The train set purchaser might buy them. They will note the lack of overhead supply equipment, but probably ignore it. If it were available off the shelf they would then curse it, since each derailment (which are probably frequent) becomes a logistics nightmare extricating stock from under the wire and getting it back on the track again (I know - an 8 coach articulated TGV set is an absolute nightmare). However they are only likely to buy if they see, or have seen, such locomotives in operation - not necessarily the same class, just overhead electrics. This will create a geographic isolation for many train set operators and means models will not sell perhaps so well.

 

The semi serious modeller would buy but will be concerned about the lack of overhead supply equipment and will wait (forever) for it to appear as a plug and play item from their model shop.

 

The serious modeller will not be worried by the lack of overhead power supply, he can build it himself. However the lack of breadth in the locomotive range will put him off starting perhaps.

 

So from 4 groups (and I do realise that in the real world there is a continuum and not just simple pigeon holes) 1 will buy, 1 may buy depending on where they live and 2 will probably not buy - for very different reasons. And yes, I am sure in every group there will be exceptions. The potential market is therefore potentially halved compared with a steam or diesel locomotive.

 

That I think is the challenge for a model manufacturer. The question is how to break the circle? Making more models available against a background of slower sales than other types, would take a very brave marketing manager - and could easily be a career limiting move. Making overhead catenary and masts (easy to write but would be a nightmare to do) might seem attractive but could alienate the train setters, will probably not be of interest to the collector and unless of high quality would be rejected by the serious modeller.

[Titan]

Well I guess of the AC EMU's, the least risky to introduce would be a Class 309. So popular that there are two preserved, and a lot of common parts to existing mk1 coaches. You could even start off with a two car unit, allowing the all important low entry level price tag, and if you wanted to do the later 4 car versions in NSE/Jaffa cake just slightly modify the existing hauled coaches (just like BR did!) which I think would then only need underframe/glazing alterations to add to them. It would surely be the least expensive AC EMU to tool up and test the water with!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The overhead electrification parts provision for the UK modeller needs a sea change. It doesn't work as a regular manufactured item, I humbly suggest from the evidence before us. But then neither does layout wiring, ballasted track and scenically treated layouts, to identify a few things that modellers do by ther own efforts in order to get a working model railway together.

 

Suggests to me that there is a niche market here for someone. Is the tech mature enough for sale of a 3D printer kit with a bundle of patterns ready to print to make a selection of the most common components for example?

[ThaneofFife]

Suggests to me that there is a niche market here for someone. Is the tech mature enough for sale of a 3D printer kit with a bundle of patterns ready to print to make a selection of the most common components for example?

an idea i put to Dapol some years back although not from a 3D printing angle......basic masts and packs of parts to make up different gantry styles.  youd still not satisfy everyone but then i think the people that might say they wouldnt be satisfied would be the sort of folk who are off making their own anyway so we wouldnt necessarily have to consider their opinions in this context........

Edited March 19, 2014 by ThaneofFife

[sub39h]

I'm another one that would love to see more AC electrics. I have a Heljan Class 86 and would purchase a Class 85 but it is totally the wrong era for me, however good a model it might be. I admire those that purchase models that are not suitable for their needs with the hope that supporting them will lead to models they do require but I do not have that sort of disposable income at present. 

 

As I have mentioned in another thread recently I thought the Class 350 was an odd choice of EMU. Don't get me wrong it looks a cracking model but is a relatively new EMU with a relatively limited area of operation. I would have thought other families of DMU/EMU would have been a better choice - Networker based on Bachmanns 166 perhaps? Or the Mk3s based on their excellent Class 150? I also mentioned in that thread that starting with an older family means they can start selling them in old liveries for which they do not need to seek permission, or use the sales of these to subsidise the reduced margins they might see on newer liveries with royalties to be paid. The fact that they have been around for longer means they are more likely to be of use to a greater section of the market as well. 

