Renationalisation call from prospective Labour MPs

[Coombe Barton]

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27273672

 

But party sources say no imminent decision.

[roythebus]

EU competition laws say it won't happen. More hot air from those who should know but don't.

[Kris]

Likely to have been said as they know that some people will vote for it. However like almost all politicians sounds like they have no grasp of reality. 

[hayfield]

I have no knowledge of how the rail system works. However from an outside observation there are too many companies with their noises in the troughs taking out too much money.

 

On the other side public ownership also has its faults, with civil servants being useless at delivering the product on time, within budget and when failing to deliver get promoted to another job or given a knighthood.

 

We should go back to the big four (or 8 whatever the number) regional companies responsible for the track, property, rolling stock, running etc of their part of the system. In addition you could have other companies which specialize in cross country traffic, owning their own stock but pay for using the others system.

 

Its no wonder we have some of the highest rail fares, when one company takes profits from owing the track, another taking out profits from owning the stock, a third company taking profits by hiring the track and stock from the other two and I guess there are other companies with their snouts in the trough. Finally the Government creaming off billions in fees and taxes

 

Call me a cynic but you could not dream up a system designed for companies to make so much from so little 

[phil-b259]

 

On the other side public ownership also has its faults, with civil servants being useless at delivering the product on time, within budget and when failing to deliver get promoted to another job or given a knighthood.

 

 

Not to mention the whole industry being far more influenced by the demands of the Treasury year on year. For all its faults under the current system (and there are many) at least there are two certainties.

 

(1) When Network Rails budget is fixed for a 5 year control period, it stays fixed. none of this arguing year on year with the bean counters in Whitehall over how much they are willing to release or under what sort of conditions

 

(2) Most of the time when a franchise the details of what is to be delivered are pretty much fixed for the following 5-10 years too. Again the chance for ministers or civil servants to interfere is minimised (though I do accept they tend to make up for this by trying to micromanage as much as they can when it comes to agreeing the franchise terms).

 

Its something the unions and those calling for renationalisation seem to forget. Short termism is the bane of British life and Westminster is amongst the worst offenders.

[hayfield]

I am not having a go at those who work in the industry and do a good job (Dawlish is a shining example).  But the number of companies, directors and shareholders is just ridiculous. Lets just have one company in private hands running the whole thing in their region

[jamie92208]

Perhaps they haven't realised that Network Rail was quietly renationalised late last year when the debts were re classified as being part of the national debt.  As the operating franchises are only limited life concessions we therefore have a nationalised system apart from the freight  and some engineering companies.

 

Jamie

[jjb1970]

The public - private argument is often presented as a simple argument when it is a very nuanced argument that defies simple sloganeering. There are certainly a lot of problems with the current set up but there are also a lot of things that are done well and the argument isn't so much about ownership as about service delivery and financing. And as has been pointed out there are EU factors in this which do not prevent state owned operators but do prevent a simplistic re-nationalisation idea. This ties in to the whole "cost of living crises" mantra which is trying to dumb down a whole series of issues and problems to a simple slogan that will appeal to a certain demographic. Given that those touting these slogans are fully aware of all of the issues behind them I find it rather distasteful.

[griffgriff]

Will this thread make the second page I wonder

[forest2807]

The French and the Germans (and many other European nations) seem to have figured out how to run a railway network. Can't we just copy their systems?

[byron]

EU competition laws say it won't happen. More hot air from those who should know but don't.

Please, please look over the side of your plate. EU competition law says no such thing. Take a trip to our neighbours (IrelandFrance/Holland?Germany etc.) and see for yourself how it can and does work.

The big difference is that those governments are not controlled by those with their snouts in the trough.

 

Mike

[PhilJ W]

The London Underground is in effect nationalised and suffers from political interference as a result. One of the good things though is that fares are not fixed on the basis of 'how much can we screw the travelling public for'.

[Oldddudders]

It is now 20 years since Railtrack became the Infrastructure Controller. In those years more new railway, in the form of capacity enhancements etc as well as HS1, has been created than in the 46 years of national ownership. The trains now are newer than ever before. As has been said, the industry response to Dawlish was positive and highly rewarding to watch.

 

Hard to see that Government control would improve on that lot, frankly.

[coachmann]

I've watched it go round and round countless times and I wonder why people aren't weary of the comfy banker-ridden Left-Right con that leaves voters exactly where they were when they were born.....As peasants! (I nearly wrote pedants...) 

[lmsforever]

Quoting the Irish rail system is dubious they are in meltdown in the south with the money run out and facing liquidation and serious job losses plus line closures ,this model is not working is it?The treasury runs our railways as it does everything else in the UK (whats left) and calls the tune that everyone dances to franchising and everything else is window dressing.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

EU comp. laws - if we vote to leave the EU then they wont matter. Should we get a new BR - or will it just be English Rail, then we might just get a joined up railway again.

 

Employee, user and enthusiast.

 

 

 

 

 

ps Various EU gov.s have various stakes in our system so already gov. owned - just wrong one !

[The Stationmaster]

The French and the Germans (and many other European nations) seem to have figured out how to run a railway network. Can't we just copy their systems?

I thought that they had copied us

[Catkins]

EU competition laws say it won't happen. More hot air from those who should know but don't.

  

The French and the Germans (and many other European nations) seem to have figured out how to run a railway network. Can't we just copy their systems?

IIRC - The EU competition 'laws' are framed in such a way that the main points are -

1 - The service provider HAS to be FINANCIALLY SEPARATE from the infrastructure provider.

2 - Any company can operate a train on the infrastructure (Open Access).

