Stuck in the tunnel

[roythebus]

Some of you may have heard of yet another Channel tunnel shuttle train being stuck for 3 hours on Tuesday 3rd June; I was one of those unfortunate enough to have been on that train going f rom Folkestone to Calais!! It was rather hot and sticky down there.

 

Quite what happened is unclear, but being a former railwayman put up with the delay and moanings of the gent driving the rather expensive Bentley convertible parked in front of me!

 

Basically the sequence of events was: leave England right time, about 8 minutes from Calais a brake application, nothing unusual there, except the stop was rather hard! Then a smell of electrical or brake blocks burning, again nothing unusual if it's brakes, with such a hard stop. then the lights went out; train attendant said there's a problem, trying to fix it; brake problem, had to reset the locos....this took a couple of hours, then we moved a few metres, stopped again...slowly a few more metres, stopped again. Lights still out, had to wait for assisting loco; then assisting loco sent away, breakdown crews coming in from Calais, more delays. Eventually the leading loco dragged the train into Calais at slow walking pace as it appears the brakes had been isolated.

 

The additional fun was at Calais, with no air to work the roller shutter doors, a lot of these had to be hand-wound to raise them and let us all out!!

 

I know Things Break in the most inconvenient places and that The Rules have to be followed for assisting trains etc., but why does it take Eurotunnel 3 hours to get an assisting loco onto a failed train and drag it out? There needs to be a shake-up in their breakdown recovery management. Delays of this duration seem to be happening all too often in the tunnel.

[Gary H]

At the end of the day, they have what is probably the most simple system in Europe. A relatively short line of A to B and back again with just a few cross overs in between.

Its been running a few years now, you'd think they would be well geared up for any eventuality by now but it still goes wrong!

I wouldn't expect a 3 hour delay waiting for recovery in the far north of Scotland, letalone such a high tech piece of infrastructure like the channel tunnel operation.

Not good enough and must try harder!

[big jim]

Im sure fat controller will enlighten us when he logs on next

 

On the plus side you probably got some rare traction!!

[Kenton]

All the fault of the French! We said we wanted a drain they translated it to mean train. Anyway isn't it all wearing out? Never liked the thing, wouldn't bother me if it was filled in.

[Smiffy2]

I use it all the time - in fact on Thursday - and I agree that although it looks a bit weary in places after 20 years the service is generally pretty good. The flexibility is the thing, and the freedom not to be robbed by Brittany Ferries!

[Edwin_m]

If you're worried about the safety of the tunnel, why not try the roll-on-roll-over ferry instead? 

[jjb1970]

I am a  pretty frequent traveler between London and Brussels and after getting used to the Eurostar service I'd not want to go back to flying. I've been lucky in never having suffered any disasters or problems. I've never used the shuttle service though.

[Corbs]

All the fault of the French! We said we wanted a drain they translated it to mean train. Anyway isn't it all wearing out? Never liked the thing, wouldn't bother me if it was filled in.

I'm the opposite, have used both Eurostar and Le Shuttle services and they were excellent, much preferred them to flying or sailing.

[Oldddudders]

Since moving here a decade ago the ferries and airlines haven't seen a euro of our money. Tunnel every time. My late wife always drove, I generally use Eurostar. Of course it has its bad days, but so does every transport medium.

[roythebus]

Yes, I'm not grumbling about the usual level of service (except trying to get back through UK border Controls at Calais, but that's not ET's fault), but the fact that it took over 3 hours to deal with a fault. I used 5 frequent traveller tickets last year, 15 return journeys, probably a similar number the previous 4 years and never really had any delays in the tunnel itself.

 

It's their way of dealing with the incidents that causes me concern. Mind you, I've subsequently had an email apologising for the delay of offering a full refund of the fare within a month.

 

I'm not at all worried about tunnel safety, after all it's a railway! Airports are a long drive away from me, 100 miles at least and with the 2 hour check-in, they are very unattractive.I don't use the ferries because I'm not the world's best sailor! I live about 20 minutes from the Cheriton terminal, so it's rather convenient to use the tunnel.