 

What I find even more odd is that Hornby released a brand new and up-to-date Mk3 DVT but doesn't have any locomotives of anything like the same standard to use with it. Surely not even Hornby are this short sighted - they must have had plans for AC electrics when that was approved which perhaps never came to fruition. Similarly they must see that the Class 91 doesn't cut it anymore next to the brilliant HST - and considering they've released ECML HSTs in the form of GNER, East Coast (ex-NatEx) and Swallow livery with ER running numbers they must have expected that the purchasers of those would like a new 225 set to go along with it. 

 

I agree with some of the above posters that OHLE may enhance the demand for AC electrics, but as I have mentioned before I think it is far more reasonable to expect those who wish to have AC electrics to run them without catenery, rather than expecting that if catenery was available without locomotives the catenery would somehow spur on the market. Clearly it's absurd both financially and in terms of time to erect catenary on a layout without any AC electric locos, whereas a bit of imagination in the absense of OHLE or a diesel towing an electric loco in an area without knitting is still entirely appropriate (read "easier"). 

 

I also agree that it is probable that as the manufacturers run out of new models to make that AC electrics will become the next thing on their list. Let's just hope it's sooner rather than later. 

Edited March 19, 2014 by sub39h

[frobisher]

As I have mentioned in another thread recently I thought the Class 350 was an odd choice of EMU. Don't get me wrong it looks a cracking model but is a relatively new EMU with a relatively limited area of operation.

I think one of the motivations of the 350 was that it could be a 450 with very few manufacturing changes.

 

What I find even more odd is that Hornby released a brand new and up-to-date Mk3 DVT but doesn't have any locomotives of anything like the same standard to use with it.

There is the new and improved 67, but yup everything else is not to the same standard.

[GordonC]

Well I guess of the AC EMU's, the least risky to introduce would be a Class 309. So popular that there are two preserved, and a lot of common parts to existing mk1 coaches. You could even start off with a two car unit, allowing the all important low entry level price tag, and if you wanted to do the later 4 car versions in NSE/Jaffa cake just slightly modify the existing hauled coaches (just like BR did!) which I think would then only need underframe/glazing alterations to add to them. It would surely be the least expensive AC EMU to tool up and test the water with!

 

There is also the Class 317/318/455 family. Have you noticed the similarity between the Class 150/2 bodyshells and the Class 318 in particular? Yes, of course there are details that are different and the underframe is quite different not to mention the middle car, but on seeing some of the conversions of Sprinters cut and shut they can be remarkably convincing! I cant see a Class 318 being produced without the other varieties to boost sales

[frobisher]

Well I guess of the AC EMU's, the least risky to introduce would be a Class 309.

309's would be popular given comments hereabouts, but as a class it's a nightmare for tooling up.

 

You could even start off with a two car unit, allowing the all important low entry level price tag, and if you wanted to do the later 4 car versions in NSE/Jaffa cake just slightly modify the existing hauled coaches (just like BR did!) which I think would then only need underframe/glazing alterations to add to them. It would surely be the least expensive AC EMU to tool up and test the water with!

As built, you have the 309/1, 2 and 3 (well AM9 and what ever the pre-TOPS scheme was but these are the TOPS codes)

 

309/1 DMBSK+BDTS (8 in total)

309/2 BDTC+MBSK+TRB+DTC (8 in total)

309/3 BDTC+MBSK+TSO+DTC (7 in total)

 

7 different vehicle types!

 

As you'll see, the two car has no common vehicles with the four car units. After refurbishment you have the following formations

 

309/1 DMBS+TS+TC+BDTS (TS and TC converted from hauled stock - 8 in total)

309/3 BDTC+MBS+TS+DTS (some TS converted from hauled stock when replacing TRB - 15 in total)

 

Plus another 7 different vehicle types potentially (though as you say, externally changing window mouldings might cover this).

 

And somewhere in the middle you have the augmented 309/1's with TSO and TCK, and the reduced 309/2's lacking the TRB. The TSO and TCK would need a end tooling change at minimum from the MK1 hauled stock versions (TSO and CK).

[ThaneofFife]

There is the new and improved 67, but yup everything else is not to the same standard.

indeed and it was a complete mystery why they thought they could seel a brand new detailed DVT in with their old Class 90 (see what I did there?  ) as a train pack.......I would have thought the 90 would have been retooled by Hornby by now TBH.