Lack of Modern Rolling Stock

[fender]

I realise that many people (myself included) are drawn to the steam era, and that much of the rest of the UK modelling scene is taken up by BR Blue and sectorisation, but I for one would love to make a thoroughly up-to-date layout. there must be many others like me but, for example, just travelling around the South East, there are hardly any models of current stock.

 

outside of a few specialists, there are virtually no examples of modern rolling stock being produced. a model of the modern scene in the South East is simply not possible with RTR stock. I am not as familiar with the rest of the country but a glance through the products available from Bachmann and Hornby shows no 'modern' items other than Bachmann's 350, and a few examples such as the Javelin, Voyager and Eurostar, which cannot be modelled unless you have an enormous amount of space or a train-set roundy roundy.

 

has it always been this way? have the manufacturers just kept at what they know sold well in the past, and perhaps been burned by a couple of bad sellers of more modern items?

 

not knowing how easy or hard it is to produce a new model, I recognise I am on dodgy ground here, but surely a modern 2, 3 or 4 car EMU is much easier to make than a detailed steam loco?

 

I'm sure there are some valid reasons for there not being more modern models, but I'm just wondering what they are.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's all about demand. Manufacturers will typically consult with retailers about what their customers are asking for, and if the 'wishlist' survey is an indicator, what they will be told is steam era subjects, followed by 1960 - 90 BR.  The manufacturer will simply 'follow the money': if there are 10 folk wanting a steam era model for every one wanting a contemporary subject, the latter will barely get a look in. Investment to develop and produce a model is much the same for any given class of product; which would you go for if the anticipated sales are 10 of these sold for every one of those?

 

That ratio was just for illustrative purposes. The last time I quickly 'did the numbers' on relative interest by volume of votes, steam era : BR 60 - 90 : contemporary, the result for the top 50 items voted for came out near as you like 100:10:1. The contemporary item identified got a model, nuclear flask wagon. I am not saying that ratio is accurate, for example the BR 60 - 90 vote is depressed by the availability - sometimes from multiple mfrs - of most of the major loco classes, but as a finger in the wind it is  an indicator.

[RJS1977]

There either are or have been other modern models for the south east available including

 

Class 165 (Bachmann)

Class 466 Networker (Hornby)

Class 170 (Bachmann)

HST (Hornby) - though I still think Hornby need to reintroduce a budget version of this.*

Class 90 (Hornby)

Class 91, Mk4s and DVT (Hornby)

 

On the freight side, 59s, 60s, 66s, 70s, 86s, 90s and 92s are or have been available, along with suitable rolling stock.

 

So I think the gap you're really thinking of is the lack of modern EMU stock, barring the 350, Javelin, Eurostar and aforementioned Networker. RTR EMUs have always been a rarity - in fact the Hornby Networker was (I think) only the third RTR EMU to be released. I think the manufacturers are still feeling their way a little bit on this. If the 350 sells well, I would anticipate Bachmann releasing the 450 & variants and maybe looking at doing some other classes (the Electrostar probably being the next most common unit in service so maybe the next obvious one to go for).

 

However remember that with 4-car sets now in the £150-200 price bracket, that's a lot of money to tie up for manufacturers and retailers if a model doesn't sell well.

 

 

* My view is that both Hornby and Bachmann should each incorporate in their budget ranges one of each of the following:

 

An inter-city unit (e.g. HST, Voyager etc).

A "local" multiple unit.

A freight loco (66, 70 etc) and suitable wagons.

 

I'm sure plenty of young people want to model what they can see running on their local railways - come on manufacturers, make it a (little) easier for them!

[Dungrange]

I think it's pretty much where you live and the lack of electric motive power. 

 

To represent 'current' diesel powered passenger units up in Scotland only requires Class 156 (Hornby), Class 158 (Bachmann) and Class 170 (Bachmann).  True, all of these models have been around for a while, although Bachmann are to be upgrading the Class 158.  If you have more space, a Voyager (Bachmann) or HST (Hornby) can complete the scene.  It's only if you want to model one of the electric operated lines that there is a shortage of RTR passenger stock (eg Classes 314, 322 or 334 are all absent).  As for loco hauled freight stock, the current scene is pretty well catered for in my opinion, especially by Bachmann.