 

The way that the Europeans have done it, complying with point 1, is to have an infrastructure company - i.e Network Rail - responsible for the fixtures and fittings, with a train operating company - i.e. East Coast Trains - responsible for the train service. The open access side can be seen across Europe, mainly with freight operations like ACTS in Holland, or Railion in Germany/France/Benelux, or the Scandinavian countries with cross border operations.

[The Stationmaster]

Let's try to be grown up about this - firstly it is well nigh impossible to recreate BR because the experience needed to do so simply isn't there and the politicians wouldn't allow it.  Secondly some aspects of the present system do actually work quite well despite the far too close and detailed involvement of DafT and the RSSB and its bureaucrats trying to carve a role which is ever further divorced from both reality and responsibility.  Whatever else happens much of what is in private hands will remain there.

 

The $64,000 question really boils down to the passenger franchises and, probably, control of the (timetable) graph but in any case DafT is already effecting considerable influence over the latter through the Franchise process so 'renationalisation' won't exactly ring any startling changes in that respect.  DafT already has far too much control over passenger rolling stock so 'renationalisation' won't deliver any silver bullets there either, in fact things could possibly get even worse.

 

So what does that leave - the 'profits' going to the franchise holders is about all that I can think of.  Right - apart from the Virgin/Stagecoach cabal on the WCML which franchise holders are actually making vast profits which could be 'ploughed back into the industry' and how would those 'vast profits' be 'ploughed back' (and the answer certainly won't be in fare reductions I reckon);  answers on a postcard please.

 

As usual we are looking at a bunch of brain dead and semi-brain dead unimaginative politicos trying to con the peasants (which is how they see us) into voting them into a cushy job with a nice pension, few comebacks if they get it wrong, and a  good 'redundancy' deal if we throw them out for incompetence.  Unless, or until (being generous), they actually come up with a fully explained and costed way of making potential actions match their headline words I don't believe whatever comes out when they move their lips other than the passing of wind.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Just remember in the 1960's/70's politicians of both the main parties were happy to close lines and some made of fortune out of it! Now they all want to expand the railways and again now doubt indirectly personally profit from it.

 

Nothing has really changed as the railways are just a toy for the politicians to play with and use for their own ends. Passengers do not figure in their thinking!

 

 

XF

[trisonic]

Did BR ever have the financing it required? I remember the seventies  BR as being moribund, lacking resources with management and  staff being frustrated at almost every turn (which made the system seem incredibly boring). As a user (only) I hated the Blue years.

 

Best, Pete.

[hayfield]

Let's try to be grown up about this - firstly it is well nigh impossible to recreate BR because the experience needed to do so simply isn't there and the politicians wouldn't allow it.  Secondly some aspects of the present system do actually work quite well despite the far too close and detailed involvement of DafT and the RSSB and its bureaucrats trying to carve a role which is ever further divorced from both reality and responsibility.  Whatever else happens much of what is in private hands will remain there.

 

The $64,000 question really boils down to the passenger franchises and, probably, control of the (timetable) graph but in any case DafT is already effecting considerable influence over the latter through the Franchise process so 'renationalisation' won't exactly ring any startling changes in that respect.  DafT already has far too much control over passenger rolling stock so 'renationalisation' won't deliver any silver bullets there either, in fact things could possibly get even worse.

 

So what does that leave - the 'profits' going to the franchise holders is about all that I can think of.  Right - apart from the Virgin/Stagecoach cabal on the WCML which franchise holders are actually making vast profits which could be 'ploughed back into the industry' and how would those 'vast profits' be 'ploughed back' (and the answer certainly won't be in fare reductions I reckon);  answers on a postcard please.

 

As usual we are looking at a bunch of brain dead and semi-brain dead unimaginative politicos trying to con the peasants (which is how they see us) into voting them into a cushy job with a nice pension, few comebacks if they get it wrong, and a  good 'redundancy' deal if we throw them out for incompetence.  Unless, or until (being generous), they actually come up with a fully explained and costed way of making potential actions match their headline words I don't believe whatever comes out when they move their lips other than the passing of wind.

 

 

I am not for nationalization, on the other hand I see so many companies (not going bust) with their fingers in the pie. If it were not profitable then they would not be involved.

 

Look at the energy/fuel companies. The wholesale side make humungus profits whilst the retail makes little and we are told there is little profit in supplying energy. That is because the wholesale sides are charging there own retail (and others) sides too much.

 

If for instance the route from London to the West of the country was owned freehold by a company lock stock and barrel with costs controlled by a regulator with teeth, you would remove a whole raft of companies making financial capital out of the system. Have a simple cross country system bolted on which pays to use the infrastructure

[hayfield]

Did BR ever have the financing it required? I remember the seventies  BR as being moribund, lacking resources with management and  staff being frustrated at almost every turn (which made the system seem incredibly boring). As a user (only) I hated the Blue years.

 

Best, Pete.

 

 

Pete

 

Certainly in the 60's they did with the electrification of the West Coast main line, change from steam to diesel was around the same time

[scouser]

Please, please look over the side of your plate. EU competition law says no such thing. Take a trip to our neighbours (IrelandFrance/Holland?Germany etc.) and see for yourself how it can and does work.

The big difference is that those governments are not controlled by those with their snouts in the trough.

 

Mike

Both France and Germany currently have problems with costs and meetingEU rules. Given that the costs of running an efficient passenger railway are very high and that it is difficult if not impossible to name any country that knows how to do so, I would suggest that somebody could become very famous if they can come up with a solution!

[hayfield]

It seems to me the UK are the only mugs that stick to the rules, perhaps we should join the club fully and only abide by those rules we want to. EU competition rules should not prevent any country in running a service at an economical cost.