PECO 9"RADIUS SET TRACK & Heljan 2-6-2T

[Stevelewis]

I am building another!!  H0e layout, which has  some concealed return loops, due to laziness and  convenience I decided to try PECO 9" Rad 00-9 setrack for  these.

 

HOWEVER on test  I found  that several ROCO H0e locos  will NOT negotiate 9" curves*  ( something  which did not bother me  before  as all my  layouts  have  had  largish rad  curves)

 

My concern is  the  Heljan L&B 2-6-2T  I have not seen  any  specs for  this yet  but it could be that it may not be  suitable  for 9" rad curves  and  modellers  may be planning  ./building L&B themed  layouts using  some of Peco's Setrack.

 

I have  overcome  the  problem  by  re alighning the  loops  and  laying  them  to 11" radius using  flexible  track. 

 

*ROCOs  instruction books  do state min rad  10.5"

 

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I think  the  Peco introduction  of 009 setrack  whilst  being welcomed  as an easy way  of building  a narrow  Gauge  layout for  those  who dont  like  to use flexible track,  does present som other  problems as  the 2 available point types available  have  radii of  12" & 18", so unless it  is  Pecos intention to expand the setrack range in 009, means  that  if a parallel loop  (or sidng) is required, then flexible track will have to be  used anyway!

 

 

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

Steve,

 

I would have thought that the working relationship between PECO and Heljan in promoting compatible 009 rolling stock and the introduction of 009 Set Track should make this a given - however, who know's if PECO even considered it?

[mjcampbell]

The PECO set-track was introduced because it was commissioned by Minitrains, and is included in Minitrains train-sets. It follows that all Minitrains locos and stock (to date) cope with 9" radius, which given they are all short tank locos is no surprise. As yet there are no points to match (i.e. 9" radius or set-track) and I've heard nothing to suggest there will be, though of course the 12" or 18" radius points can be used. Ironically PECO used to make their 009 points to 9" radius until the late 1970's!

 

The PECO wagons and coaches apparently can take the 9" radius curves, which again is no surprise as PECO were working on both at the same time. However the Heljan loco is being developed independently of PECO or Minitrains. I'm quite sure they would have known about PECO releasing set-track early on in their development process, but a long 2-6-2 with outside frames and cylinders is always going to mean a compromise between scale, looks, and minimum radius. I'm sure I heard 12" as a suggested minimum, but I guess we won't know for certain until the prototypes are released for review. 

[Stevelewis]

The PECO set-track was introduced because it was commissioned by Minitrains, and is included in Minitrains train-sets. It follows that all Minitrains locos and stock (to date) cope with 9" radius, which given they are all short tank locos is no surprise. As yet there are no points to match (i.e. 9" radius or set-track) and I've heard nothing to suggest there will be, though of course the 12" or 18" radius points can be used. Ironically PECO used to make their 009 points to 9" radius until the late 1970's!

 

The PECO wagons and coaches apparently can take the 9" radius curves, which again is no surprise as PECO were working on both at the same time. However the Heljan loco is being developed independently of PECO or Minitrains. I'm quite sure they would have known about PECO releasing set-track early on in their development process, but a long 2-6-2 with outside frames and cylinders is always going to mean a compromise between scale, looks, and minimum radius. I'm sure I heard 12" as a suggested minimum, but I guess we won't know for certain until the prototypes are released for review. 

Yes I  remember  the   original  PECO  9" radius  points  I used  quite  a  few  of  those!!

 

As  mentioned  above  the  idead  of  using 9" rad  00-9  setrack  for  the   (hidden) reverse loops   was  abandoned  and  they  are  now  laid  to  13"  radius

 

There  will shortly  be  a number  of  Peco 00-9 setrack curves  offered  for  sale!!

 

As a matter  of  interest  is  there  any  feedback  around  on the  Minitrains  range?,  I may  be  interested  in  the  forthcoming 0-8-0  locos  as  the  means  to  an  end!!

[mjcampbell]

Plenty on the NGRM forum. The first Bigadelok locos are being delivered, reports suggest they are closer to 009 (1:76) then HOe (1:87) which is good news. The 009 society have them for a good price. 

 

I don't have any Minitrains myself except a chassis from the Fiddletown & Copperalis loco - the opportunity to acquire an outside-framed 0-4-0 chassis was too good to miss! Haven't quite decided what to build on it yet, but initial test running (balanced with a blob of blu-tak) show it is a superb runner. The Minitrains range is excellent and deserves to do well.

 

[Hobby]

The only Roco loco that I've not tried on 9" curves is the Electric, the 0-6-0TT, both 0-6-0Ts and the little diesel will...

[mjcampbell]

As a matter  of  interest  is  there  any  feedback  around  on the  Minitrains  range?,  I may  be  interested  in  the  forthcoming 0-8-0  locos  as  the  means  to  an  end!!