 

Regards

 

David

[m0rris]

I think the main problem is the dominance of multiple units. "Back in the day" manufacturers were tooling up locos, which were used on a wide variety of traffic, and the wagons/coaches separately... They'd pile them high and people would lap them up, you'd buy your rakes of coaches and wagons and then fill your boots with locos to haul them. Multiple units on the other hand cost more to produce, more to buy and take up more space which is probably why they are so often neglected. How many depot layouts have seen based on DMUs/EMUs vs tradition 'locos'?

 

Since the 1990s, 125s and 225s apart, loco hauled services have become the exception rather than the norm and modellers are still looking back in time towards BR Steam/BR diesels. Tooling up multiple units remains a risk as it still involves a big investment and can quite easily 'flop' like some of Hornby's recent efforts. I think the trick they are missing is going after 'families' such as the Electrostars and Desiros by making molds that can be adapted to produce different variants...

[The Black Hat]

The DMU scene has been relatively well catered for previously, with models available of 142, 156, 158, 165/166, 168/170. Some of these have aged better than others. Now, with DCC, lights and sounds modern units need to match the standard for which the locomotives and stock has developed and become very accurate.

 

While Bachmann is redoing the class 158, Realtracks 144 shows what can be done for a modern model of a unit. Even being just a 144 it has won the model of the year for the category of units, and has developed a loyal following. Its accuracy, ability and detail gives an impression of a great model, happily able to stand alongside your DCC class 66, or 67. Hornby have the 153 as their attempt, but the 142 and 156 need retiring to train sets where they belong. Realtrack are staking the claim to modeling the former, but the latter would sell really well if a new up to date and standards model was produced. Working across the country and in liveries galore the 156 would be an instant success with high demand. Bachmann have still the 170 and 165 but these might take a place in a cue before the next model due to get the upgrade if they plummed for a 156. The Voyager model is good enough for now, while the 150 is being revampt to take into account that an engine block isnt needed in a unit.

 

Overall this fleet of excellent 144/143, 158, 153 models joined by 142, 156, 170, 150 and Voyager that you can upgrade gives a good spread of the country. Right from South Wales to Northern England and areas of Scotland, the fleet is there to cover it, especially if you get the releases that corrispond with the area.  

 

However, with diesel locos having been covered well and 1st Gen units being so treated by and large, modern image has a strong development area that gives the units have an area to play in future products that would give a good return. While the class 156 is the obvious choice for the next upgrade, a class 170 would also give good returns and offer a greater area of the midlands to be covered. Really once a unit is done what is needed is lots of releases of liveries. Rather than just two, like the Bachmann 158, the Realtrack 144 has it right giving people the chance to get many as you often need more than one of the same type to make an area look accurate.

 

With regards EMUS I think part of the problem here is that they can become specific to certain routes. The slam door stock was more spread out, whereas a class 319 is used only on the Thameslink route. Even if it would be popular... Similarly, networkers have been a generic model due for an upgrade while the 321 probably is the best bet, with others around Edinburgh and some in Yorkshire. Also the lack of OHLE, or the need for 3rd rail makes using a DMU model easier.

 

Things have improved for the area and the Realtrack 144 shows what can be done. Expansion here would be great for the modern scene, but the companies are under pressure for transition scene, AC electrics and the 70/80/90s period which is growing in popularity.... so lets hope it happens quicker than we anticipate.

['CHARD]

To represent 'current' diesel powered passenger units up in Scotland only requires Class 156 (Hornby), Class 158 (Bachmann) and Class 170 (Bachmann).  True, all of these models have been around for a while, although Bachmann are to be upgrading the Class 158.  If you have more space, a Voyager (Bachmann) or HST (Hornby) can complete the scene.  It's only if you want to model one of the electric operated lines that there is a shortage of RTR passenger stock (eg Classes 314, 322 or 334 are all absent).  

