Govia Wins Thameslink Rail Franchise

[BR(S)]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27534731

[roundhouse]

Despite all the problems we have on the Southern network, I am pleased to see Govia win the Thameslink franchise.

 

To be fair to Southern (Govia), most of the problems we encounter are actually Network Rails issues mainly being signal failures etc.

 

Ian

['CHARD]

Very interesting.  Better get my head down and dissect the fleet and cascade implications....

[lmsforever]

Good result the passengers will benefit  from their focus on providing a good service ,wonder if the livery will be the southern one?

[stewartingram]

Well I for one will be very sorry to see FCC go. As a regular on the GN services from Huntingdon, I have nothing but praise for them. Reliability has been good, except for problems caused by others (one-unders, OHL problems etc which are down to NR, and we all know  why). OK trains could be better (317/321 - ouch), but they are limited in what they are able to get. And where they did score was their reaction to problems. Any incident causing delays was in my opinion quickly handled, maintaining a service or restoring it asap. I live in the real world and don't expect a fleet of buses revving up around the corner, they cope admirably.

As for the other route of Thameslink, they may have been worse, or it may have been vocal commuters, I really don't know.

 

Stewart

[cornelius]

Feels like a good decision to me. Although it won't magically make the existing Thameslink stock better perhaps they'll look after them better than FCC do until the new ones arrive. Best news is that the awful Gatwick Express units are finally for the chop.

[Karhedron]

I doubt that there will be any change to the existing stock. More likely everyone will need to wait until the new 700 class come on stream in about 2 years time (assuming no delays). The existing mix of Mk3 suburban stock of various flavours will then likely be refurbished before being redeployed to newly electrified areas.

 

Of course the 317s will be 35 years old by then so may be approaching life expiry. On the other hand, the PEP-derived stock is even older and that is still soldiering on so they may be around for a while yet.

[Mike Storey]

Interesting, but not surprising, that it is a management contract ( a bit like hiring a cleaning firm) due to all the commercial risks involved in opening up the new routes, bringing in new trains and brand new timetables, 4 years into a 7 year tenancy. The real test of the franchise operator, as opposed to the new hardware and timetable, will be from 2021, whomsoever wins that time. I agree that Southern and South Eastern have always had the edge for me, over FCC, as being more customer driven, but FCC did improve over time.

[roundhouse]

I am not a fan of FCC. They brought in evening peak ticket fares which just makes a muddle even for regular travellers. I had bought a zone 6 to St Albans one evening in the past from the ticket machine only to find it didnt work at the gaters at St Albans

 

Turns out that I forgot to buy a peak rather than an off peak ticket!!

 

I know some other parts of the country do that but not normally in the South East.

 

FCC services have improved in recent years and quite often more reliable than Southern from our station.

 

The FCC 377's already have grene interiors so SOuthern will only need to repaint  / revinyl the outside if they are allowed to match their own livery and soem 319's are still in Southern colours.

 

Ian

['CHARD]

I doubt that there will be any change to the existing stock. More likely everyone will need to wait until the new 700 class come on stream in about 2 years time (assuming no delays). The existing mix of Mk3 suburban stock of various flavours will then likely be refurbished before being redeployed to newly electrified areas.

 

Of course the 317s will be 35 years old by then so may be approaching life expiry. On the other hand, the PEP-derived stock is even older and that is still soldiering on so they may be around for a while yet.

Some 319s are off early-doors, displaced by box-fresh 387s from later this year.

 

Northern is relying on double figures' worth of AC EMUs by year end, as they are very adept at knitting in Lancashire.

[phil-b259]

Of course the 317s will be 35 years old by then so may be approaching life expiry. On the other hand, the PEP-derived stock is even older and that is still soldiering on so they may be around for a while yet.

 

Not on the new franchise though because as well as the new Thameslink stock plus the replacement of the 442s on the Gatwick runs, the press release talks about new trains for Moorgate services. Thus at the end of the franchise the stock will consist of:

 

New Hitachi Thameslink stock (in 12 and 8 car varients)

Existing class 455 flett for suburban duties (4 car)

Existing Electrostar stock to run the rest of the 3rd rail / Milton Keynes services (mix of 3 4 and 5 cars)

Existing Turbostars for the Uckfield & Marshlink lines (mix of 2 and 4 cars)

New Gatwick express units (27x 4 car or 18 x 6 car)

New GN suburban units (50x 3 car or 25x 6 car)

Existing Class 365s on Kings Cross - Kings Lyn (plus the residual Cambridge) duties (4 car)

 

The following will therefore have gone from the Franchise

 

442s

313s

317s

319s

Some of the existing Electrostar fleet (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

Possibly some of the 365s (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

[stewartingram]

Like I said, GN service has been good. The 365's are just going through another refurb, and appearing in the (Dft-inspired?) plain livery of pale grey. Apparently this is the new colour, with minimal vinyls to be applied by the TOC, as a cost saving exercise when a franchise changes.