 

A friend showed me his recently delivered Bigadelok 0-8-0 on Friday and we gave it a test run. It looked very good, and ran superbly, it even has directional headlights. We didn't test it on tight curves though.

[Stevelewis]

The only Roco loco that I've not tried on 9" curves is the Electric, the 0-6-0TT, both 0-6-0Ts and the little diesel will...

The  1099  will not  take  9"  curves nor  will the  0-8-0 + TT loco  They  do  need 11" min 

 

The   above  mentioned  0-6-0 TT WILL run on  9" rad  without ptoblem

 

BUT  the  Big Lilliput   Diesel  and  the  little  OBB 2093  diesel  have  no  probs  at  all on 9"ad

 

Not  that  I am too concerned  as  the  proposed 9" rad   return loops have  been eliminated!

 

Phots  attd  inc  a  comparison phot  of  the   1099  and  the  big D13.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Stevelewis

[Hobby]

Ah, I'd forgot they did an Engarth! Doh!!

[rue_d_etropal]

I am amazed that Roco have designed their models for a larger minimum radius, as their N gauge 060 tank loco will happily trundle round far sharper curves. Although I have not tried the new Minitrains 080 , I would expect it to go round 9in radius, the prototype was pretty flexible. I would also expect both the new locos planned by Heljan for Peco and the new Bachmann ones will have no problem , otherwise the egg will be on their faces. Bachmann, in particular recommend 9in radius for their N gauge models, and supply it in their GF trainsets. I think it is actually Peco track as well.

This new interest in r2r OO9 will result in more people trying it, and they won't be happy if there are problems with the curves. Roco might have to think carefully, as they will be the odd ones out, and they are already working with Bachmann on other items(British OO track originally designed for Hornby).

[Hobby]

Bear in mind that Roco's HOe setrack minimum radius is 10.5" and I'm sure that all of their stuff will go round that. I think it's only Peco that insist on having such tight radii...

[Stevelewis]

I think  I  mentioned  somewhere  previously,  that  the  liniting  factor  with  the  engarth  0-8-0 TT  is  the  pivot  between  loco  & tender the loco has  cab doors  fitted  which pivot to allow  the  pivot to  occur  but  not  sufcient  for 9" rad  so  whilst  the 0-8-0 loco section easily  traverses 9" rad.  the  tender  section derails

 

The   1099 Electric's  minimum  radius  is limited  by  the  footsteps on the loco chassis  these prevent  bogie rotating for 9"rad    BUT  a  little  filing   on the  inside of  the  steps  will increase  the  bogiie rotating  and allow 9" rad  usage.

 

Re Minitrains  I have not  purchased  any of the locos  mainly  due to the  fact  they  dont  produce  what  I  want,  but  I have  had  heard  that whilst initially  they  run  well, eventually some  have  become   a little problematical,  wit pickup problems  etc   this is on layouts  where  other manufacturers locos continue to  run  without problems,

The  track is kept  clean  etc, and the Minitrains wheel treads  are cleaned  etc but  still poor running  occurs.

 

The  Engarth's  prices  keep  creeping  up,  well over  £250  now  ( I do know  of someone  who may  have  some S/H ones to sell PM me  if interested)

 

Pic  of  my  Zillertalbahn  Diesel on loan  to  the L&B ( which did not  close down in the  30s)  resprayed & weathered!!!!

Edited December 16, 2014 by Stevelewis

[Stevelewis]

Just  as  an  aside  and  off topic!  Should  anyone  be  wanting  to  purchase  a ROCO  1099 Co-Co,  Gaugemaster  are  selling  some  variants  at  the  reduced  price  of  just  under  £100  reduced  from  aroound  £129 ish,  and  free UPS  nect day  delivery  if  you  order  a  minimum  of  £150.

[rue_d_etropal]

My point about the 9in radius is that people are more likely to be buying the Peco track than the Roco  track, so that wil be the standard. It is perfectly OK for big N gauge locos. It might annoy some, but we are likely to see more OO9 layouts like the old rabbit warren ones than scale ones.

It sounds like it is not the wheels or the chassis but the extra 'detail' items that are causing the problems, and therefore can be sorted out.

 

As for cleaning track etc, I aways graphite my track which works as long as you are not pulling heavy trains.  I am always unsure about comment concerning long term use of models, as some do expect models to do longer stints than might be suitable for small motors and lightweight gearing. In the old days I remember some magazines did proper test running of new models, but this does not seem to happen these days.

Edited December 16, 2014 by rue_d_etropal

[Stevelewis]

For  info  re  long  running,  we  have run  a  Bachmann  Zillertal B0-B0  for  over 3 hours  no  problem  and a ROCO  0-8-0 TT  for  2  hours+  then  we  got  bored!!

 

I am  not  sure  if  the  setrack  issue  is  much  of  a  problem really , I may  be  incorrect  but  i  would  have  though  that  most modellers  would  use  Flexible  track anyway

[Hobby]

Depends on the circumstances. I have used the Roco set track several times as it allows me to have a tight curve with no risk of gauge tightening or kinks and still looks ok. 