 

David, I think you have inadvertantly hit on one of the problems, namely that the current scene is only ever today's snapshot.

 

If you reckon Class 322s are part of the Scottish picture, you might be surprised to know that they have been away since August 2011, working out of Leeds for Northern.

['CHARD]

Dare I also suggest that part of the problem is that with the modern railway we have an overwhelmingly crushing sense of the mundane, in terms of operational variety. 

 

The relative ubiquity of Classes 375, 377, 379, 380, 444, 450, 455, and so on means that to most of us they will simply never have anything special about them.  To find something unusual, you are looking for Class 67 + MkIII + DVT (which are available), or things like the Class 180.  This is a rare class of only 14 units.  The problem is, they are 5-car, and would therefore attract a hefty price tag that would no doubt evaporate what scant interest they actually generate.

 

I think, overwhelmingly, the glamour of the loco powered railway wins out every time.  The reason DMUs from that period can sell in economic quantities is because they represent bit-part actors that many modellers of the old school railway regard as essential in that capacity.

[newbryford]

  It's only if you want to model one of the electric operated lines that there is a shortage of RTR passenger stock (eg Classes 314, 322 or 334 are all absent).  As for loco hauled freight stock, the current scene is pretty well catered for in my opinion, especially by Bachmann.

 

Regards

 

David

 

And a 318 or a 380......

 

B*ggered really!

 

Cheers,

Mick

[kevpeo]

It does seem strange that nobody has had a crack at the big two (IMHO) emu's. With a bit of clever tooling you have -

 

the mk3's

 

455,317,318,319,320,321,322.

Two third rail classes and a LOT of liveries to go for, as well as a good spread around the country(s). Although Bratchell has already taken some of the market.

 

or the 'peps'

 

313,314,315,507,508.

Again lots of colours to go for as well as a resonable spread.

 

Scotland - 314. North West - 507/8. ECML South - 313. Anglia - 315. WCML South - 313/508. Southern - 313/508 (twice!)

And the only kit ever done was the MTK one, which was ,erm ................

 

Kev.

[fender]

thanks for your replies.

 

I can see that the modern scene may be a little mundane but so was the drab BR blue when it first appeared, compared to the romance (smells and inefficiency already forgotten) of steam, or so I have read many times (I am too young to know!)

 

after the railway is presumably converted to fully automatic ubiquitous EMUs in the next few decades, will we start hankering after our Electrostars?

 

also, I can see that some units are confined to specific routes, but in reality most modellers don't model a prototype religiously. I'm sure a couple of Southern/FCC/SE/SW-liveried units would attract a fair bit of business from people who want to model something generic in the South East.

 

perhaps 3D printing will render this problem moot in the next few years.

[Glorious NSE]

With regards EMUS I think part of the problem here is that they can become specific to certain routes. The slam door stock was more spread out, whereas a class 319 is used only on the Thameslink route

 

So far...

[Boris]

I think personally that part of the lack of demand is that when we run model railroad layouts we want to do the interesting parts of railroad operation like loco run rounds and switching rather than the mundane every day things like DMU arrives, crew possibly change ends, DMU departs and unless you are one of the few people who has their PC attached to their layout and running an extended IECC simulator it's not actually that interesting to do more than once or twice.  I've got to say though one of the most fun things I did when I had a permanent layout set up was to run a complete days operation real time, thankfully the early pick-up was timetabled to come in at a sensible 8:30 but it was fun to stop watching the cricket because the block bells (on the PC) were calling attention as there was a train due, only did it a couple of times before I got married and the domestic authority didn't approve but it was quite interesting anyway.

[Glorious NSE]

I can see that the modern scene may be a little mundane but so was the drab BR blue when it first appeared, compared to the romance (smells and inefficiency already forgotten) of steam, or so I have read many times (I am too young to know!)