[byron]

Sadly, the days when an "operating reserve" was always available have gone, it was always the first thing those clever cost cutters got rid of. Sit back in the comfort of your chair, with a glass of your favourite tipple and consider.

A train fails in the tunnel. First job is protection of the line/train. Then to try and find the fault. Once the driver has some idea, the next move will be to try and make some sort of repair to get the train moving. Meanwhile, just in case a "thunderbird" needs to be manned and prepared. Once a pushor pull is decided to be the only course of action the rescue loco is sent either "bang road" or to the rear of the failure. Once on site, brake tests etc take place, and off you go. Three hours is a long time sat in the failed train, but time is a funny thing. To those on the ground, three hours passes very quickly. A safe railway is not a rushed corner cutting railway.

 

Mike

[Fat Controller]

Sadly, the days when an "operating reserve" was always available have gone, it was always the first thing those clever cost cutters got rid of. Sit back in the comfort of your chair, with a glass of your favourite tipple and consider.

A train fails in the tunnel. First job is protection of the line/train. Then to try and find the fault. Once the driver has some idea, the next move will be to try and make some sort of repair to get the train moving. Meanwhile, just in case a "thunderbird" needs to be manned and prepared. Once a pushor pull is decided to be the only course of action the rescue loco is sent either "bang road" or to the rear of the failure. Once on site, brake tests etc take place, and off you go. Three hours is a long time sat in the failed train, but time is a funny thing. To those on the ground, three hours passes very quickly. A safe railway is not a rushed corner cutting railway.

 

Mike

I was on holiday (indeed, still am ) so am even less able than normal to comment about things like this at ET. To echo what Mike says, it takes quite some time to put in the various protections before anyone can start doing anything on the ground ; apart from the normal protections on surface lines, aerodynamic protection has to be given before the driver can carry out a train inspection (the Piston Relief Ducts have to be confirmed shut, as otherwise, air-currents will knock you off your feet). The driver then has to proceed, on foot, along the cess, first down one side of the train, then down the other, which is a 1.5 km walk. Easy enough normally, but for anyone of normal stature, this has to be done in a semi-crouched manner. Hopefully, whilst the driver is enjoying his or her promenade (which can last upwards of an hour, depending where the fault is), someone has sought out and fired-up the rescue locos, found the drivers for them, and has the 'trouble-shooters' on their way. The rescue locos have to be at the front of the train, as they must have operational TVM.

All this takes time; for those on the train, especially if the juice is off, this can seem like an eternity. At the other end of the 'phone or radio, time passes incredibly quickly...

[82C]

More than likely euro tunnel control couldn't /wouldn't make a decision on how the assisting loco was going to operate.

This happens all the time huge delays happen on the UK network, junior controllers are terrified to make a decision without the say so of a more senior controller, who in turn won't make a decision without the day so of a director etc.

 

In the mean time staff and passengers are sat on a failed train in the middle of nowhere waiting for something to be done.

 

Rest assured though, this was an 'isolated incident' and of course 'lessons with be learnt' to 'prevent a repeat'

 

Great Western.

[Fat Controller]

More than likely euro tunnel control couldn't /wouldn't make a decision on how the assisting loco was going to operate.

This happens all the time huge delays happen on the UK network, junior controllers are terrified to make a decision without the say so of a more senior controller, who in turn won't make a decision without the day so of a director etc.

 

In the mean time staff and passengers are sat on a failed train in the middle of nowhere waiting for something to be done.

 

Rest assured though, this was an 'isolated incident' and of course 'lessons with be learnt' to 'prevent a repeat'

 

Great Western.

I will comment on this:-  'B******s'

[roythebus]

What's b*****s, the controllers not making decisions or "it doesn't happen often?

 

On the news yesterday another 3 hour delay in the tunnel... ET really should learn how to manage incidents better.

[DY444]

At the end of the day, they have what is probably the most simple system in Europe. A relatively short line of A to B and back again with just a few cross overs in between.