 

Horses for courses...

[Stevelewis]

Depends on the circumstances. I have used the Roco set track several times as it allows me to have a tight curve with no risk of gauge tightening or kinks and still looks ok. 

 

Horses for courses...

I have  used  flexible  track in  many  gauges  from  Z  to  1 over several  years,  I  cannot  recall ever  having  problems  with 'Gauge  tightening' on  curves

 

As  far  as  kinks  are  concerned  I always  stagger  the  joints on  curves, it  takes  a  little extra planning  and  work when  laying  the  track  but  it definately  results  in  a  smooth  curve being  achieved.

[rue_d_etropal]

Gauge tightening does happen, it just might not be that noticable, To combat this Fleischmann set their 25cm radius HO track at 17mm , which might not seem much, but is enough. There is stil enough flexibility to connect to 16.5mm gauge.  I bent some Peco O16.5 track to a similar radius and noticed it was slightly tight on some wagons.

[Piskey]

My concern is  the  Heljan L&B 2-6-2T  I have not seen  any  specs for  this yet  but it could be that it may not be  suitable  for 9" rad curves  and  modellers  may be planning  ./building L&B themed  layouts using  some of Peco's Setrack.

 

 

A long time since you posted this, but ......

 

Having no previous experience with 00-9 I, too, have had concerns about the minimum radius for the soon-to-be-with-us Heljan L&B Manning Wardles and have been making enquiries.  After asking a lot of questions but only having two or three answers I gather that they will negotiate 9" radius, but not happily and only slowly.  They really need a minimum of the number 2 radius.  That set me off on another line of enquiry, again lots of questions asked and this time just one answer, from Hattons.  Number 2 radius is 10 ½".  And I've been told not to even think about anything less than 18" radius where Peco points are concerned.

[PaulRhB]

In reality 9 inches is only going to make much difference if you are squeezing in a very tight loop on a small baseboard.
So they are capable but both the loco and Peco coaches are going to look out of place on such sharp radii due to overhang. We don't generally expect a Hornby Pacific to go round Industrial R1 corners at full tilt so why expect a big 'mainline' NG loco to do it?
I'm managing to fit a run round loop and station in 3ft 3in length using the larger mainline 009 points and fit in three coaches, a scale model of Lynton would need 8ft. Using the set track points would only gain me a saving of 3 inches or so.
If two inches of baseboard width is so critical then why try to squeeze in L&B locos when there are plenty of nice Industrial style locos from Minitrains that are at home on tight radii.
Heljan have cunningly concealed the wider step in the frames to keep the pony wheels looking prototypical which no previous model kit did. You certainly won't get a Backwoods L&B loco round 9 inch radius!
Neither Heljan or Peco has ever claimed it was meant to go round 9 inch radius and it's a happy result it can.

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Hobby]

  And I've been told not to even think about anything less than 18" radius where Peco points are concerned.

 

I don't know where that came from but it's just not true. It would limit you to their Y point and Mainline only if it were true. I've had no issues with the Crazytrack 12" points on previous layouts.

 

The only reason to avoid the 9" points is that they are dead frog so short wheelbase locos can stall on them but many people use them (and the older setrack N points) without issues by making sure tracklaying is done carefully and everything kept clean.

[Edge]

Someone who tested the Heljan Wardle on NGRM said that it will go round 9 inch curves and points but with some drawbacks.

 

It will only negotiate them at slow speed and even then will look wrong as both front and rear bogies more or less come out of the side

[Stevelewis]

A long time since you posted this, but ......

 

Having no previous experience with 00-9 I, too, have had concerns about the minimum radius for the soon-to-be-with-us Heljan L&B Manning Wardles and have been making enquiries.  After asking a lot of questions but only having two or three answers I gather that they will negotiate 9" radius, but not happily and only slowly.  They really need a minimum of the number 2 radius.  That set me off on another line of enquiry, again lots of questions asked and this time just one answer, from Hattons.  Number 2 radius is 10 ½".  And I've been told not to even think about anything less than 18" radius where Peco points are concerned.

 

As  the  above posts  say  the   Manning  W  will  negotiate 9"  but only  just,

 

The  majority  of 00-9  will negotiate  9"  without  problems, infact  Minitrains are  marketing  set track  with  a  smaller  than  9" radius (around 7  I think).

 

Some  HOe  locos   from  Roco  will definitely not  negotiate 9"  ( Engarth 0-8-0 TT  &  Class 1091  Co co electric)  their  instructions  indicate  that  this  is  correct

 

I am  currently  involved  with  a 009 layout   loosely L&B  based  which  will/has got min radius of  11" ( give or  take   a MM or  so!!)

[BernardTPM]

Until they're actually out it's hard to test!

[Hobby]

Peco tested theirs on the curves (Peco were sent some direct by post from China for review purposes rather than with the rest sent in the container), that's where the info came from (via Andrew B at several NG shows).