I don't doubt the frontline staff will remain as before, TUPE'd over to the new TOC. Upper management will see some changes, with their new ideas (re-inventing the wheel?), otherwjise business as usual. I see from the GoVia press blurb they are claiming new routes though central London. (Surely all this has happenned without their input?). Also new trains are to be ordered (eg 313 replacements). Surely this would have had to happen anyway, given their age.

Cynical of the spin....me....NEVER.

 

Stewart

[stewartingram]

Not on the new franchise though because as well as the new Thameslink stock plus the replacement of the 442s on the Gatwick runs, the press release talks about new trains for Moorgate services. Thus at the end of the franchise the stock will consist of:

 

New Hitachi Thameslink stock (in 12 and 8 car varients)

Existing class 455 flett for suburban duties (4 car)

Existing Electrostar stock to run the rest of the 3rd rail / Milton Keynes services (mix of 3 4 and 5 cars)

Existing Turbostars for the Uckfield & Marshlink lines (mix of 2 and 4 cars)

New Gatwick express units (27x 4 car or 18 x 6 car)

New GN suburban units (50x 3 car or 25x 6 car)

Existing Class 365s on Kings Cross - Kings Lyn (plus the residual Cambridge) duties (4 car)

 

The following will therefore have gone from the Franchise

 

442s

313s

317s

319s

Some of the existing Electrostar fleet (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

Possibly some of the 365s (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

 

 

What about the cattle trucks 317 & 321 ?

 

Stewart

[jamie92208]

Not on the new franchise though because as well as the new Thameslink stock plus the replacement of the 442s on the Gatwick runs, the press release talks about new trains for Moorgate services. Thus at the end of the franchise the stock will consist of:

 

New Hitachi Thameslink stock (in 12 and 8 car varients)

Existing class 455 flett for suburban duties (4 car)

Existing Electrostar stock to run the rest of the 3rd rail / Milton Keynes services (mix of 3 4 and 5 cars)

Existing Turbostars for the Uckfield & Marshlink lines (mix of 2 and 4 cars)

New Gatwick express units (27x 4 car or 18 x 6 car)

New GN suburban units (50x 3 car or 25x 6 car)

Existing Class 365s on Kings Cross - Kings Lyn (plus the residual Cambridge) duties (4 car)

 

The following will therefore have gone from the Franchise

 

442s

313s

317s

319s

Some of the existing Electrostar fleet (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

Possibly some of the 365s (as it will have been replaced by the Hitachi stock as the Thameslink routes expand)

Aren't the new Thameslink units Siemens?.  The Incredibly Expensive train (HST replacement) is the Hitachi one. However the 319's are meant to be movingnnorth and to the Thames Valley aren't they though the Thameslink is so late due to financing nissues that the cascade timetable is somewhat screwed up.

 

Jamie

['CHARD]

What about the cattle trucks 317 & 321 ?

 

Stewart

Like Phil said, 317s will go. 321s, by virtue of their small, stopgap fleet size, will gravitate east to join their brethren at GAF I expect.

[phil-b259]

What about the cattle trucks 317 & 321 ?

 

Stewart

 

Going - remember post full implementation of the full Thameslink upgrade Peterborough, Letchworth and at least half of the Cambridge trains will continue south of the river. All that leaves in terms of non Thameslink GN (outer) services is trains to Kings Lyn (and possibly a few Cambridge trains) all of which can be handled by the 365 fleet

Aren't the new Thameslink units Siemens?.  The Incredibly Expensive train (HST replacement) is the Hitachi one. However the 319's are meant to be movingnnorth and to the Thames Valley aren't they though the Thameslink is so late due to financing nissues that the cascade timetable is somewhat screwed up.

 

Jamie

 

Sorry, I did indeed mean Siemens

['CHARD]

Aren't the new Thameslink units Siemens?.  The Incredibly Expensive train (HST replacement) is the Hitachi one.

 

Jamie

Aye. Thameslink Class 700s aka Siemens Desiro City.

[The Stationmaster]

Aren't the new Thameslink units Siemens?.  The Incredibly Expensive train (HST replacement) is the Hitachi one. However the 319's are meant to be movingnnorth and to the Thames Valley aren't they though the Thameslink is so late due to financing nissues that the cascade timetable is somewhat screwed up.