Its been running a few years now, you'd think they would be well geared up for any eventuality by now but it still goes wrong!

I wouldn't expect a 3 hour delay waiting for recovery in the far north of Scotland, letalone such a high tech piece of infrastructure like the channel tunnel operation.

Not good enough and must try harder!

It wasn't very long ago that an FGW HST sat down near Westbury with the brakes locked on the rear PC.  Took 5 or 6 hours to shift that basically because everyone involved was petrified of moving a train with no brakes on the rear vehicle.  Many simple (and safe) solutions were available to expedite the recovery but nobody was prepared to do any of them. 

 

I'm all for sticking to the rule book because history is littered with the tragic consequences of not doing so.  However in the past battle hardened operations people would realise that some scenarios just aren't catered for and improvise appropriately and safely.  Trouble is that such people don't exist anymore.

[Fat Controller]

What's b*****s, the controllers not making decisions or "it doesn't happen often?

 

On the news yesterday another 3 hour delay in the tunnel... ET really should learn how to manage incidents better.

It happens more often than I'd like, but I'd definitely defend controllers of whatever discipline (there are those who operate signalling, those who manage fixed-equipment, and those, like myself, who manage crew and rolling stock according to constraints imposed by others.) against accusation of unwillingness to take decisions.

Things do take longer than they would on a railway in the open air; before a train inspection can be carried out, all other trains (including those in the opposite tunnel) must reduce their speed to 100 kph and Piston-Relief Ducts must be shut. Only then can the driver be given permission to exit the cab and descend to track level; whilst this might seem excessive, the draughts caused by train movements can be sufficent to knock you to the ground. Once the driver has exited the cab, the train inspection can take up to an hour; rather than an upright walk along a ballast cess, the driver, unless of small stature, has to walk up to 1.5km in a crouched position, with a lamp in one hand and a radio in the other. The same constraints apply to interventions by the various types of technicians, be it rolling stock, track or OCS.

I'm curious about there having been another three-hour stoppage yesterday; I keep a close eye on BBC local news and travel, who receive a direct input from ET's Control Centre, on my days off (sad, I know), and have seen no reports of this nature since my return from France on Sunday. Where was this reported?

[roythebus]

BBC Radio Kent reported the delays.

 

Thanks for the info about the train protection, I assumed there had to be something like that in place. Having worked on the Underground many years ago as well as BR and heritage lines, I'm aware of the protection procedures; the general public aren't, and they tend to get "very vocal" when "nothing is being done".

[Fat Controller]

BBC Radio Kent reported the delays.

 

Thanks for the info about the train protection, I assumed there had to be something like that in place. Having worked on the Underground many years ago as well as BR and heritage lines, I'm aware of the protection procedures; the general public aren't, and they tend to get "very vocal" when "nothing is being done".

Was it a 'three-hour delay' or a 'three-hour stoppage'? The former can arise, especially for the HGV service midweek, after just a couple of cancellations of trains. These might be totally unrelated to anything in the tunnel, but due to something like a door seal failing to inflate properly, a lorry hitting part of the rolling stock structure, or even a lorry-driver losing his keys. Load levels during the majority of the day can be approaching 100%, so it doesn't take much to start traffic backing up. Likewise, a problem on the M20 or M25 can mean no traffic at all for a while, and then it's as if someone's taken the cork out of a bottle. This can show up as a 'two-hour wait' on the BBC site, even though it's due to problems elsewhere.

I'd agree with the comments about the public getting 'vocal' when incidents occur; I did three years on train crew in the early days, and had my share of stoppages. I remember one such, where I spent two hours walking up and down reassuring people- after the third time of passing one car, an elderly passenger said 'Don't worry, dear- I can see it's not your fault'. Others would proffer drinks or snacks- I must have looked leaner and hungrier in those days...

I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to 03:30 on Friday..

[Kenton]

 

Trouble is that such people don't exist anymore.