 

People have always modelled "now", and despite what you might call the established hobby's bewilderment with those folk's choice, they continue to do so - way back when I was a teen starting in modelling "now" was seen as something boring, mundane, and not worthy of being modelled by the establishment - fast forward 25 years and despite all the changes on the real thing "now" is still regarded in exactly the same way, whilst folk flock to modelling a nostalgic "then" that they'd thought was boring when it was "now"...

 

Go figure.

[wombatofludham]

thanks for your replies.

 

I can see that the modern scene may be a little mundane but so was the drab BR blue when it first appeared, compared to the romance (smells and inefficiency already forgotten) of steam, or so I have read many times (I am too young to know!)

 

after the railway is presumably converted to fully automatic ubiquitous EMUs in the next few decades, will we start hankering after our Electrostars?

 

Excellent point - I'm of the age who can remember the introduction of the HSTs and the extraordinary reactions by some enthusiasts to their replacing the Deltics and Westerns.  I'll never forget grown men actually crying on TV news when the last Deltic arrived at KX, and despite being about 14 and a railway enthusiast I recall thinking "grow up and get a life".  The railway press was full of complaints about HST seats not lining up with windows, smelly brakes, hard seats, fixed formations leading to overcrowding, cramped layouts and how boring they were, completely ignoring the fact they were hugely popular with the travelling public, the real reason for the railway, and a technical tour-de-force.  Fast forward 30 or so years, and the HSTs are partly replaced by Voyagers.  Cue loads of wailing and upset over the loss of the "iconic" HST, and how awful the Voyagers are with smelly loos, hard seats, overcrowding and poor layouts...

 

Rail enthusiasts are a fickle bunch at the best of times and often have enormous difficulty in seeing a broad picture or beyond their personal prejudices.

 

 

[Boris]

I remember when a Voyager came to the NYMR diesel gala many years ago and the first thing that happened was you walked in the door and smelt toilets.  At that point Bombardier were still doing the cleaning/servicing of them and it was quite worrying that even the manufacturer couldn't get rid of the smell even when new.  And then of course the damn thing got to Pickering and was crammed to the gunnels with people, I remember one person wondering at the time whether this was a sign of things to come...

['CHARD]

I remember when a Voyager came to the NYMR diesel gala many years ago and the first thing that happened was you walked in the door and smelt toilets.  At that point Bombardier were still doing the cleaning/servicing of them and it was quite worrying that even the manufacturer couldn't get rid of the smell even when new. 

 

Bombardier still is doing the servicing and cleaning.  And the trains still smell overpoweringly of stewed organic compounds.

[johnlambert]

I'm sure it was ever thus, in terms of the South Eastern-based modeller wanting to buy RTR versions of what could be seen on their local railway.

 

From around 1981 to the mid 1990s (which defines my childhood) I'm fairly sure there wasn't a single EMU in the Hornby catalogue and precious few DMUs too.  As a child it seemed that a vast tranche of railway operation was ignored by the one manufacturer who represented the entire model railway world.  But would I have bought a multiple unit anyway?  Money was tight so any new locos or stock were a rare treat, I suspect I'd have rather had a loco or coach than a multiple unit although I did like the look of Hornby's Pacer (no accounting for taste!).

 

With the benefit of hindsight and maturity of having a little understanding of commercial realities I can see why Hornby didn't fill the catalogue with EPBs, VEPs, CIGs and so-on.  But I also understand the frustration of not being able to buy a model of the train you travel on every day.

[Dungrange]

If you reckon Class 322s are part of the Scottish picture, you might be surprised to know that they have been away since August 2011, working out of Leeds for Northern.

 

Thanks for pointing that out - I wasn't aware that the 380s are now used on the North Berwick branch in place of the Class 322s: I don't seem to get out as much since my daughter was born a couple of years ago.  However, the 380s are simply another class that is not available ready to run.  In fact I don't think any of the EMUs that operate or have operated in Scotland in recent years are available ready to run.

 

I think it's just DMUs - Yes, EMUs - No

 

Regards

 

David

[sub39h]

I would certainly love to see RTR EMUs. 313s and 365s are certainly on my wish list. I would love to see a new Class 91 and 225 set as well. 