 

Jamie

It will be interesting to see if the 319s do make it to the Thames Valley - and what the passenger reaction to them will be (increased traffic on the M4 and M40 most likely plus busier car parks in Reading).

[cheesysmith]

If they are replacing the 442, can we have them re motored with ac drives and a panto put on top. Be perfect up north.

[phil-b259]

It will be interesting to see if the 319s do make it to the Thames Valley - and what the passenger reaction to them will be (increased traffic on the M4 and M40 most likely plus busier car parks in Reading).

 

It depends on what they do to them. One of the leasing companies has shown that with suitable refurbishment the similar vintage class 321 units can be transformed into what is (from a passengers point of view) a brand new train. Air con and the removal of the draughty hoper windows, new toilets new seats completely redecorated interior and IIRC at seat power points are all doable and will set the units up for another couple of decades of frontline service. Indeed they could well end up being far better than the current 165 & 166 fleet Thames Valley commuters get.

 

On the other hand if they are simply transferred "as is" then yes they will definitely represent a downgrade for passengers (given their current internal and external state) who may well decide driving to Reading is preferable.

['CHARD]

If they are replacing the 442, can we have them re motored with ac drives and a panto put on top. Be perfect up north.

Hmmmmmm..... Push-pull LHCS anyone?

[phil-b259]

If they are replacing the 442, can we have them re motored with ac drives and a panto put on top. Be perfect up north.

 

Nice idea, but not cost effective in this day and age. While new traction packages are indeed being trialled for certain units the reason is that there are rather a lot of units in certain classes that could benefit. For example the class 455 fleet numbers 137 examples in total and there are 61 sets of 315 units. Furthermore a 20m body length means such units are far more gauge friendly plus the fact that investment in designing a new traction package for say a 315 means it can also be easily applied to the 314 fleet, etc

 

By contrast the 422 fleet only has 24 units, is 23m long (so less flexible) and any new traction package cannot be 'transferred' to any other class to spread the cost. Also as Southern found having doors at the ends is a handicap on busy routes and its interesting to note that when South West trains ordered the 444s (which ended up displacing them, the doors were set inwards of the ends somewhat (though not at the 1/3rd & 2/3rd positions) which does have an effect on boarding and alighting times.

 

No I'm afraid baring any vehicles saved by the NRM / preservation groups its going to be razor blades for them (just like the Irish MK3s).

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Despite Southern being poor over the last year or so, they have been, for me, considerably better than Worst Group. I for one won't be sorry to see the shoddiness of FCC go...l just hope Southern get things better.

[phil-b259]

Hmmmmmm..... Push-pull LHCS anyone?

 

While a 73 (electric mode only thanks to the lack of ETH under diesel) or a class 33/1 can push / pull the units from a traction perspective (thanks to BRs decision to recycle the late 60s traction gear from the REP units in a new build bodyshell) what they cannot do is control things like the air conditioning or the doors.

 

The 442s also lack any form of TDM kit - the traditional SR high level jumpers being used so sticking a 67 on them is a no no. Furthermore I understand from a mate who works on the units at Stewards Lane depot that no two units are the same in wiring terms - Providing the right wires rand from one bit of kit to another the exact routing seemed to depend on who was doing the job on the day. In such an environment retro fitting another control system is simply too much hassle.

['CHARD]

Nice idea, but not cost effective in this day and age. While new traction packages are indeed being trialled for certain units the reason is that there are rather a lot of units in certain classes that could benefit. For example the class 455 fleet numbers 137 examples in total and there are 61 sets of 315 units. Furthermore a 20m body length means such units are far more gauge friendly plus the fact that investment in designing a new traction package for say a 315 means it can also be easily applied to the 314 fleet, etc

 

By contrast the 422 fleet only has 24 units, is 23m long (so less flexible) and any new traction package cannot be 'transferred' to any other class to spread the cost. Also as Southern found having doors at the ends is a handicap on busy routes and its interesting to note that when South West trains ordered the 444s (which ended up displacing them, the doors were set inwards of the ends somewhat (though not at the 1/3rd & 2/3rd positions) which does have an effect on boarding and alighting times.

 

No I'm afraid baring any vehicles saved by the NRM / preservation groups its going to be razor blades for them (just like the Irish MK3s).

MkIIIs with powered doors... Hmmm, seems like a potentially cost effective way of expanding the Chiltern fleet.

 

EDIT: Phil's comments noted. However, taking a MkIII caterer out of a field and rehabilitating/ converting/ rewiring IS far more expensive than using these basically sound, younger vehicles as a basis.