They do - but perhaps not for ET. Or, more likely the case, their priorities are taken up with more life threatening scenarios like terrorist threats, border control, fires, floods, collisions ... Perhaps in the "cost equation" a 3 hour delay is acceptable in terms of "loss". What is 3hr when it comes to motorway delays? Inconvenience sure - more for some than others. I'm not saying that an individual's delay on a train is not of concern and inconvenient, just that in the bigger global picture it is pretty insignificant. No one died!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I'm aware of the protection procedures; the general public aren't, and they tend to get "very vocal" when "nothing is being done".

This miniscule sampling of 'the public' gets vocal when there is zero information. I will never be entirely happy sat in a motorway queue, airport departure lounge, adrift ship, or a stationary train. But tell me clearly, promptly, and with regular timed updates exactly what is happening and I will patiently wait. Create an information blackout, and I will decide that incompetence is in charge today and go on to make a ruckus about it.

 

And surely I am not the only one reading this thread who feels that an operative required to walk 1.5 km in a crouched position to perform an essential inspection process is a seriously outdated concept?

[Fat Controller]

This miniscule sampling of 'the public' gets vocal when there is zero information. I will never be entirely happy sat in a motorway queue, airport departure lounge, adrift ship, or a stationary train. But tell me clearly, promptly, and with regular timed updates exactly what is happening and I will patiently wait. Create an information blackout, and I will decide that incompetence is in charge today and go on to make a ruckus about it.

 

And surely I am not the only one reading this thread who feels that an operative required to walk 1.5 km in a crouched position to perform an essential inspection process is a seriously outdated concept?

The problem with giving out information is always how much to give, how often to update it and, in Eurotunnel's case, how to diffuse it in two languages. During the evolution of an incident, the information will change; should passengers have heard one announcement, but missed another, or perhaps only partially heard one, then they will complain about the inconsistencies, and assume they're not being told the truth. If you give too much detail, you might cause unneccessary alarm; not enough, then you risk being accused of being economical with the truth. Even with internal communication, information can change during the process of making a dozen calls, leading to people saying 'that's not what you told them'

I'd agree that the crouched walk is perhaps not ideal; however, I'm pushed to see how else such an inspection might be done. Bear in mind that the inspection will be the result of an alarm in either the train itself or, more usually, in the Control Centre; the inspection is to confirm, or refute, the alarm. This has to be done locally. A couple of my drivers, now retired, commissioned locos, and trained drivers on various iron-ore railways in Africa; they were issued with trail bikes to ride along the cess, as a 4 km walk in 40 degrees was considered a bit excessive.. I suppose we could give ours BMXs..

[PhilH]

'found the drivers for them'

 

I would have thought that this was quite time consuming, I can't imagine they'd have spares sat around just waiting for something to break down.

[Fat Controller]

'found the drivers for them'

 

I would have thought that this was quite time consuming, I can't imagine they'd have spares sat around just waiting for something to break down.

The 'Thunderbirds' are normally the Krupp locos used to haul works trains; the drivers are from the pool that work these trains, and so mainly work nights and weekends. There will be a couple around to cover yard movements outside of these times; the problem arises when the first pair fails, and a second (with drivers) has to be found to rescue both them, and the incident train.

[Oldddudders]

'found the drivers for them'

 

I would have thought that this was quite time consuming, I can't imagine they'd have spares sat around just waiting for something to break down.

And that's been the case for decades. Spare traincrew on a daily basis hardly exist. BR didn't want them as it had Treasury targets to meet, TOCs don't want them as they have a profit motive and the occasional use such spare bodies provide can't be made to stack up. And, just like locos and rolling stock, the spare bodies are never where they're needed in the emergency on the day, so justifying them to the Finance Director on the basis that they save money by avoiding delays requires an awful lot of doing.

 

Only if there were a franchise requirement for the TOC to run a specified % of spares on a daily basis would this happen - and then only if the TOC could manage full establishments at every depot, which in itself is a challenge. With a "market" in traincrew, the lower-order TOCs struggle to retain staff, even in a recession.