 

People might say that EMUs and DMUs are boring to operate, but for the most part I think we all want to model things from our childhood, when we first took an interest in model trains. I do find modern trains interesting, having been born in the 80s and falling in love with trains and engineering as a child I want to recreate something local (ECML) from around the early 90s. The first train I decided to get when I returned to the hobby is one that I wanted as a child - a full HST rake. It is difficult to ignore the romance of steam and I do have a B17 in my fleet and hope to get an A3 Flying Scotsman and a super detail A4 Mallard for railtours on my layout, but ultimately what gets me is trains from my childhood.

 

The most modern and up to date is all well and good but the problem with that is that you'll have to keep changing your stock to keep up with what is "now". Modelling something in the past means you can decide what your stock is going to be and stick to it. 

[Talltim]

1st generation DMUs were pretty much all 2 or three cars, with the odd 4 car or longer. 2nd generation DMUs are mainly 2 car, a few three car or longer. Modern DMUs do tend to be a bit longer. However EMUs pretty much start at 3 car, with the vast majority being 4 car. You don't tend to get many economies of scale with longer units, typically a 4 car unit will have three different body shells.

[sub39h]

1st generation DMUs were pretty much all 2 or three cars, with the odd 4 car or longer. 2nd generation DMUs are mainly 2 car, a few three car or longer. Modern DMUs do tend to be a bit longer. However EMUs pretty much start at 3 car, with the vast majority being 4 car. You don't tend to get many economies of scale with longer units, typically a 4 car unit will have three different body shells.

 

Economies of scale surely don't work this way in the model railway world. If they did then where is the economy of scale in single locomotives, carriages or wagons? (I am, of course comparing like-for-like so a production run of 1000 locos vs. 1000 EMUs for example. Comparing a production run of 4000 locos vs 1000 of a 4-car EMU would give the outcome you've described but is not a fair comparison.) I get the impression that nowadays model trains are batch produced and in smaller numbers to reduce supply/drive up demand and hence give the manufacturers the chance to charge more. This doesn't change when you are making an EMU.

 

As another member has hinted, a way to reduce costs would be to make toolings that allow variations so you can create whole DMU/EMU families - for example Bachmann already make a Class 150 - this opens up the door to all Mk3 DMUs/EMUs (though Bratchell do offer kits for most of these now). Another example would be using the 166 as a basis for the Networker family. You can save costs by having overlapping development and between common parts (windows, basic body shells, bogies, cabs etc) and the multitude of liveries allows for a big return.

 

A kinda-sorta example of this is Hornby's new HST. The basic body shell is the same across all variants, but there is a facility to have different light clusters, units both with and without guards' windows, different cooling fan details, surrogate DVTs etc.  

[Talltim]

The economies of scale comment was more related to the fact that units really have to be sold as a set, so in effect you are forcing people to buy in bulk, but, unlike a bulk purchase of, for example three 16 ton minerals, it isn't any cheaper to make than a loco and three different coaches so there are no savings there to make the deal sweeter. The total cost of a 4 car EMU may be the same as a loco and three coaches, but you can't spread the cost as a consumer. This can put people off. People can more easily stomach the cost of two 2 car DMUs bought over a period of time than one 4 car EMU.

[jon_1066]

Could it also be a liveries issue?  There are such an array of operating companies with different liveries which seem to change rapidly and are also harder to apply (being fancier than a maroon coach with lining) that to sell a modern EMU would require many different items of stock and production runs.  By the time they get it to market the operating company could have lost it's franchise or changed it's livery so what was supposed to be a modern model is instantly old hat.

[fender]

Could it also be a liveries issue?  There are such an array of operating companies with different liveries which seem to change rapidly and are also harder to apply (being fancier than a maroon coach with lining) that to sell a modern EMU would require many different items of stock and production runs.  By the time they get it to market the operating company could have lost it's franchise or changed it's livery so what was supposed to be a modern model is instantly old hat.

 

that's true but then again it seems 'old hat' models sell a lot better!